At this point, "New 52" isn't that bad at all.

[Doctor Know]

The history started with New 52 Justice League didn't alter at all either. Cyborg still joined in the invasion against Darkseid. Jessica Cruz was still a member during the start and most of Rebirth. Darkseid was restored, after becoming a baby in Apokolips War. Grail from Apokolips War was still around. Etc.

DC cherry picking what's happened and what hasn't again. Par for the course.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

All of New52 JL is relevant and referenced, and is sort of integral to understanding why darkseid has been on hiatus until recently. New52 superman is dead, but he still existed and his persona absorbed.

It doesn't matter if some of the New 52 is referenced if most of it has been overwritten. If most of the New 52 has been overwritten, which again it has been, then it makes no sense to say that we are still in the New 52 timeline because we're not. Again, as Drako pointed out to you, the current Superman doesn't share very much at all with the New 52 one and he is basically Pre-Flashpoint Superman. You can't really say that the New 52 Superman still existed when the New 52 Superman had a clear "brand new origin" and a set status quo, which both don't hold true anymore.

So saying that we're still in the New 52 timeline is just untrue. Sorry, but facts are facts.

Several others have pointed out that you seem to be that not only doesn't accept reality, but wants it revised. It seems personal for you?? For literally 21 pages youve been repeating the same questions to yourself and the same lists in spite of a lot of people sorta shutting you down. Ive been watching. I don't see anyone else trying to incorrectly insist things didn't happen or were reversed. It's weird.

You are the person who kept asking how Clark dated Diana but married Lois, for like 5 pages, seeming to not realize that there were two supermans for a period of time. You need to read superman: rebirth one shot. There is no second flashpoint that reversed time afterward.

The reason I keep posting the same questions is that nobody has given me a satisfactory answer to any of them. Nobody has explained why, if this is still the New 52 timeline, the New 52 Amazons have been replaced. Or why then was Superman's secret identity intact when the identity of the New 52 Superman was known to the public.

These are real questions that point to the fact that no, we are not in the same timeline that started in 2011. There might be elements of that timeline left, but the fact that so much of it has been overwritten means that we're now in another one, hard reboot or not.

Also, you guys have been making reference to Death Metal for 20 pages and how it "merged" the timelines, yet you can't see how that is a hard relaunch/reboot akin to Flashpoint? Most wiki pages even make reference to the how the DC continuity is now in a "Post-Death Metal" stage.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

It hasnt been overwritten. Some things just arent used. All is canon now. See Joshua williamson interview from July.

If something is not used and instead, something that's directly contradictory is, then that means that that first thing is not relevant or no longer matters. Again, simple logic.

He died and merged. He dated Diana. No ones arguing that New52 supes is still around except as part of current supes, that I can see But pretty much everybody except you agrees that he existed and he dated Diana, as we are still using the timeline that began in 2011. If you don't believe that, then please point to the specific book which rebooted a new timeline between 2011 and now. .

Literally in that same post you just quoted, Drako pointed out to you that after Reborn, the New 52 Superman no longer existed as part of this timeline. This is what he said:

Of course the New 52 one existed until Superman reborn, but after they merged, the story about the previous didn't really matter and the Super Dad became the original one in universe. Hell, the most important fact about that New 52 Superman was that his parents weren't alive and now Ma and Pa Kent are alive and well.

Drako and witchboy have both pointed out to you that the New 52 Superman's history is not compatible with the current timeline...meaning that this is no longer the New 52 timeline. It's a pretty simple premise.

[Noodle]

It's hilarious that we've got pages of people here arguing about what is part of the current timeline or not when DC itself can't even definitively say what's in the current timeline or not.

[InfamousBG]

It's hilarious that we've got pages of people here arguing about what is part of the current timeline or not when DC itself can't even definitively say what's in the current timeline or not.

You do make a good point...

[Drako]

It's hilarious that we've got pages of people here arguing about what is part of the current timeline or not when DC itself can't even definitively say what's in the current timeline or not.

Usually the fans put more thought into their favorite stuff than the people doing it, unfortunately.

[ducklord]

The history started with New 52 Justice League didn't alter at all either. Cyborg still joined in the invasion against Darkseid. Jessica Cruz was still a member during the start and most of Rebirth. Darkseid was restored, after becoming a baby in Apokolips War. Grail from Apokolips War was still around. Etc.

DC cherry picking what's happened and what hasn't again. Par for the course.

I think at this point, given that Cyborg's history with the Titans has been restored, it's probably safer to say that Cyborg, a veteran member of the Titans, joined an incarnation of the Justice League a few years ago, which was formed during an invasion by Darkseid, at which point he picked up some Apokaliptian tech (or, if your prefer, has some dormant Apokalips tech activated) that allowed him to Boom Tube. If you try to keep the New52 Justice League origin as *the* first adventure of the League, the timelines just don't work any more (of course, they barely worked in the first place, but that's water under the Boom Tube at this point).

Jessica Cruz's origin, frankly, is going to need some straightening out some day. If I'm remembering correctly (please correct me if I'm wrong), she got her first power ring from Earth-3's Harold Jordan - a Harold Jordan from approximately two reboots of Earth-3 ago. She then went on to fight the Justice League and a version of the Doom Patrol that's no longer in continuity before pulling herself together to become a hero. Since then her story's pretty straightforward (and cool), but that origin is chock full of yikes.

Looking back, if you were to simply say, "a few years ago a temporarily disbanded Justice League reformed during one of Darkseid's many invasions of the Earth. This team, consisting of League stalwarts Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Flash, and Aquaman, were joined by veteran Titans member Cyborg, whose recently-added Boom Tube tech proved crucial in winning the day," the first New52 JL story slides nicely into this new continuity.

Heck, that might have even been the original idea

[Stanlos]

No, it was still terrible and many of my favorite characters have never recovered from it.

Very this.

[InfamousBG]

No, it was still terrible and many of my favorite characters have never recovered from it.

So much this.

[Greta]

I don’t know about other sites but I know for a fact that on DC Comics subreddit, which has a younger crowd (guessing average ages 18-30) and a monster-size community (500k), New52 is overwhelmingly popular and considered main continuity by most. If you were to do a search there asking what timeline is in use, they pretty much all interpret Infinite Frontier as using the one started in 2011. Tons of brand new readers go there asking for recommended new reading or just a launching off point, and everyone lists off New52 books and Rebirth books. Almost nobody recommends starting anywhere in Pre52. Pre52 is not disliked but is treated with more “meh” in that community. People who go on endless whines about the New 52 get downvoted because people just hate griping in general. People who advocate for retcons to anything often have their comments deleted due to the downvotes. People are very sick of retcons.

I noticed the same thing on reddit. Pretty much everyone acknowledges that the timeline we're using is the New 52 timeline which began in 2011, as there is no event you can point to after flashpoint in which it "reset." It would run counter to everything we've seen in death metal. There have just been adjustments and reshifting to the 2011 timeline, with everything rolling into it and both the old and new being made canon by death metal.

Here is what I believe may explain the difference between those who are accepting of what took place since 2011, which is most, as opposed to the pathological-seeming "revisionist" behavior we've seen from one or two people here:

Newer fans, who are usually on the younger side, very much do not care for linear continuities or timelines, nor do they believe such things need to exist. What they care about is if the story is good. “Canon” is not really a thing anymore as others mentioned, and if it is, DC wants it to be additive, not restrictive. Nothing deleted, nothing discarded. This is a very much a generational difference. The younger crowd’s perspective is sort of “post-modernist” in the sense that truth is malleable and dependent upon perception, time, and context. They just want good reads. DC has caught onto this and is catering to it with Infinite Frontier at least for now.

Its very much the older fans who care obsessively, almost pathologically, about maintaining a single orderly continuity. They really do not likethe idea of a comic universe composed of independent, self-contained stories that don’t reference one another or do so in what they believe is an inconsistent manner. Actually, they hate that. Some might even be brave enough to own up to this. For them it makes it all feel like it “doesn’t count,” and “what counts” matters greatly to them. For better or worse, canon and continuity are what they eat, drink, sleep, and breathe. You could probably picture several reasons for that: one being these individuals feel that their characters are like lifelong “friends” who they have “gotten to know” and they fear them becoming unrecognizable or unpredictable. Part of it is also a sense of accomplishment of collecting the knowledge of a consistent-seeming universe, one which they feel is made more “tangible” by having a single rigid continuity. This is lock-step with the 1990s mindset, which was a time when people loved to “collect” things like comics, stamps, trading cards. Amassing knowledge of a well-defined “canon” feeds into that part of their souls, and that collection of knowledge is, in their minds, negated by a continuity that is fluid and dynamic instead one that is “set in stone” and exclusionary.

I am quite sure a lot what I am saying is resonating with certain people in this thread as they read this very post. It may even make them feel somewhat uncomfortable.

Meanwhile, we have on the other hand the younger, newer fans. These guys aren’t into collecting much of anything as they derive more value from present experiences instead of collected things or amassed fictional knowledge. This is true of millennials in particular who spend more money on vacations and social experiences than they do on consumer goods (look it up) and that plays right into why Infinite Frontier will appeal to them. Infinite Frontier is about good stories without regard to the canon, and very little emphasis on referencing the past at all.

As to explain the behavior we're seeing before us: the shift toward more isolated stories which may draw upon any history at will, and may not consistently reference one another, threatens the more aged set of fans. Most are actually okay with it though and will adapt well. But a couple have said “they like Infinite Frontier so far” simply because DC has not yet reached the phase in which referencing different pasts has fully played out. Some who struggle to adjust cope using a bit of healthy denial, ignoring the readings that don’t fit their preferred canon (like a couple here are doing with Superman Reborn) or labelling them as a deviation, or whatever fanfic they want to invent. But then you have a scant few whose denial runs really deep who cope by devising a revisionist “headcanon” that we've somehow swapped timelines, accompanied by a total lack of any in-universe or outside universe explanation or event to substantiate it. And some (like a couple in this thread) take it a step further by going around echo chambers repeating their newly constructed "headcanon" which is that the old is actually the only continuity, desperately praying it will “catch on” and somehow become lore to everybody else. It’s all in vain though, and it’s all self-soothing.

[InfamousBG]

Its very much the older fans who care obsessively, almost pathologically about maintaining a single orderly continuity. They really do not like idea of a comic universe composed of independent, self-contained stories that don’t reference one another or do so in what they believe is an inconsistent manner. Actually, they hate that. Some might even be brave enough to own up to this. For them it makes it all feel like it “doesn’t count,” and “what counts” matters greatly to them. For better or worse, canon and continuity are what they eat, drink, sleep, and breathe. You could probably picture several reasons for that: one being these individuals feel that their characters are like lifelong “friends” who they have “gotten to know” and they fear them becoming unrecognizable or unpredictable. Part of it is also a sense of accomplishment of collecting the knowledge of a consistent-seeming universe, one which they feel is made more “tangible” by having a single rigid continuity. This is lock-step with the 1990s mindset, which was a time when people loved to “collect” things like comics, stamps, trading cards. Amassing knowledge of a well-defined “canon” feeds into that part of their souls, and that collection of knowledge is, in their minds, negated by a continuity that is fluid and dynamic instead one that is “set in stone” and exclusionary.

I just don't think you get it. You will tell me I am wrong because I take you as one that will always think your right (which your not). We, the ones that care about continuity may care because we have been collecting for over 40 years (or much longer than that) and been through hell and back with many of these characters. Unlike the newer fans (I think your one of them, I may be wrong) who jumped onto the New 52 and loved it (good for you) and think that everything started back in 2011 and you are very wrong if you think that. So Wally West started back in 2011? Green Arrow started back then as a youngster? Two Superman? That is how it all stated right? Give me a break.

I am not going top keep this going because you think your running some show here for people to learn the way you look at things but that is not how it works. Enjoy the New 52 all you want. It sucked! That is what I believe and many others believe as well.

Enjoy

[ducklord]

I noticed the same thing on reddit. Pretty much everyone acknowledges that the timeline we're using is the New 52 timeline which began in 2011, as there is no event you can point to after flashpoint in which a new timeline was started. There have just been adjustments and reshifting to the current one, with both the old and new being made canon by death metal. Here is what I believe may explain the difference between those who are accepting of what took place since 2011, which is most, as opposed to the pathological-seeming "revisionist" behavior we've seen from one or two people here.

Newer fans, who are usually on the younger side, very much do not care for linear continuities or timelines, nor do they believe such things need to exist. What they care about is if the story is good. “Canon” is not really a thing anymore as others mentioned, and if it is, DC wants it to be additive, not restrictive. Nothing deleted, nothing discarded. This is a very much a generational difference. The younger crowd’s perspective is sort of “post-modernist” in the sense that truth is malleable and dependent upon perception, time, and context. They just want good reads. DC has caught onto this and is catering to it with Infinite Frontier at least for now.

Its very much the older fans who care obsessively, almost pathologically about maintaining a single orderly continuity. They really do not like idea of a comic universe composed of independent, self-contained stories that don’t reference one another or do so in what they believe is an inconsistent manner. Actually, they hate that. Some might even be brave enough to own up to this. For them it makes it all feel like it “doesn’t count,” and “what counts” matters greatly to them. For better or worse, canon and continuity are what they eat, drink, sleep, and breathe. You could probably picture several reasons for that: one being these individuals feel that their characters are like lifelong “friends” who they have “gotten to know” and they fear them becoming unrecognizable or unpredictable. Part of it is also a sense of accomplishment of collecting the knowledge of a consistent-seeming universe, one which they feel is made more “tangible” by having a single rigid continuity. This is lock-step with the 1990s mindset, which was a time when people loved to “collect” things like comics, stamps, trading cards. Amassing knowledge of a well-defined “canon” feeds into that part of their souls, and that collection of knowledge is, in their minds, negated by a continuity that is fluid and dynamic instead one that is “set in stone” and exclusionary.

I am quite sure a lot what I am saying is resonating with certain people in this thread as they read this very post. It may even make them feel somewhat uncomfortable.

Meanwhile, we have on the other hand the younger, newer fans. These guys aren’t into collecting much of anything as they derive more value from present experiences instead of collected things or amassed fictional knowledge. This is true of millennials in particular who spend more money on vacations and social experiences than they do on consumer goods (look it up) and that plays right into why Infinite Frontier will appeal to them. Infinite Frontier is about good stories without regard to the canon, and very little emphasis on referencing the past at all.

As to explain the behavior we're seeing before us: the shift toward more isolated stories which may draw upon any history at will, and may not consistently reference one another, threatens the more aged set of fans. Most are actually okay with it though and will adapt well. But a couple have said “they like Infinite Frontier so far” simply because DC has not yet reached the phase in which referencing different pasts has fully played out. Some who struggle to adjust cope using a bit of healthy denial, ignoring the readings that don’t fit their preferred canon (like a couple here are doing with Superman Reborn) or labelling them as a deviation, or whatever fanfic they want to invent. But then you have a scant few whose denial runs really deep who cope by devising a revisionist “headcanon” that we've somehow swapped timelines, accompanied by a total lack of any in-universe or outside universe explanation or event to substantiate it. And some (like a couple in this thread) take it a step further by going around echo chambers repeating their newly constructed "headcanon" which is that the old is actually the only continuity, desperately praying it will “catch on” and somehow become lore to everybody else. It’s all in vain though, and it’s all self-soothing.

While this post probably is probably projects motives onto people a little *too* much, it is not without merit, particularly in its broad analysis of modern fans tending to be more of a "pick up a storyline, not a universe" type.

I definitely fall into the description of an aging fanboy who has an almost perverse interest in how it all fits together. I also accept that I'm likely an outlier on Ye Olde Fanboy Spectrum. Even so, I would hesitate to ascribe motivations to other fans, 'cause I find that quickly gets a little... rude.

[Menacer]

If something is not used and instead, something that's directly contradictory is, then that means that that first thing is not relevant or no longer matters. Again, simple logic.



Literally in that same post you just quoted, Drako pointed out to you that after Reborn, the New 52 Superman no longer existed as part of this timeline. This is what he said:



Drako and witchboy have both pointed out to you that the New 52 Superman's history is not compatible with the current timeline...meaning that this is no longer the New 52 timeline. It's a pretty simple premise.

Here is what Wiki has to say about the continuity

20210824_093625.jpg

[Menacer]

If something is not used and instead, something that's directly contradictory is, then that means that that first thing is not relevant or no longer matters. Again, simple logic.



Literally in that same post you just quoted, Drako pointed out to you that after Reborn, the New 52 Superman no longer existed as part of this timeline. This is what he said:



Drako and witchboy have both pointed out to you that the New 52 Superman's history is not compatible with the current timeline...meaning that this is no longer the New 52 timeline. It's a pretty simple premise.

Sorry dude you are not informed.
Here is what wiki says about Metal's connection to new52
.


Screenshot_20210824-094022_Chrome.jpg

[Greta]

I just don't think you get it. You will tell me I am wrong because I take you as one that will always think your right (which your not) We, the ones that care about continuity may care because we have been collecting for over 40 years (or much longer than that) and been through hell and back with many of these characters. Unlike the newer fans (I think your one of them, I may be wrong) who jumped onto the New 52 and loved it (good for you) and think that everything started back in 2011 and you are very wrong if you think that.

I am not going top keep this going because you think your running some show here for people to learn the way you look at things but that is not how it works.

Thank you for confirming my statements. You made for an excellent case study. If you want to break free from your chains, try to think about things other than in terms of how they affect you emotionally.