At this point, "New 52" isn't that bad at all.

[RobinGA]

We are back to a theme that is worthy of some thought: continuity.

History matters with DC Comics, because it has a longer history that resonates.
But history can overwhelm those who are new to the story. It never bothered
me that part of the story had begun before I was born. But then I grew up to be a
history teacher.

DC has long been concerned with balancing continuity, while being fresh enough
that new readers are welcomed in to the family. I'm rather neutral on the 52 to
be honest, it had pluses and minuses.

But there can be little doubt that some of its choices had the feeling of throwing
out all of what had gone before. It alienated some readers. There is a tendency
at times for people to say those who are alienated, well they are a bunch of old
hangers on who deserve to be alienated. But it is all how you do something. The lack
of a clear long-term vision was clearly a problem.

The issue of continuity remains a consistent problem right up to the present day.
Clearly, at this moment in time, they have thrown out continuity and canon. It is
all selective cherry picking, but without thought. Whether the people at DC Comics
realize it or not, they are creating a new continuity in that process. The problem is
that it zigs and zags in a way where it creates more problems than it solves.

[Doctor Know]

So basically New 52 had no continuity and the characters didn't have their histories. Stories were lacking and the universe felt empty because of that.
And Infinite Frontier has no continuity but the characters do have their histories.
Yeah, I'll take the later. Thanks.

The great thing about the New 52 is that it allowed characters who were in trouble (see my above list) a fresh start to create new continuities. Unless you're Batman and GL. As they kept the same plotlines and histories post-Flashpoint.


What characters and what specific histories are preserved by Infinite Frontier that you have an affinity for?

The big one for everyone during the New 52 was Wally West. But after Flash War and Heroes in Crisis, I don't imagine anyone is happy with what they've done to him.


I ask because from where DC started cratering (pre-Flashpoint), to rising (New 52), splitting the difference of continuities (Convergence and Rebirth), to current era Infinite Frontier. What stories even matter in the DCU and more importantly, what series of events happened?

[Drako]

The great thing about the New 52 is that it allowed characters who were in trouble (see my above list) a fresh start to create new continuities. Unless you're Batman and GL. As they kept the same plotlines and histories post-Flashpoint.


What characters and what specific histories are preserved by Infinite Frontier that you have an affinity for?

The big one for everyone during the New 52 was Wally West. But after Flash War and Heroes in Crisis, I don't imagine anyone is happy with what they've done to him.


I ask because from where DC started cratering (pre-Flashpoint), to rising (New 52), splitting the difference of continuities (Convergence and Rebirth), to current era Infinite Frontier. What stories even matter in the DCU and more importantly, what series of events happened?

Wally West fans are pretty happy with Infinite Frontier. Heroes in Crisis is behind us and we can move forward finally.

[Noodle]

The books that were making sales at the time were:


Morrison on Batman, Seven Soldiers and Final Crisis.
Johns on GL (Sinestro Corps, Blackest Night, Brightest Day, War of the GL), Flash and Booster Gold.
Simone on Wonder Woman.
Giffen and Winnick's run on JLI.

What other books were doing well enough to not merit a shake-up?


Waid's second turn on the Flash was bad.

Levitz's second turn on LOSH was boring.

Superman was underwater with the back to back failures of Reign of Doomsday, Grounded and New Krypton.

The 2K3 Teen Titans era went downhill after Johns left at issue #50.

The post Infinite Crisis JL had Meltzer, McDuffie and Robinson's runs. A largely forgotten volume, with a few standout stories.

A series of terrible events like Justice League Cry of Justice, Countdown, Amazons Attack, Death of the New Gods.

Hey! Anyone remember Arthur "Joseph" Curry? Yeah, me neither.

I couldn't tell you what Green Arrow was doing at the time.

The experimental Trial of Shazam and JSA companion arc was never resolved.

The Kent V. Nelson Doctor Fate was cancelled after the author Steve Gerber passed away.

There was a ton of good stuff before the New 52 relaunch:

• The Stephanie Brown Batgirl series
• Dini's Zatanna
• Secret Six
• Jeff Lemire's Superboy
• Cornell's Lex Luthor run on Action Comics
• Red Robin

It's incredibly easy to pick out the bad in anything. I could list just as much bad post-New 52 as I could pre-New 52. That doesn't mean there was nothing good.

[Agent Z]

Aquaman would like to have a word with you.

Static, JLI, Teen Titans, Mr. Terrific and all the Wild Storm characters would like to have a word with you.

Also, New 52 WW sold like hotcakes and was a very good series while Azzarello was at the helm.

And then completely nose-dived in quality after he left despite having the status quo it set up. Even then, sales were going down before he left. If anything, it primarily benefited from having little attachment to the rest of the New 52.

Yes, it ruffled feathers with long time fans, but it was IMHO for the best because the Amazon's society is deeply fucked up and most WW writers hard-on on making Zeus and all male mythical characters inherently bad is really tiring when they totally downplay all the shit that the goddesses did (if you hate Heracles for enslaving the Amazons, hate on Hera who turned him mad and had him kill his whole fucking family and then having to atone for it!).

Downplaying the Amazons and goddesses bad actions is wrong but apparently ignoring the fact that Zeus and Poseidon are rapists, punishing their victims and rewarding Zeus by putting him back on the throne after all the hell he unleashed because of his selfishness and cowardice like the New 52 run did is a-okay. To say nothing of how the only male myth characters prior to the New 52 who were consistently depicted in a villainous light were Ares and Heracles and the pre52 flashpoint run was often much more flattering to Zeus than he deserved. It was actually pretty rare to depict him as an antagonist. And it isn't like there isn't plenty reason to view Heracles as despicable with stuff like murdering his music teacher or selling a woman into slavery because her brother owed him a debt.

Justice League was also great, so was most of Superman and Action Comics, Red Hood came into his own, finally, leaving behind the taint of Morrison's take on him.

And that's from the top of my head, I'm sure there were other titles which were well loved but weren't Batman.[/QUOTE]

[Agent Z]

Every era of DC has its flaws but to act like the New 52 was better than Flashpoint or even Rebirth requires a spectacular amount of ignorance regarding what we got and the issues behind-the-scenes which several writers and staff have talked about. Any pros we got were vastly outweighed by the cons and most of the books that did benefit from it very quickly lost steam from it. And that's just if you focus on the issues regarding the writing and not stuff like them keeping Eddie Berganza around for years.

[MajorHoy]

Current titles with zero regular Batman/Batfamily.

Superman: son of kal-el
Action Comics
Superman & the Authority
Supergirl: woman of tomorrow
Superman red & Blue
Wonder Woman
Wonder girl
Wonder Woman Evolution
Nubia & the Amazons
Wonder Woman black and gold
Flash
Green Lantern
Green Arrow/Aquaman Deep Target
Aquaman: the becoming
Black Manta
Shazam
Crush & Lobo
Mister Miracle: source of freedom
Deathstroke Inc.
Human Target
Rorschach
Static
Hardware
icon and rocket
Suicide Squad
Suicide Squad: King Shark
Swamp Thing
Crime Syndicate
Blue and Gold
Strange Adventures

Titles where Batman/Batfamily exists but is not title character
Justice League
Justice League Incarnate
Infinite Frontier
Checkmate
Titans Academy
Titans United
Task Force Z
Dark Knights of Steel
DC vs Vampires

So that’s about 39 comics since March, not counting those non-DC superhero comics like American Vampire or nice house on the lake, that you can read if you don’t want 100% Batman focus.

How many of those listed are just min-/limited-series, and how many are regular on-going titles?

Now doing the same for New 52 launch titles
Superman
Action Comics
Superboy
Supergirl
Wonder Woman
Aquaman
Green Lantern
Green Lantern Corps
Green Lantern: New Guardians
Red Lanterns
Flash
Green Arrow
Captain Atom
Fury of the Firestorm
Mister Terrific
Savage Hawkman
Blue Beetle
Hawk and Dove
Legion Lost
Legion of Superheroes
Static Shock
All Star Western
Blackhawks
Deathstroke
Grifter
Men of War
OMAC
Storm watch
Suicide Squad
Voodoo
Animal Man
Demon Knights
Frankenstein agent of shade
I Vampire
Swamp Thing
Resurrection Man
Justice League Dark

Counting Batman/Batfamily
Justice League
Justice League international
Teen Titans

So 41 here, which is about two titles more then now

How many of those listed were just min-/limited-series, and how many were intended to be regular on-going titles?

[Dioman-san]

Well in the many points where the New 52 were not bad. They're less Bat-books than now X)

[J. D. Guy]

I loved the New 52. It's where I really got into DC Comics. And in many respects, I sincerely miss it.

[sifighter]

How many of those listed are just min-/limited-series, and how many are regular on-going titles?

How many of those listed were just min-/limited-series, and how many were intended to be regular on-going titles?

Well more of the infinite frontier books were meant as miniseries but some of the new 52 books were meant as ongoings but were cancelled within 6 issues, does that make much a difference?

[skyvolt2000]

In fairness to DC, the Milestone characters were tangled up with a legal dispute with McDuffie's widow, so they might not have been able to publish much.

That lawsuit was AFTER the comic. Years AFTER.

Static got ruined by the same editor who ruined Cyborg. Who insulted writers and was hard to work with and notice no one is trying to hire him now.

Aquaman would like to have a word with you.

At least Aquaman and WW had folks with talent that did not try to ruin them.

Yes Wonder Woman sold-that was one of the few New 52 books that had waiting lists at the libraries in my town.

There were good to decent to great books in New 52. Too bad the behind the scenes antics buried them.

Folks that sold got screwed over. JSA fans do NOT care how good I Vampire was. That was NOT JSA.

I Vampire did not have a tv show for 4 years like Static.

I Vampire did not have long runs like Tim, Conner, Bart & Wally.

For a company crying about sales-it's funny how many characters became after thoughts.

[Rod G]

I'm always baffled with the hate New 52 gets. Think back to pre-New 52. Specifically the post Infinite Crisis era (2005-2011).

The books that were making sales at the time were:


Morrison on Batman, Seven Soldiers and Final Crisis.
Johns on GL (Sinestro Corps, Blackest Night, Brightest Day, War of the GL), Flash and Booster Gold.
Simone on Wonder Woman.
Giffen and Winnick's run on JLI.

What other books were doing well enough to not merit a shake-up?


Waid's second turn on the Flash was bad.

Levitz's second turn on LOSH was boring.

Superman was underwater with the back to back failures of Reign of Doomsday, Grounded and New Krypton.

The 2K3 Teen Titans era went downhill after Johns left at issue #50.

The post Infinite Crisis JL had Meltzer, McDuffie and Robinson's runs. A largely forgotten volume, with a few standout stories.

A series of terrible events like Justice League Cry of Justice, Countdown, Amazons Attack, Death of the New Gods.

Hey! Anyone remember Arthur "Joseph" Curry? Yeah, me neither.

I couldn't tell you what Green Arrow was doing at the time.

The experimental Trial of Shazam and JSA companion arc was never resolved.

The Kent V. Nelson Doctor Fate was cancelled after the author Steve Gerber passed away.


The New 52 was a shot in the arm, that helped save the drowning publisher. I believe it elevated Marvel too. Since in 2012, they launched their first run on Marvel NOW. Soft-reboots meant to be used as jumping on points for new readers. As continuity of decades worth of stories was weighing both DC and Marvel. After the first few years, the New 52 fell apart due to mismanagement. Easily corrected with a new direction and line wide structuring of what the executives want to to sell. Instead we got Rebirth, which brought back the pre-Flashpoint universe for some, combined elements of the New 52 universe for others and rocketed the Watchmen characters into the main universe. Let's not forget another round of terrible event comics.


DC didn't learn from their mistakes of what torpedoed the New 52, or the pre-Flashpoint stories. A common complaint I see is the New 52 got rid of the old continuity. Now we sit in the Infinite Frontier era and I couldn't begin to tell you what the continuity of the DCU is. Does anyone else know?


In conclusion, the there was no fixing the pre-Flashpoint books. Too many were underwater and a line-wide reboot was the quickest way to set a new normal and get readers invested again.

Tell me something that I don’t already know.

The New 52 may not have been perfect, but it was still better than what we had around 2000-2002.

[Rod G]

I loved the New 52. It's where I really got into DC Comics. And in many respects, I sincerely miss it.

I’m with you, J. D. Guy.

[Bruce Wayne]

Well in the many points where the New 52 were not bad. They're less Bat-books than now X)

New 52 is where Mike Marts and Bat editorial went all in with the crossover madness and forced the Bat related ongoings they had control over to tie in with the Batman book (by Snyder). If anything New 52 was one step into the current status quo where Batbooks have eclipsed everything.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Tell me something that I don’t already know.

The New 52 may not have been perfect, but it was still better than what we had around 2000-2002.

Uh, yeah, I would still take 2000-2002 DC over the New 52 any day of the week. At least from 2000 to 2002, DC didn't erase half of their legacy characters...