At this point, "New 52" isn't that bad at all.

[John Venus]

All of new 52’s best stories were things that could have easily occurred in the pre-flashpoint era...some of them with more emotional heft

Darkseid war would have had way more impact if the characters even knew who the anti-monitor was

Cyborg’s inclusion in the justice league would have landed better if cyborg was still a teen titan before becoming a member of the league

Among other examples

Even though I think the Titans should be their own brand rather than a spin off or sub set of the League, there are some Titan characters who would have worked on the League.

Cyborg and Wally are an underrated duo especially when they teamed up in Wally's title. The two of them on the League together alongside Roy would have been a dream come true. It would have also made Cyborg feel less isolated on the team if he had a friend whom he had a long history with on the League.

[AJpyro]

A mark I do have against nu 52 is how long it took Cyborg to have a solo series compared to JL debut back in 2011.

the big 3 were shoe-ins to have solos. GL was still ongoing. Flash and Aquaman got their new stuff. Shazam and Cyborg were held back too long.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Too late; I already locked the classroom doors. I'm not taking on any TAs, but I'll announce it if I do. In the meantime, no need to inquire.

Almost all of the flagship titles were received significantly better as voted by regular, everyday readers according to that site comics roundup. Let's think: who more authentically represents the preferences of the fanbase: the actual fanbase themselves, or paid comic journalists and vested industry insiders? It's okay; you don't have to answer. The user ratings are clear. Meanwhile, a "critic" is a person who expresses an opinion on something, and regular users ARE critics. They're probably the truest critics specifically because they don't get paid. That's probably a good thing; it helps eliminate a few biases. I can't imagine anyone arguing against that. With that said: the fanbase has spoken. Meanwhile, professional critics -- which is what you are forced to rely on for your argument -- do not represent the will of the fans. Such critics may be useful in providing recommendations: their use is prescriptive, not descriptive, and they very often completely miss the mark. Think of any book or film you read or watched based on reviews and it turned out to be goat ****. We've all been there -- lots of times. In the meantime, try to keep a finger on the pulse of the real, everyday fans if you want the most authentic representation.

For those who missed yesterday's lesson, feast your eyes:




Alright, it's time for recess folks, then I'm giving you a free period for the rest of the day. Be good now, and remember -- Truth, Justice, and the American Way, even when it sucks.

LOL. I already debunked pretty much this entire argument that you already made. If you need a refresher:

Ratings for every issue Nightwing since the beginning of Tom Taylor's run: 9.2, 9.1, 9.2, 9.2, 8.7, 9.3; Also the actual CRITIC rating for the New 52 Nightwing and the current run is tied at 7.5

The current volume of Justice League has also done better with critics than the New 52 run, with scores of 8.0 and 7.7 respectively.

The CRITIC rating for Wonder Woman New 52 was 7.5; the rating for the Rebirth run of Wonder Woman is 7.7

As is the case with Nightwing, the CRITIC score for Action Comics for both the Rebirth and New 52 runs are tied at 7.6; the most RECENT issues of Action however have scored 8.2, 8.7, 8.6, and 8.5.

Again the CRITIC score for Superman during the New 52 was 6.5 compared to 8.0 for the Rebirth run and 7.7 for the current volume. So, yeah, BIG jump up in quality there from New 52 into Rebirth.

And again, the CRITIC score for the New 52 Flash series was 7.4 compared to 8.0 for the current run.

And lastly, the CRITIC score for Detective Comics in the New 52 was 7.1 whereas the CURRENT volume sits at 8.1.

So, nice try...but no cigar. Again, were we not talking about the CRITICAL consensus? I mean, that is what you said in your initial post: that the CRITICAL consensus around the New 52 proved that it was a success. This is what you said.

Again, you said that the New 52 was critically successful. So...again, ON AVERAGE, the series after the New 52 are still better reviewed than the New 52 ones. You can't move the goalposts now. And what do you think critics are?? They're fans. They're fans who love comics so much that they choose to review comics professionally.

As for who "more authentically represents the fandom," well I'd rather trust the source that I know actually READ the thing and whose thoughts I can read in an actual review over an anonymous commenter/rater who I can't verify actually read what they're talking about. And, for that matter, a lot of those "scores" are tabulated from people who don't read the thing but want to either condemn or support it on principle.

Also, nice try cherry-picking certain issues of Justice League. However, let's actually see how Scott Snyder's 2018 run (the start of the current volume) stacked up against the beginning of Johns's New 52 run.

Here's the beginning of the New 52 run:

Screen Shot 2021-08-19 at 2.07.10 PM.jpg

Here is Scott Snyder's 2018 run:

Screen Shot 2021-08-19 at 2.06.38 PM.jpg

So, yeah...you can cut out the "schooled" act because you're not "schooling" anybody. You're just showing that you can't admit when you're wrong.

But, in the end, this back and forth is pointless. The New 52 is over. It's not coming back. And that's in large part because DC saw the fact that a lot of the changes brought about by the New 52 were not popular. Like, honestly, that's common knowledge at this point. If the New 52 was so popular, we would still be in New 52 continuity and, sorry, but we're really not. If you can't see that, you're just burying your head in the sand.

[ducklord]

Continuity in a shared universe is always a tricky beast. Here's my impression of DC's throughout its 80+ year history:

Golden Age - "Yeah, some of these stories contradict each other, but who cares? Comics are for kids, wheee!"

Silver Age - "Okay, we're going to start caring about continuity. All the old stories happened on Earth-2. What do you mean we accidentally created a separate Wonder Girl? Okay, we'll explain that. Sure hope that doesn't come to bite us in the ass later."

Bronze Age - "Okay some of that Silver Age stuff was a little embarrassing (looking at you, Mopee), but we'll go on pretending that our continuity is one continuous stream by studiously ignoring the dumb stuff and consigning a few stories to Earth-B (like that one where Hawk and Dove were suddenly in their 30's). Steady as she goes."

Crisis - "Okay, the gross accumulation of our silly stuff was too much. Let's push the Big Red Reset Button."

Post-Crisis - "Most of the Silver Age stuff you liked probably still happened (except for Wonder Woman and Hawkman, and about 50% of Superman). There's now a shared history between the Golden Age and Silver Age (yay!), which has erased the Golden Age Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, and a few others, making Roy Thomas sad (boo!). Also, there's no Superboy in the Legion (argh). Still, 90% of our characters are mostly the same as they were pre-Crisis, and this is our mostly well-organized continuity going forward for the next 25 years! Please enjoy the next two decades of annual events, most of which tie in reasonably well to our professionally edited ongoing titles."

Zero Hour - "We realize that we screwed up Hawkman's continuity. Here's a fix that won't stick. Also, Mike Carlin hates the JSA."

Infinite Crisis - "Getting rid of Wonder Woman's history was dumb. We're sorry. Also, sorry about the Byrne Doom Patrol. Also, here's a bunch of heroes getting violently killed, and a new multiverse."

Flashpoint - "Here's a summer crossover about the Flash. Oh wait, it's a sudden unexpected, and not thoroughly planned reboot."

New 52 - "90% of our characters have been rebooted, except for the Batman and Green Lantern franchises, a) because they sell well, and b) we're afraid that Grant Morrison will feed us to a metatextual demon. We promise this isn't a hard reboot, even though it clearly is. Please enjoy these titles, a third of which are reboots, a third of which appear to have been hastily re-written to accommodate this reboot, and a third of which seem to be pitches for characters we had lying around the office. Also, for some apparent reason, Liefeld."

Rebirth - "Okay, we recognize that doing away with almost all of our continuity and replacing it with several years of middling line-wide cohesion has annoyed a lot of you. So now we're going to hamfistedly re-insert the pre-Flashpoint continuity back into our line starting right now via special guest star Dr. Manhattan."

Doomsday Clock - "Hey, look over here! I'm the vehicle for Rebirth! Oh dear, I seem to be slowwwwwwwing dowwwwwwnnnn... um, nevermind!"

Metal/Death Metal - "It all happened! What does it mean? Who cares, 'cause it's so freakin' cool! (squeedily air guitar sounds)"

Infinite Frontier - "Surprise, it's a mostly coherent story set in our freshly rebooted, mostly pre-Flashpoint multiverse! If you don't ask us too many tough questions about the New52, can we all pretend it never happened?"

[Menacer]

Continuity in a shared universe is always a tricky beast. Here's my impression of DC's throughout its 80+ year history:

Golden Age - "Yeah, some of these stories contradict each other, but who cares? Comics are for kids, wheee!"

Silver Age - "Okay, we're going to start caring about continuity. All the old stories happened on Earth-2. What do you mean we accidentally created a separate Wonder Girl? Okay, we'll explain that. Sure hope that doesn't come to bite us in the ass later."

Bronze Age - "Okay some of that Silver Age stuff was a little embarrassing (looking at you, Mopee), but we'll go on pretending that our continuity is one continuous stream by studiously ignoring the dumb stuff and consigning a few stories to Earth-B (like that one where Hawk and Dove were suddenly in their 30's). Steady as she goes."

Crisis - "Okay, the gross accumulation of our silly stuff was too much. Let's push the Big Red Reset Button."

Post-Crisis - "Most of the Silver Age stuff you liked probably still happened (except for Wonder Woman and Hawkman, and about 50% of Superman). There's now a shared history between the Golden Age and Silver Age (yay!), which has erased the Golden Age Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, and a few others, making Roy Thomas sad (boo!). Also, there's no Superboy in the Legion (argh). Still, 90% of our characters are mostly the same as they were pre-Crisis, and this is our mostly well-organized continuity going forward for the next 25 years! Please enjoy the next two decades of annual events, most of which tie in reasonably well to our professionally edited ongoing titles."

Zero Hour - "We realize that we screwed up Hawkman's continuity. Here's a fix that won't stick. Also, Mike Carlin hates the JSA."

Infinite Crisis - "Getting rid of Wonder Woman's history was dumb. We're sorry. Also, sorry about the Byrne Doom Patrol. Also, here's a bunch of heroes getting violently killed, and a new multiverse."

Flashpoint - "Here's a summer crossover about the Flash. Oh wait, it's a sudden unexpected, and not thoroughly planned reboot."

New 52 - "90% of our characters have been rebooted, except for the Batman and Green Lantern franchises, a) because they sell well, and b) we're afraid that Grant Morrison will feed us to a metatextual demon. We promise this isn't a hard reboot, even though it clearly is. Please enjoy these titles, a third of which are reboots, a third of which appear to have been hastily re-written to accommodate this reboot, and a third of which seem to be pitches for characters we had lying around the office. Also, for some apparent reason, Liefeld."

Rebirth - "Okay, we recognize that doing away with almost all of our continuity and replacing it with several years of middling line-wide cohesion has annoyed a lot of you. So now we're going to hamfistedly re-insert the pre-Flashpoint continuity back into our line starting right now via special guest star Dr. Manhattan."

Doomsday Clock - "Hey, look over here! I'm the vehicle for Rebirth! Oh dear, I seem to be slowwwwwwwing dowwwwwwnnnn... um, nevermind!"

Metal/Death Metal - "It all happened! What does it mean? Who cares, 'cause it's so freakin' cool! (squeedily air guitar sounds)"

Infinite Frontier - "Surprise, it's a mostly coherent story set in our freshly rebooted, mostly pre-Flashpoint multiverse! If you don't ask us too many tough questions about the New52, can we all pretend it never happened?"

Appears to be written by a cynical "fan"

But okay yah thats a "summary"

[Bruce Wayne]

Definitely not most.

Very tiny hardcore fan.

Vast majority dont care bro.

You think the casuals are the ones buying DC's 50 Batman titles each month? The bread and butter are still the hardcore fans. They matter to DC's bottom line. So it's in DC's interest to keep them happy. Trying to write them off to play to a silent non-existent majority doesn't work.

[Iclifton]

Gotta agree with a lot of the posters here, many of the New 52 books quality ranged from average to bad. Do not miss that era.

I gotta admit though, Animal Man and Swamp Thing were truly special! Do not know if DC has published a series as good since.

[InfamousBG]

DC's sales would suggest otherwise.

Dude is just very misinformed.

[Citizen Kane]

Acceptance is always healthier than denial, but not everybody is at that stage. In the meantime, it's best to nod your head in silence and allow them to naturally process their grief.

This user has to be trolling at this point. I, for one, don't see the appeal. I bid this thread adieu.

[Stanlos]

I really REEEEEALLY enjoyed New52 a lot and will forever be sad that universe ended. I had a lot of fun.

I am happy for you, Besouro. I wish it had never been as it did more harm than good. DiDio and Johns were way too long in power and practically broke the DCU completely

[InfamousBG]

DiDio and Johns were way too long in power and practically broke the DCU completely

This so much this...and I am kind of a fan of Johns.

[ducklord]

Appears to be written by a cynical "fan"

But okay yah thats a "summary"

Not cynical these days, just old and silly.

Believe it or not, I do sympathize with fans who were brought in with the New52. Lee collars and Liefeld aside, it had a lot of potential.

This is where I would normally relitigate for the umpeenth time how that potential was squandered, but that's counter-productive as heck. Instead, I will hope that the occasional nuggets of gold in the New 52 somehow weave their way back into the ongoing continuity, which appears to be mostly ignoring it.

[Anthony Shaw]

DiDio and Johns were way too long in power and practically broke the DCU completely

I totally agree.

[Bruce Wayne]

I gotta admit though, Animal Man and Swamp Thing were truly special! Do not know if DC has published a series as good since.

AM/ST were books that Johns (and apparently Berger) had been setting up since Brightest Day. For example Lemire/Snyder were his picks. Even if FP hadn't happened, they would still have been published.

[Menacer]

You think the casuals are the ones buying DC's 50 Batman titles each month? The bread and butter are still the hardcore fans. They matter to DC's bottom line. So it's in DC's interest to keep them happy. Trying to write them off to play to a silent non-existent majority doesn't work.

Definitely not doing what your saying.

What im saying is for the average hardcore fan (ie buying weekly trades and issues) the continuity is easily cohesive enough that they dont need to nitpick it.

Its hard to get a metric of some of what we are discussing.

But even a book like Heroes in Crisis. Mostly hated on this forum.

On goodreads its just under 3.5 stars out of 5. Ie 70% approval out of 1830ish ratings.

Identity Crisis. Also commonly hated here... has over 20000 ratings and over 4 stars. 80% positive.

I could go on and on.

This forum and its 50 yr old jaded fans is a horrible metric for what is loved in the dc universe.

Hardcore fans arent the same as hardcore anal nitpicker fans.