At this point, "New 52" isn't that bad at all.

[Alkaeus]

DC also barely capitalized at all on Static and the other Milestone characters until very recently. Once Static's Nu52 ongoing was cancelled that was it until the most recent ongoing.

In fairness to DC, the Milestone characters were tangled up with a legal dispute with McDuffie's widow, so they might not have been able to publish much.

[Psy-lock]

Also, New 52 WW sold like hotcakes and was a very good series while Azzarello was at the helm. Yes, it ruffled feathers with long time fans, but it was IMHO for the best because the Amazon's society is deeply fucked up and most WW writers hard-on on making Zeus and all male mythical characters inherently bad is really tiring when they totally downplay all the **** that the goddesses did (if you hate Heracles for enslaving the Amazons, hate on Hera who turned him mad and had him kill his whole fucking family and then having to atone for it!).

Wut? Hera was never portrayed in a particularly sympathetic light, and the main antagonist of pre-New 52 Wonder Woman was Circe, a female goddess. Eris and Medusa were also evil.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Also, New 52 WW sold like hotcakes and was a very good series while Azzarello was at the helm. Yes, it ruffled feathers with long time fans, but it was IMHO for the best because the Amazon's society is deeply fucked up and most WW writers hard-on on making Zeus and all male mythical characters inherently bad is really tiring when they totally downplay all the **** that the goddesses did (if you hate Heracles for enslaving the Amazons, hate on Hera who turned him mad and had him kill his whole fucking family and then having to atone for it!).

I think I've pointed this out to you before, but...many Greek myths were meant to vilify and alienate powerful women. Ever read The Bacchanae? It's basically a propaganda piece for the idea of "women needs to be controlled." The myths of the Amazons were also meant to showcase powerful women in a negative light, by portraying them as barbaric and unruly because "women without men to control them are savages" and all that nonsense.

So, Marston's portrayal of the Amazons as an actual peaceful society for the most part was a subversion of that sexist, misogynistic portrayal. And of course, that's not to say that the Amazons pre-New 52 were perfect. There were still many stories that hinged on internal strife, such as the rift between Hippolyta and Antiope and the resulting tension between the different tribes of Amazons.

But, yeah, portraying the Amazons as baby-trafficking, murdering pirates kind of plays into the same misogynistic tropes that Marston was attempting to disprove and subvert.

[Korath]

I think I've pointed this out to you before, but...many Greek myths were meant to vilify and alienate powerful women. Ever read The Bacchanae? It's basically a propaganda piece for the idea of "women needs to be controlled." The myths of the Amazons were also meant to showcase powerful women in a negative light, by portraying them as barbaric and unruly because "women without men to control them are savages" and all that nonsense.

So, Marston's portrayal of the Amazons as an actual peaceful society for the most part was a subversion of that sexist, misogynistic portrayal. And of course, that's not to say that the Amazons pre-New 52 were perfect. There were still many stories that hinged on internal strife, such as the rift between Hippolyta and Antiope and the resulting tension between the different tribes of Amazons.

But, yeah, portraying the Amazons as baby-trafficking, murdering pirates kind of plays into the same misogynistic tropes that Marston was attempting to disprove and subvert.

The Amazons being all smile and gentle only hide the fact that Marston's are just as bad as Azzarello's. Only, they are polite and gentle and don't speak about the fact that they are a segregationist and isolationist society which clearly divide the world between firmly entranced lines decided at random at birth and upon which the vast majority of peoples have no choice about.

If he had created a perfectly equal, or even a society with women dominating socially but better than the rest of the world's, it'd be one thing. But he didn't create a perfect society where no task is demeaning or masculine or feminine, or one where woman have all the levers of power but actually treat well men and don't abuse their positions to satisfy their selfish impulses and aggrandize themselves.

He created a perfect - or at least a better - society of sexists who deem that all Men are bad because of Herakles (without, once more, taking into account the fact that Hera drove him mad and had him kill his whole family, leading to him having to endure ten tasks to redeem himself and be pardoned, with two added tasks because two of them were not validated for reasons which are... well, apparently they exists and I guess ten wasn't enough for a great hero anyway?) and clearly uphold the view that the rest of the world is a shithole they shouldn't even try to help again because they failed to do that thousands of years ago, because one of their patron goddesses was a bitch. And Hera wasn't the only one at that. Ever heard of Arachne and Athena ?

[Gaius]

I liked All-Star Western. That was a fun book.

Wut? Hera was never portrayed in a particularly sympathetic light, and the main antagonist of pre-New 52 Wonder Woman was Circe, a female goddess. Eris and Medusa were also evil.

Or that Hermes, a dude last I checked, was one of the island's creators and helped bring Diana to life.

[MajorHoy]

New 52 was a fun era, but people still complained about DC a lot back then also. I'd say the only time this forum didn't complain a lot was around the start of rebirth.

But the problem with Rebirth was that it started with a return of "HOPE" for a better DC, but quickly turned more into Stillbirth when things became even darker and hopeless while we were all stuck waiting (and waiting . . . and waiting . . . ) to see if/what might (eventually) result from Doomsday Clock.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

The Amazons being all smile and gentle only hide the fact that Marston's are just as bad as Azzarello's. Only, they are polite and gentle and don't speak about the fact that they are a segregationist and isolationist society which clearly divide the world between firmly entranced lines decided at random at birth and upon which the vast majority of peoples have no choice about.

No, no they're really not. And again, you've missed the point. You can call them "segregationist" and "isolationist" but doing is ignorant of the actual circumstances of their existence, both the real-world and fictional circumstances.

Marston would have grown up at a time when it was a novel idea that women would even have the right to vote and when women were very much segregated and alienated from the larger society as a whole. And in a lot of ways, women still are alienated and marginalized in everyday life. Women are routinely vilified for seeking power in a way that men are not. The U.S. just elected our first female Vice President. And as things stand, there is still somehow a reticence to seeing women in power and even when women perform the same functions as male counterparts in society, they still are paid less than those male counterparts.

So, the idea of a female-run society that was not only functional, but also prosperous was (and unfortunately still very much is) a subversion of the limitations that have been placed on women by a sexist society.

On top of that, in-universe, the Amazons were literally, ya know, enslaved by men and then Post-Crisis were explained to be reincarnated from the souls of women who had been killed by men. So...yeah, their "isolation" was kind of forced upon them.

If he had created a perfectly equal, or even a society with women dominating socially but better than the rest of the world's, it'd be one thing. But he didn't create a perfect society where no task is demeaning or masculine or feminine, or one where woman have all the levers of power but actually treat well men and don't abuse their positions to satisfy their selfish impulses and aggrandize themselves.

He created a perfect - or at least a better - society of sexists who deem that all Men are bad because of Herakles (without, once more, taking into account the fact that Hera drove him mad and had him kill his whole family, leading to him having to endure ten tasks to redeem himself and be pardoned, with two added tasks because two of them were not validated for reasons which are... well, apparently they exists and I guess ten wasn't enough for a great hero anyway?) and clearly uphold the view that the rest of the world is a shithole they shouldn't even try to help again because they failed to do that thousands of years ago, because one of their patron goddesses was a bitch. And Hera wasn't the only one at that. Ever heard of Arachne and Athena ?

Again, NOT perfect. Not by any means. At least not any more perfect than the likes of DC's Atlanteans or Marvel's Asgardians or the Wakandans or any of comics' other fantastical nations/races. Anybody who knew what the Amazons were like before Flashpoint knew that they faced several challenges as a society and didn't always come out looking so great.

Also, Pre-Flashpoint, the Amazons actually weren't as "sexist" as you're making them out to be. Their literal code was that they pledged to use compassion and love to save mankind. That's all of mankind. Not just women.

In fact, the New 52 version of the Amazons was probably more sexist, since they only saw men as breeding stock to then be killed off and sold and trafficked male babies to Hephaestus. So...

[sifighter]

Current titles with zero regular Batman/Batfamily.

Superman: son of kal-el
Action Comics
Superman & the Authority
Supergirl: woman of tomorrow
Superman red & Blue
Wonder Woman
Wonder girl
Wonder Woman Evolution
Nubia & the Amazons
Wonder Woman black and gold
Flash
Green Lantern
Green Arrow/Aquaman Deep Target
Aquaman: the becoming
Black Manta
Shazam
Crush & Lobo
Mister Miracle: source of freedom
Deathstroke Inc.
Human Target
Rorschach
Static
Hardware
icon and rocket
Suicide Squad
Suicide Squad: King Shark
Swamp Thing
Crime Syndicate
Blue and Gold
Strange Adventures

Titles where Batman/Batfamily exists but is not title character
Justice League
Justice League Incarnate
Infinite Frontier
Checkmate
Titans Academy
Titans United
Task Force Z
Dark Knights of Steel
DC vs Vampires

So that’s about 39 comics since March, not counting those non-DC superhero comics like American Vampire or nice house on the lake, that you can read if you don’t want 100% Batman focus.


Now doing the same for New 52 launch titles
Superman
Action Comics
Superboy
Supergirl
Wonder Woman
Aquaman
Green Lantern
Green Lantern Corps
Green Lantern: New Guardians
Red Lanterns
Flash
Green Arrow
Captain Atom
Fury of the Firestorm
Mister Terrific
Savage Hawkman
Blue Beetle
Hawk and Dove
Legion Lost
Legion of Superheroes
Static Shock
All Star Western
Blackhawks
Deathstroke
Grifter
Men of War
OMAC
Storm watch
Suicide Squad
Voodoo
Animal Man
Demon Knights
Frankenstein agent of shade
I Vampire
Swamp Thing
Resurrection Man
Justice League Dark

Counting Batman/Batfamily
Justice League
Justice League international
Teen Titans

So 41 here, which is about two titles more then now

[Korath]

No, no they're really not. And again, you've missed the point. You can call them "segregationist" and "isolationist" but doing is ignorant of the actual circumstances of their existence, both the real-world and fictional circumstances.

Marston would have grown up at a time when it was a novel idea that women would even have the right to vote and when women were very much segregated and alienated from the larger society as a whole. And in a lot of ways, women still are alienated and marginalized in everyday life. Women are routinely vilified for seeking power in a way that men are not. The U.S. just elected our first female Vice President. And as things stand, there is still somehow a reticence to seeing women in power and even when women perform the same functions as male counterparts in society, they still are paid less than those male counterparts.

So, the idea of a female-run society that was not only functional, but also prosperous was (and unfortunately still very much is) a subversion of the limitations that have been placed on women by a sexist society.

On top of that, in-universe, the Amazons were literally, ya know, enslaved by men and then Post-Crisis were explained to be reincarnated from the souls of women who had been killed by men. So...yeah, their "isolation" was kind of forced upon them.



Again, NOT perfect. Not by any means. At least not any more perfect than the likes of DC's Atlanteans or Marvel's Asgardians or the Wakandans or any of comics' other fantastical nations/races. Anybody who knew what the Amazons were like before Flashpoint knew that they faced several challenges as a society and didn't always come out looking so great.

Also, Pre-Flashpoint, the Amazons actually weren't as "sexist" as you're making them out to be. Their literal code was that they pledged to use compassion and love to save mankind. That's all of mankind. Not just women.

In fact, the New 52 version of the Amazons was probably more sexist, since they only saw men as breeding stock to then be killed off and sold and trafficked male babies to Hephaestus. So...

You can refuse to see it, but classic Amazons ARE segregationists and sexists. They aren't thunderously so, but they are, and the actual events in real life around Marston do not excuse it in any way, shape or form. Not when he and later writers clearly vent frustration at Christianity on Zeus, keep downplaying the nastiness of the female Greek gods but using the Gods' (which are often unsavory characters indeed) and still makes the Amazons a one-sex society firmly against granting asylum to men for any longer of time.

When your fictional society is litteraly one word away from being a segregationist paradise, I'm sorry, but something is fundamentaly rotten.

[Bruce Wayne]

But the problem with Rebirth was that it started with a return of "HOPE" for a better DC, but quickly turned more into Stillbirth when things became even darker and hopeless while we were all stuck waiting (and waiting . . . and waiting . . . ) to see if/what might (eventually) result from Doomsday Clock.

That happens when you have the guy who created the mess in the first place with New 52 pulling the strings bts.

[Doctor Know]

I'm always baffled with the hate New 52 gets. Think back to pre-New 52. Specifically the post Infinite Crisis era (2005-2011).

The books that were making sales at the time were:


Morrison on Batman, Seven Soldiers and Final Crisis.
Johns on GL (Sinestro Corps, Blackest Night, Brightest Day, War of the GL), Flash and Booster Gold.
Simone on Wonder Woman.
Giffen and Winnick's run on JLI.

What other books were doing well enough to not merit a shake-up?


Waid's second turn on the Flash was bad.

Levitz's second turn on LOSH was boring.

Superman was underwater with the back to back failures of Reign of Doomsday, Grounded and New Krypton.

The 2K3 Teen Titans era went downhill after Johns left at issue #50.

The post Infinite Crisis JL had Meltzer, McDuffie and Robinson's runs. A largely forgotten volume, with a few standout stories.

A series of terrible events like Justice League Cry of Justice, Countdown, Amazons Attack, Death of the New Gods.

Hey! Anyone remember Arthur "Joseph" Curry? Yeah, me neither.

I couldn't tell you what Green Arrow was doing at the time.

The experimental Trial of Shazam and JSA companion arc was never resolved.

The Kent V. Nelson Doctor Fate was cancelled after the author Steve Gerber passed away.


The New 52 was a shot in the arm, that helped save the drowning publisher. I believe it elevated Marvel too. Since in 2012, they launched their first run on Marvel NOW. Soft-reboots meant to be used as jumping on points for new readers. As continuity of decades worth of stories was weighing both DC and Marvel. After the first few years, the New 52 fell apart due to mismanagement. Easily corrected with a new direction and line wide structuring of what the executives want to to sell. Instead we got Rebirth, which brought back the pre-Flashpoint universe for some, combined elements of the New 52 universe for others and rocketed the Watchmen characters into the main universe. Let's not forget another round of terrible event comics.


DC didn't learn from their mistakes of what torpedoed the New 52, or the pre-Flashpoint stories. A common complaint I see is the New 52 got rid of the old continuity. Now we sit in the Infinite Frontier era and I couldn't begin to tell you what the continuity of the DCU is. Does anyone else know?


In conclusion, the there was no fixing the pre-Flashpoint books. Too many were underwater and a line-wide reboot was the quickest way to set a new normal and get readers invested again.

[Maxi]

Yes, it was bad. It completely destroyed an universe full of ruch lore and history without gaining anything in return. The same books could have been published without doing that.

[Maxi]

A common complaint I see is the New 52 got rid of the old continuity. Now we sit in the Infinite Frontier era and I couldn't begin to tell you what the continuity of the DCU is. Does anyone else know?

So basically New 52 had no continuity and the characters didn't have their histories. Stories were lacking and the universe felt empty because of that.
And Infinite Frontier has no continuity but the characters do have their histories.
Yeah, I'll take the later. Thanks.

[Maxi]

Superman's parents died before he left Smallville and are also still alive.
Lex Luthor was a teenage supervillain in and out of jail his entire life, and was also a philanthropist with a clean record as a CEO.
Wonder Woman came to Man's World with no secret identity and also came to Man's World and lived as Diana Prince for years.

This "it all happened" idea falls apart if you examine it because there's too many contradictions. I find that answer far more off putting than an honest answer that some stories are out of continuity for this reality but happened in another universe.
With this set up when I read a story I don't know the history of the characters I'm reading because they're so undefined as to be meaningless. It creates a detachment from the characters.
I think DC pushes this "it all happened" because it's easier than actually doing the work of maintaining a comprehensive continuity and that it works more or less for Batman, whose continuity is easier to reconcile because his history has been mostly kept consistent compared to other characters.

It's pretty clear to me they're writing the characters as their Pre-Flashpoint selves but with whatever developments came from the Post-Flashpoint era added. You guys expect continuity to be too specific and that just isn't possible anymore after the mess DiDio made. Infinite Frontier feels like the best compromise: It allows creators to draw from all DC history while not having to be specific about it and try to fix something that is beyond broken at this point.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

You can refuse to see it, but classic Amazons ARE segregationists and sexists. They aren't thunderously so, but they are, and the actual events in real life around Marston do not excuse it in any way, shape or form. Not when he and later writers clearly vent frustration at Christianity on Zeus, keep downplaying the nastiness of the female Greek gods but using the Gods' (which are often unsavory characters indeed) and still makes the Amazons a one-sex society firmly against granting asylum to men for any longer of time.

When your fictional society is litteraly one word away from being a segregationist paradise, I'm sorry, but something is fundamentaly rotten.

Again, you're ignoring the actual context of their existence, choosing to turn a blind eye to it because it doesn't fit into your narrative. Firstly, in large part, the Amazons didn't become separated from men becuase of base hatred. They were granted Paradise Island/Themiscyra by the gods after escaping slavery at the hands of Heracles.

Secondly, the female gods weren't portrayed any "better" than their male counterparts. Many posters have communicated this point to you before based on their familiarity with how Hera and the other female gods were portrayed prior to Flashpoint. Yet, for some reason, you seem to have not registered that fact and are still reiterating an inaccurate talking point.

Thirdly, the Amazons weren't "firmly against granting asylum to men" as there were multiple times when men came to Themyscira and Hippolyta literally opened up the Amazons to the outside world back in the 80s, appointing Diana as the country's UN Ambassador.

So, again, I don't know where you're getting this idea that the Amazons were some isolationist hate-filled society, but they weren't.