At this point, "New 52" isn't that bad at all.

[InfamousBG]

They kept a lot since its the still the 2011 timelines. greta posted a good list and its prolly not even close to being fully comprehensive.


Theres also midnighter and apollo now appearing in superman and authority, new52 villains reappearing, more and more. I anticipate much in infinite frontier after theyre done with old introductions

I got to ask...did you read comics before 2011 or even up to more than like a year ago?

You keep quoting Greta. Who I would love to answer the same question above.

[BohemiaDrinker]

I was not gonna touch this thread, but heh, some of the youngsters here really to get over themselves a little.

Acting like this whole Superman merger is something new that will destabilize older readers is, at the very least, very very myopic and self-centered. Do you guys know how many times we've seen the very same thing happen to Hawkman? Donna Troy? Superman himself? Whole Earths? A lot of times, dudes, a lot.

This is not the first time that we have a Superman running around with 2 or 3 different origins either. It's not even the second one. This is as old as the silver age, really.

And this blasé attitude of "Infinite Frontier is made to cater to me, because I don't care about canon, and all that matters is that" is kinda.... meh. The reason continuity may seem so inconsequential to some is because they started reading at a time when it was more mismanaged than any other (in this case, the later half of Dan Didio's tenure - as what it mattered to him the most was the maintenance of a particular status quo), and some seem to not really be able to own up to the act that the inconsistencies all around are just that.

This is not made by design to please you, it was just incompetence. And now it's being fixed, and it's done so in a way that aims to not displease the newcomers or the old timers. It's gonna coalesce into something, as it always did all the other times we've seen the exact same thing and, hopefully, they will throw away as little as possible this time.

As for the New 52, it's gone. If "the timeline", as abstract a concept as that may be, is the same or not is immaterial: that status quo is gone, those portrayals are gone, the continuity that was enforced then has been mostly overwritten and and the mission statement behind it is gone as well. What was worth from it remains: mostly new characters. Whatever story that's still referenced, is referenced as "a version of that story", again, as it always was.Arguing such a small techinicality as "did post crisis eat the new52 or did the new52 eat post-crisis" is really pretty meaningless at this point.

And I'm sorry to any newer reader is attached to it, but it's going to go away the way of the dodo as everything else went. What matters is that the good stuff remains this time, as that's pretty much it.

[InfamousBG]

I was not gonna touch this thread, but heh, some of the youngsters here really to get over themselves a little.

Acting like this whole Superman merger is something new that will destabilize older readers is, at the very least, very very myopic and self-centered. Do you guys know how many times we've seen the very same thing happen to Hawkman? Donna Troy? Superman himself? Whole Earths? A lot of times, dudes, a lot.

This is not the first time that we have a Superman running around with 2 or 3 different origins either. It's not even the second one. This is as old as the silver age, really.

Ohhhhhbut Mr. BohemiaDrinker it really all started in 2011 with the great New 52 so nothing else you say matters. Laugh Out LOUD (just incase you new readers were wondering what LOL meant)

I am done here. There is no "winning" in this thread. Like the guy above said...this stuff has been done since the beginning of DC Comics.

[joebleau]

First: New 52 was realllllly bad. Bad idea, bad stories, bad timeline.

which era are we in ? i say Post-crisis/pre-flashpoint. the Post crisis era was mess with the Infinite Crisis, the flashpoint then by Mister Mxyzptlk (Merge superman) Doctor Manhanttan Dark Metal and Perpetuta.

Everything happens yes, like elseworlds but they remember all of it and some stick. But definitly Post-Crisis era

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

This is hilarious man

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Attachment 113018

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Attachment 113019


^^^^^^
Quote from images
Dark Nights: Death Metal" is the sequel to 2017's Dark Nights: Metal and concludes Scott Snyder's run in DC Comics; he stated "Everything is coming back, we want to pay it forward. The Omega Titans, Barbatos, the Forge, it’s all coming back. Everything you read, our goal is to reward. All of it culminates in like a year in like a "Metal" event."[1] "Death Metal" not only concludes the three-year spanning Dark Multiverse narrative that began with "Dark Nights: Metal", but will bring an end to the New 52 and DC Rebirth continuities that began with 2011's "Flashpoint" storyline.

In April 2020 during an interview on DC Daily, Snyder assured that the purpose of "Death Metal" is to unify every storyline from mainline DC Universe comic books, including the standalone stories.[2][3]

So from 2011 til 2021 the new 52 and Rebirth continuity has been on going.

Though its OVER NOW as of Infinite Frontier

Not that complicated. But lemme guess you still dont understand?

Dude. Again, none of that contradicts anything I said. The picture you posted literally refers to the New 52 and Rebirth continuities as separate things. Again, it says "continuities" as in two different ones. The New 52 continuity turned into the Rebirth continuity. But the Rebirth continuity is still different from the New 52 one.

Either way, this is all semantics. Bottom line: the New 52 is over. 100% it's over.

And thank you for finally conceding that the current timeline is NOT the New 52 timeline.

[Pinsir]

My recollection at the time is that there was a lot of excitement around the new Wonder Woman, because as a character she hadn't been written so well in years (if ever). Similarly, the new revisions to Superman were tolerated because, hey, Byrne. Even though there were hiccups in those early years (poor, poor Donna Troy), there was a lot of excitement post-Crisis, as well.

I think that a lot of fanboy tolerance of the post-Crisis universe back in the day was because the Crisis was, on balance, primarily non-destructive. For every clean reboot that messed a few things up (Wonder Woman), there was something additive (all the golden agers and Captain Marvel are on the same Earth and can team up more often!). And, honestly, around 80-90% of the titles came through the Crisis with most of their continuity intact. It was, in many ways, like the merger of the New 52 and the pre-Flashpoint metaverses today - most of the stories from both timelines are probably kicking around in there in some form, but a few have probably retroactively modified or dropped. And that's cool.

The New 52 was much more of a "tossing on the baby with the bathwater," approach. If you were enjoying anything other than Green Lantern or Batman heading into Flashpoint, you were s.o.l. a few months later. So naturally, there were hurt feelings.

It didn't help that, yeah, a good chunk of the new titles either a) didn't seem to warrant a line-wide reboot, or b) kind of sucked.

I think you're relying to much on knowledge on future knowledge in your assessment though. For example, there was about a year-ish period when a Wonder Woman title wasn't published at all. If that happened in this day and age, there would be a riot! I'm also not sure how you can Post-Crisis was non-destructive when the most iconic moment of CoIE is Superman holding a dead Supergirl. It was destructive, but the thing is, eventually Supergirl came back in someway, so her death mattered less in hindsight.

I do think you are right in that people would may have been more receptive to the idea though, which was not the case with the New 52. A lot of people were already against the idea before the first issues were published and people were disappointed that the entire world wasn't laid out before them. Continuity isn't plotted out like map, it has to be created by a legion of authors that work as they tell their stories and that takes years and the New 52 didn't last long enough for that to happen.

The question I always have for people who dislike the New 52 is this; is the New 52 better than the last 5 of Post-Crisis Continuity? I think the answer is a clear yes, like unquestionably so.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

As for the New 52, it's gone. If "the timeline", as abstract a concept as that may be, is the same or not is immaterial: that status quo is gone, those portrayals are gone, the continuity that was enforced then has been mostly overwritten and and the mission statement behind it is gone as well. What was worth from it remains: mostly new characters. Whatever story that's still referenced, is referenced as "a version of that story", again, as it always was.Arguing such a small techinicality as "did post crisis eat the new52 or did the new52 eat post-crisis" is really pretty meaningless at this point.

And I'm sorry to any newer reader is attached to it, but it's going to go away the way of the dodo as everything else went. What matters is that the good stuff remains this time, as that's pretty much it.

Preach, dude!! Preach!!

[InfamousBG]

The question I always have for people who dislike the New 52 is this; is the New 52 better than the last 5 of Post-Crisis Continuity? I think the answer is a clear yes, like unquestionably so.

Wow now that is a good question. I am not sure of the answer.

I posted in here (I think...) that I did like many of the stories that went with the New 52 (mostly Batman stuff). I just did not like the rest. Erasing characters, changing timelines, making heroes and villains so much different than they were for many of years.

I understand that that all goes with many of the other crisis but to me the New 52 was just a slap in the face. That is just me though and I am not trying to change anyones tune here. I am just giving (some) facts and opinions.

[skyvolt2000]

Its very much the older fans who care obsessively, almost pathologically, about maintaining a single orderly continuity. They really do not likethe idea of a comic universe composed of independent, self-contained stories that don’t reference one another or do so in what they believe is an inconsistent manner. Actually, they hate that.

There is no such thing as a single orderly continuity. Because change is constant.

We have had self contained stories that do not reference others.

History is being rewritten constantly. PBS Arthur, Simpsons and Family Guy say HI. How long has Arthur & Bart been in the 3rd grade? When do the kids from Archie graduate high school?

NOBODY is throwing fits about them.

Heck no one is throwing fits about one of the biggest offender of continuity-St Elsewhere. That has linked X-Files, The Simpsons, Law & Order, Chicago Hope, ER, CSI, Homicide Life on the Street, White Shadow, Brady Bunch, The Practice, Chicago Hope, Cheers, Ally McBeal and 20 other shows as being in the same universe.

Lets not forget Dr Who. How many messed versions of Earth or the universe has He (or she) dealt with?

NOBODY is throwing fits about them.


What folks want are some good stories to read. Not this constant reinventing the wheel that has messed up Hawkman.

Folks hated New 52 because they saw their favorites trashed.

Same with the folks who dealt with Identity Crisis, Zero Hour, Hal Jordan going NUTS, Crisis and the various Teen Titan killing events for the past 20 years.

New 52 gets it worst because of WHO was behind it and his issues with way too many characters.

[InfamousBG]

Folks hated New 52 because they saw their favorites trashed.

Same with the folks who dealt with Identity Crisis, Zero Hour, Hal Jordan going NUTS, Crisis and the various Teen Titan killing events for the past 20 years.

New 52 gets it worst because of WHO was behind it and his issues with way too many characters.

Hal going nuts...geez that one still hurts.

[Bruce Wayne]

The question I always have for people who dislike the New 52 is this; is the New 52 better than the last 5 of Post-Crisis Continuity? I think the answer is a clear yes, like unquestionably so.

The answer is a clear no. The hiring of Harras as the new EiC with New 52 had a toxic effect on DC's hiring practices as he doled out jobs to his former favorites at Marvel like Nocienti, Lobdell, De Falco, Mackie, Liefeld etc.

The former post-Crisis universe and the stories/history that accompanied them gave people a reason to care about these characters and properties. Starting from scratch pretty much deprived the readership of these reasons and instead the new books lived and died on the quality of the stories. And let's be honest the quality of New 52 was very uneven due to the runaway nepotism and micromanaging by the publisher as well as publishers pushing their agendas such as destroying characters they didn't like or forcing the integration of the Wildstorm line into the main DCU.

The post-Crisis had books like Red Robin, Secret Six and Spoiler!Batgirl as well as many of the books that we were going to see in New 52 in the pipeline such as Snyder on one of the main batbooks, the Lemire/Snyder Animal Man/Swap Thing books, Johns on Aquaman and Justice League and likely better creatives teams on Hawkman (Robinson) and Firestorm (Clevinger).

You could have had many of the things from New 52 without having to destroy 20+ years of history.

[Menacer]

Dude. Again, none of that contradicts anything I said. The picture you posted literally refers to the New 52 and Rebirth continuities as separate things. Again, it says "continuities" as in two different ones. The New 52 continuity turned into the Rebirth continuity. But the Rebirth continuity is still different from the New 52 one.

Either way, this is all semantics. Bottom line: the New 52 is over. 100% it's over.

And thank you for finally conceding that the current timeline is NOT the New 52 timeline.

You keep saying I said things I never said.

ALL I SAID WAS NEW52 mattered for Rebirth, metal or death metal infinite Frontier to make sense.

You lack reading comprehension

[Menacer]

You could have had many of the things from New 52 without having to destroy 20+ years of history.

Couldnt you say the same about COIE?

These events are loved and revitalize the line

Ultimately a short while after new52 wiped the slate. Rebirth merged much of preflashpoint back in.

For me personally I love the events. METAL and death metal and now Infinite Frontier

Nothing makes me more excited as a collector to have these huge universe shifting events.

Its like saying killing superman off for a full year was the worst thing dc did to superman. Yet its all time best seller.

We need drama of these events

[InfamousBG]

Couldnt you say the same about COIE?

These events are loved and revitalize the line

Ultimately a short while after new52 wiped the slate. Rebirth merged much of preflashpoint back in.

For me personally I love the events. METAL and death metal and now Infinite Frontier

Nothing makes me more excited as a collector to have these huge universe shifting events.

Its like saying killing superman off for a full year was the worst thing dc did to superman. Yet its all time best seller.

We need drama of these events

I see what you are saying...but with these events comes with pissing a good amount of fans off. See that is why many of us do not like the way they worked New 52. It was all about pissing people off and they did just that. If DC was looking for new readers they could have done it a whole different way. Now I am not against events or crisis or whatever you want to call them. I am just not for the way they pulled it off with the New 52.

[Bruce Wayne]

Couldnt you say the same about COIE?

The former post-Crisis universe and the stories/history that accompanied them gave people a reason to care about these characters and properties. Starting from scratch pretty much deprived the readership of these reasons and instead the new books lived and died on the quality of the stories.

No because DC was much stronger creatively during the post-Crisis/pre-Didio era. You had O'Neil running the Batbooks. Bryne/Wolfman/Stern on Superman and Perez's defining run on Wonder Woman as well as the beginning of Vertigo. DC could sell the books based on the quality of stories rather than rely on history/nostalgia. For New 52 there were only a few gems buried in a mountain of ****. Without the previous history that they flushed down the drain, they gave the readership very little reason to care about these books especially given the DC's horrible editorial and hiring practices.