At this point, "New 52" isn't that bad at all.

[Menacer]

Current titles with zero regular Batman/Batfamily.

Superman: son of kal-el
Action Comics
Superman & the Authority
Supergirl: woman of tomorrow
Superman red & Blue
Wonder Woman
Wonder girl
Wonder Woman Evolution
Nubia & the Amazons
Wonder Woman black and gold
Flash
Green Lantern
Green Arrow/Aquaman Deep Target
Aquaman: the becoming
Black Manta
Shazam
Crush & Lobo
Mister Miracle: source of freedom
Deathstroke Inc.
Human Target
Rorschach
Static
Hardware
icon and rocket
Suicide Squad
Suicide Squad: King Shark
Swamp Thing
Crime Syndicate
Blue and Gold
Strange Adventures

Titles where Batman/Batfamily exists but is not title character
Justice League
Justice League Incarnate
Infinite Frontier
Checkmate
Titans Academy
Titans United
Task Force Z
Dark Knights of Steel
DC vs Vampires

So that’s about 39 comics since March, not counting those non-DC superhero comics like American Vampire or nice house on the lake, that you can read if you don’t want 100% Batman focus.


Now doing the same for New 52 launch titles
Superman
Action Comics
Superboy
Supergirl
Wonder Woman
Aquaman
Green Lantern
Green Lantern Corps
Green Lantern: New Guardians
Red Lanterns
Flash
Green Arrow
Captain Atom
Fury of the Firestorm
Mister Terrific
Savage Hawkman
Blue Beetle
Hawk and Dove
Legion Lost
Legion of Superheroes
Static Shock
All Star Western
Blackhawks
Deathstroke
Grifter
Men of War
OMAC
Storm watch
Suicide Squad
Voodoo
Animal Man
Demon Knights
Frankenstein agent of shade
I Vampire
Swamp Thing
Resurrection Man
Justice League Dark

Counting Batman/Batfamily
Justice League
Justice League international
Teen Titans

So 41 here, which is about two titles more then now

Thanks that's a great list.

I for one am a fan of a lot of New52.

But I'm crazy excited about Infinite Frontier. Finally got me off just collecting trades. I'm into singles now and even have a pull list.

[I'm a Fish]

Also, New 52 WW sold like hotcakes and was a very good series while Azzarello was at the helm. Yes, it ruffled feathers with long time fans, but it was IMHO for the best because the Amazon's society is deeply fucked up and most WW writers hard-on on making Zeus and all male mythical characters inherently bad is really tiring when they totally downplay all the shit that the goddesses did (if you hate Heracles for enslaving the Amazons, hate on Hera who turned him mad and had him kill his whole fucking family and then having to atone for it!).

Pre-New52 Hera was mostly either absent or antagonistic.

Hera wanted nothing to do with the other Goddesses creating the Amazon's, and later punished the Amazon's by destroying their floating islands because she was mad Zeus was creeping on them...

I think the one good thing she did for Diana was drag Zeus back when he was creeping on Diana in the early Perez days.

If anything, New52 just made Hera a main character, since her New52 version was every bit the jealous goddess she was during Rucka's first run.

Wut? Hera was never portrayed in a particularly sympathetic light, and the main antagonist of pre-New 52 Wonder Woman was Circe, a female goddess. Eris and Medusa were also evil.

Circe also got her powers and mission from the Goddess Hecate, who wanted all of humanity to suffer because the entire Greek pantheon treated her like garbage.

[Menacer]

But the problem with Rebirth was that it started with a return of "HOPE" for a better DC, but quickly turned more into Stillbirth when things became even darker and hopeless while we were all stuck waiting (and waiting . . . and waiting . . . ) to see if/what might (eventually) result from Doomsday Clock.

Is it even possible to call yourself a DC fan if you don't like anything from DC.

New52 got me collecting. And I've gone strong for many years now. Rebirth, Metal, Doomsday Clock, Death Metal, Future State and now Infinite Frontier and everything in between. I'm collecting 4 to 5 times faster then I can read and I'm easily gonna finish 100 trades in 2021 ... and with Infinite Frontier I've started collecting the monthlies as well... even got a pull list.

Maybe its just cause I've only been collecting since 2016. Im not jade. Or maybe Im just to easily pleased. But I easily enjoy over 90% of what I read... I read daily and even books I dont love I dont feel I'm wasting my time reading.

Seems like so many have the sentiment that the last time they read a good book or series was dc of the 70s...

Unfortunate DC doesn't a more supportive HC fan base.

[Agent Z]

Is it even possible to call yourself a DC fan if you don't like anything from DC.

This is a weird conclusion to jump to based on what they said.

[Korath]

Again, you're ignoring the actual context of their existence, choosing to turn a blind eye to it because it doesn't fit into your narrative. Firstly, in large part, the Amazons didn't become separated from men becuase of base hatred. They were granted Paradise Island/Themiscyra by the gods after escaping slavery at the hands of Heracles.

Secondly, the female gods weren't portrayed any "better" than their male counterparts. Many posters have communicated this point to you before based on their familiarity with how Hera and the other female gods were portrayed prior to Flashpoint. Yet, for some reason, you seem to have not registered that fact and are still reiterating an inaccurate talking point.

Thirdly, the Amazons weren't "firmly against granting asylum to men" as there were multiple times when men came to Themyscira and Hippolyta literally opened up the Amazons to the outside world back in the 80s, appointing Diana as the country's UN Ambassador.

So, again, I don't know where you're getting this idea that the Amazons were some isolationist hate-filled society, but they weren't.

Yes, yes, the segregating society is good, get it. I know that long-time WW fans just can't see it the way I see it. But for me the while Marston's intentions were of course right, his excecution is utter garbage. As long as the Amazons won't be a fait society where both (or all) genders are treated equally from the get go, they aren't anything else than a repugnant sexist society which assign utterly disgusting stereotypes to the fact that one is born a Man.

I'm sorry, but change Man by Black or Jew and see if it isn't absolutely atrocious. If it is -and it IS - then that society is abhorrent, that's as simple as that.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Yes, yes, the segregating society is good, get it. I know that long-time WW fans just can't see it the way I see it. But for me the while Marston's intentions were of course right, his excecution is utter garbage. As long as the Amazons won't be a fait society where both (or all) genders are treated equally from the get go, they aren't anything else than a repugnant sexist society which assign utterly disgusting stereotypes to the fact that one is born a Man.

I'm sorry, but change Man by Black or Jew and see if it isn't absolutely atrocious. If it is -and it IS - then that society is abhorrent, that's as simple as that.

It mostly seems that you're ignoring evidence that directly contradicts the narrative you're trying to build. You've become attached to this one version of the Amazons (the New 52 version) as the "correct" way to portray them and you're simply refusing to acknowledge any evidence that would contradict that conclusion.

Again, there were multiple instances of men being treated completely fairly by the Amazons before Flashpoint. There were many cases that they showed themselves to be more than willing to open themselves up to the outside world and to the world of men. There were times when they passed judgment on the world of men, of course, but not really any more than say the Asgardians at Marvel pass judgment on Midgard.

[charliehustle415]

With all of the problems with the New 52 at least they were taking risks.

Sometimes those risks paid off i.e. making Batman in to a horror comic, making the Justice League into a Michael Bay movie, actually caring about Aquaman, Wonder Woman being a wild ass comic and anything with Tomasi/Gleason name attached

Sometimes those risks didn't pay off i.e. Superman meddling, Green Lantern's quasi continuity, Batman's quasi continuity and age problem, Wally, Teen Titans, and some that I am not remembering


But they did not play it safe; however, "fan" backlash led to a lot of weird meddling and continuity bullshit

[Agent Z]

With all of the problems with the New 52 at least they were taking risks.

Sometimes those risks paid off i.e. making Batman in to a horror comic, making the Justice League into a Michael Bay movie, actually caring about Aquaman, Wonder Woman being a wild ass comic and anything with Tomasi/Gleason name attached

Sometimes those risks didn't pay off i.e. Superman meddling, Green Lantern's quasi continuity, Batman's quasi continuity and age problem, Wally, Teen Titans, and some that I am not remembering


But they did not play it safe; however, "fan" backlash led to a lot of weird meddling and continuity bullshit

It was plagued with bad meddling and continuity from the get go.

[charliehustle415]

It was plagued with bad meddling and continuity from the get go.

I think if people weren't so hung up on it, it wouldn't have led to Convergence, which in turn led to Rebirth, which then led to what we have now.

Sure it was a mess, but it was a mess for Batman and Lantern; if they rebooted them completely like they did with Superman and Wonder Woman things may have been different.

[Korath]

It mostly seems that you're ignoring evidence that directly contradicts the narrative you're trying to build. You've become attached to this one version of the Amazons (the New 52 version) as the "correct" way to portray them and you're simply refusing to acknowledge any evidence that would contradict that conclusion.

Again, there were multiple instances of men being treated completely fairly by the Amazons before Flashpoint. There were many cases that they showed themselves to be more than willing to open themselves up to the outside world and to the world of men. There were times when they passed judgment on the world of men, of course, but not really any more than say the Asgardians at Marvel pass judgment on Midgard.

If men aren't allowed to live and exist as equals on Paradise Island, they are not treated fairly. It isn't as strange as you seem to think for racists or sexists to have a very handful of individuals who are part of the population they hate that they actually treat fairly. It doesn't change their underlying sexism or racism.

A segregationist society like the Amazons should never be presented in a good light, that's as simple as that. And I frankly don't give a fuck about poorly drawn and written stories like Perez's run (which I tried to read and found abysmally bad so fast I couldn't force myself to endure it for more than six or so issues - the only book I found as hard as that one to read was All-Star Superman, and considering how atrocious I felt forcing myself to read through this one "must-read" I honestly hadn't the stomach to do that for all of Perez's run).

Diana is a great heroine in spite of her milieu, not thanks to it. Just like a lot of Western countries spout great motto like Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité or the Land of the Free and what not but actually don't live up to that at all, and yet produce great individuals and even social movements who/which truly believe in those ideals because of the inherent strength and righteousness of said ideals in spite of how little was historically done to uphold them by the vast majority of the power that be.

Were Azarello's Amazons sexist warmongers of the worst caliber ? Yes, they were. They shouldn't be emulated in any way, shape or form by any society worth its salt. But that was the point. The Amazon are isolationist sexists immortal warriors. They are bound to be that way, instead of some strange dream of perfect gentle warrior poetesses with technology tens of thousands more advanced than the rest of the world.

That's why Atlantis is almost always depicted as a very flawed society : it's isolationist, racist and it's rightly get called on that (even if I feel they should tone down the uber tech there also because it also makes very little sense, even if Atlantis was a great empire of ages past for them to have retained so much of its tech - but I guess that since they aren't immortals they get new inventors from time to time, perhaps). And Atlanteans also have good reasons to be wary, if not hate, the surface world, since at least two hundred years. And not because of one bad man and his army did something to them thousands of years ago.

[BohemiaDrinker]

After looking at the latest solicitations, I look back all the way from "New 52". You can say all you want how bad the continuously and canon address it is but at least they really took the risk by publishing out more variety books for readership to read. From so many choices to few little options these days.

Especially from "JLD, Firestorm, JLI, Animal Man till the Question."

Guess "The end" of DC Universe is near.

I don't believe the issues people had with the New 52 were, at all, derived from the existence of fringe titles, the risk-taking or the impulse in revitalizing the line. The problem people had with it was the status quo for the major franchises, the erasure of large chunks of the universe, and the antagonizing of certain readers and their preferences.

Superman and the Flash will please or annoy more people than I, Vampire, no matter what.

Is it even possible to call yourself a DC fan if you don't like anything from DC.

[snip]

But I easily enjoy over 90% of what I read... I read daily and even books I dont love I dont feel I'm wasting my time reading.

Seems like so many have the sentiment that the last time they read a good book or series was dc of the 70s...

Unfortunate DC doesn't a more supportive HC fan base.

Yes, it is.

It's good that it worked for you and I'm happy you stuck with it. That said, for many people, the Didio period was not the norm, but an exception, and it overstayed its welcome. It's fine that you can't really appreciate what was lost because you weren't participating in it before, but for a long time, the people more bent on hating on DC were the people that love it the most. It's just how it is.

[Rod G]

Uh, yeah, I would still take 2000-2002 DC over the New 52 any day of the week. At least from 2000 to 2002, DC didn't erase half of their legacy characters...

So you would have Superman kissing Luthor’s @$$?

[Psy-lock]

A segregationist society like the Amazons should never be presented in a good light, that's as simple as that. And I frankly don't give a fuck about poorly drawn and written stories like Perez's run (which I tried to read and found abysmally bad so fast I couldn't force myself to endure it for more than six or so issues - the only book I found as hard as that one to read was All-Star Superman, and considering how atrocious I felt forcing myself to read through this one "must-read" I honestly hadn't the stomach to do that for all of Perez's run).

It's funny that you describe pre-New 52 Amazons as horrible and say that the male gods were treated unfairly compared to the female ones when you only read a handful of issues with them. Heracles was forgiven by the Amazons, and they tried to reconnect with the outside world several times, but each time things outside of their control (usually Circe) got in the way. In Simone's run Hippolyta made Tom Tresser the first male Amazon, and later a male version of the Amazons was introduced.

[Agent Z]

So you’d would have Superman kissing Luthor’s @$$?

He did no such thing.

[Johnrevenge]

For me new 52 was the start of DC's downfall. Awful designs, bad characterizations that were so OoC for many of the characters, the erasure of continuity and many characters and too much of Rob Liefeld.