At this point, "New 52" isn't that bad at all.

[AJpyro]

You can't deny it
compared to the new 52 there is a huge lack of diversity line wide
You are either under the batman, superman, or justice league umbrella outside of that and you are screwed

Some fans only want small measures that cater to them and don't really see the bigger picture but I guess canon and continuity being fixed but having to see DC's entire publication line become 70% Batman and Superman tertiary books is a welcome compromise

Isnt the problem that no one was buying the diversity books? Also the big names and medicore ones were on the usual suspects?

[MajorHoy]

The public, with few exceptions, forgot what kind of man he was, thus a snowball effect was beginning, culminating into the disaster the DCU was in prior to Flashpoint.

Sort of what happened here in the real-world U.S. in November 2016?

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Yes.

There is that, I suppose.

You can't deny it
compared to the new 52 there is a huge lack of diversity line wide
You are either under the batman, superman, or justice league umbrella outside of that and you are screwed

Some fans only want small measures that cater to them and don't really see the bigger picture but I guess canon and continuity being fixed but having to see DC's entire publication line become 70% Batman and Superman tertiary books is a welcome compromise

I'm gonna refer you guys to this list compiled by sfighter:

Current titles with zero regular Batman/Batfamily.

Superman: son of kal-el
Action Comics
Superman & the Authority
Supergirl: woman of tomorrow
Superman red & Blue
Wonder Woman
Wonder girl
Wonder Woman Evolution
Nubia & the Amazons
Wonder Woman black and gold
Flash
Green Lantern
Green Arrow/Aquaman Deep Target
Aquaman: the becoming
Black Manta
Shazam
Crush & Lobo
Mister Miracle: source of freedom
Deathstroke Inc.
Human Target
Rorschach
Static
Hardware
icon and rocket
Suicide Squad
Suicide Squad: King Shark
Swamp Thing
Crime Syndicate
Blue and Gold
Strange Adventures

Titles where Batman/Batfamily exists but is not title character
Justice League
Justice League Incarnate
Infinite Frontier
Checkmate
Titans Academy
Titans United
Task Force Z
Dark Knights of Steel
DC vs Vampires

So that’s about 39 comics since March, not counting those non-DC superhero comics like American Vampire or nice house on the lake, that you can read if you don’t want 100% Batman focus.


Now doing the same for New 52 launch titles
Superman
Action Comics
Superboy
Supergirl
Wonder Woman
Aquaman
Green Lantern
Green Lantern Corps
Green Lantern: New Guardians
Red Lanterns
Flash
Green Arrow
Captain Atom
Fury of the Firestorm
Mister Terrific
Savage Hawkman
Blue Beetle
Hawk and Dove
Legion Lost
Legion of Superheroes
Static Shock
All Star Western
Blackhawks
Deathstroke
Grifter
Men of War
OMAC
Storm watch
Suicide Squad
Voodoo
Animal Man
Demon Knights
Frankenstein agent of shade
I Vampire
Swamp Thing
Resurrection Man
Justice League Dark

Counting Batman/Batfamily
Justice League
Justice League international
Teen Titans

So 41 here, which is about two titles more then now

So, it looks like the facts don't support your guys' conclusion, what with there actually having only been two more non-Bat books during the New 52 than now.

And honestly, if we take into account the fact that the New 52 Suicide Squad was very Bat-centric with Deadshot and Harley leading the team, whereas now Peacemaker and Superboy have taken their place, then we should say that the New 52 only had ONE more non-Batman book than now.

[Rod G]

Sort of what happened here in the real-world U.S. in November 2016?

Just as bad or worse, I guess.

[InfamousBG]

At first I was a fan of the New 52 but after getting into the thick of things and all the changes...I was not a fan.

Hoping DC does not try to pull another like that ever again. Yes there were some interesting stuff they did with many characters but in the end I did not like it.

[Greta]

Change is scary for a lot of people; just look at Trump supporters.

The New 52 was never bad, but hating it anyway was fashionable online at the time. There was a huge bandwagon effect where people who were unexposed to the genre were conditioned to think it's bad without even reading anything that came before. And there was A LOT of bad stuff before the New 52. People are naturally averse to change in general -- and this is a genre in which people hate even positive change because it screws with their precious long-term headcanons and threatens their imagined gatekeeping status. As a result, many people went into the new 52 era planning to hate it. These are not people who are willing to unbend themselves. These are not people who are willing to have their minds changed -- even now. These are not people who step back and reflect; they just react. They decided since Flashpoint that they hated the New 52. That is what much of the hate came down to. That is sad, and I feel sorry for them.

The unvarnished truth is that the New 52 had some of the best and most fun events and story arcs that DC ever published. Examples:

JL Trinity War
Forever Evil
Death of the Family
Throne of Atlantis
Justice League War
The Multiversity
Rotworld
JL: SQ
Darkseid War
Basically Every Combined Event from Green Lantern, New Guardians, Red Lanterns, Yellow Lanterns books


These were unequivocally phenomenal story arcs. Those who would say otherwise have a bit of denial going or just an inherent resentment of what the New 52 represents. During New 52, DC also had some of the best written titles they had had in a long time. Again, these are all recognized as unquestionably good books:

Aquaman
Johns' Superman
Morrison's Action Comics
Superman Unchained
Batman and Robin
Batman Inc.
Simone's Batgirl
JL, JLD, JL 3000
JL 3000
Flash Vols 1-5
Azarello's Wonder Woman
Valentine's Catwoman
Lemire's Green Arrow
Johns' Shazam
Red Lanterns
New Guardians
Omega Men
Lobdell's Red Hood and the Outlaws
Animal Man
Sword of Sorcery
I, Vampire
Gotham Academy

And those are just off the top of my head. That's lot of popular books in so short a period of time, many which ran for years, and there are more. Now, compare that number of books to the number of really good, really memorable titles you can count in your head since Rebirth era ended. Go ahead -- do it. Finished? Yeah. That pretty much ends the discussion.

New 52 was not perfect; completely reinventing Wally West was a mistake and to many people unforgiveable. Some of them would have accepted the New 52 if Wally were rebooted as the same red haired kid with a personality consistent with his old self instead of a randomly black kid who had nothing in common. That was a mistake; I would say even their biggest one. Everything else was easily correctable and fixable. Other than that, New 52 was excellent. It is also considered the golden age of DC's foray into truly expanding magic within the universe, with books such as Demon Knights, Swamp thing, JLD, I, Vampire, and Animal Man being truly special. There was also a very well-defined flow to the continuity. Events, relationship statuses, character powers were super consistent between contemporary titles and there was a conveniently simple linear chronology which we no longer have. It was just very crisp.

Compare that to post-Metal, where we have nonstop "retellings" of character origins and events sometimes repeating, and it's often unclear when or even if titles are canon or just "reimagined" for the umpteenth time. This is especially true of digital firsts. Also, some characters who were finally coming into their own during New 52 such as Carol Ferris who finally had some autonomy and agency were sent back to the kitchen to return things to a "status quo." Now, Carol is back to being a sometimes-referenced (but almost never seen) booty call/sex toy that is off-limits to everybody but Hal Jordan while he plays Lost in Space. Meanwhile, we get underwhelming, crap events like Endless Winter and the endless mediocrity that was Perpetua and her retro-wannabe Legion of Doom.

Uhm, yeah. I think I hit the important points.

To OP: Yes, the New 52 was very good. Some mistakes were made, but that isn't the fault of the individual New 52 titles nor does it detract from their excellent quality. Many good things came out of New 52, including Rebirth which I consider to be DC's last "mini golden age" as it combined the best of the New 52 with the best of the pre 52. I wish they had kept that going. You are correct in that in suggesting it is becoming less fashionable to hate on New 52. That is because enough time has passed to compare to life without it -- which right now is a chaotic hell. Meanwhile, people still read New 52 as a starting off point. You will still find some who will continue to call New 52 "dumpster fire" until they are blue in the face. My guess is that such people will be unhappy with anything you put in front of them. The killing joke is on them as DC just lurches from mess to mess -- and them with it.

[Citizen Kane]

I didn't mind some of the stories the New 52 produced, but there was no reason the DC universe had to be completely rebooted. Unfortunately, many of the good New 52 publications are stained from that choice, and it really just started to feel you were reading an elseworlds story...but it was an elseworlds story that you were being told was the new status quo...and it wasn't a good elseworlds story. It was like if Marvel decided to tell everyone that The Ultimates universe was the normal universe now, and the events of the 616 universe never happened. As soon as I heard what the New 52 was going to be, I checked out. I didn't really start collecting anything from the New 52 until after it was canned. It's a shame so many intriguing plotlines stemming from the pre-New 52 era were essentially abandoned for the less interesting plotlines that were conceived in the New 52.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

The New 52 was never bad, but hating it anyway was fashionable online at the time. There was a huge bandwagon effect where people who were unexposed to the genre were conditioned to think it's bad without even reading anything that came before. And there was A LOT of bad stuff before the New 52. People are naturally averse to change in general -- and this is a genre in which people hate even positive change because it screws with their precious long-term headcanons and threatens their imagined gatekeeping status. As a result, many people went into the new 52 era planning to hate it. These are not people who are willing to unbend themselves. These are not people who are willing to have their minds changed -- even now. These are not people who step back and reflect; they just react. They decided since Flashpoint that they hated the New 52. That is what much of the hate came down to. That is sad, and I feel sorry for them.

The unvarnished truth is that the New 52 had some of the best and most fun events and story arcs that DC ever published. Examples:

JL Trinity War
Forever Evil
Death of the Family
Throne of Atlantis
Justice League War
The Multiversity
Rotworld
JL: SQ
Darkseid War
Basically Every Combined Event from Green Lantern, New Guardians, Red Lanterns, Yellow Lanterns books

Actually, no not really. I went into the New 52 wanting to love it. I was actually REALLY excited about it. But then...yeah, no I realized that it was deeply flawed. The continuity didn't make sense anymore. The characters were being written pettily and OOC. A lot of the story arcs went for shock value over substance.

And a lot of the arcs you cite here? Yeah...I don't think many actually DO place them as some of the "best and most fun events and story arcs that DC ever published." Like, not even close.

Trinity War? Yeah, I remember there being a lot of backlash to that story, especially when it had Superman kill Dr. Light for simple shock value. And it wasn't really remembered all that fondly. Same thing with Death of the Family. It was an okay, maybe even good Batman story, but not many Batman fans would consider it as one of the "best" Batman stories of all time or even of the last ten years.

You may have liked these stories and consider them some of the best. But the fanbase in general? Yeah, a lot of them do not.

And I say that as someone who actually genuinely likes a lot of Scott Snyder's run. His opening arc, the Court of Owls, was amazing IMO. And Snyder certainly contributed some elements to the Batman mythos that will likely stick around for a long time to come.

HOWEVER, you have to ask: did the good stuff that came with the New 52 outweigh the bad? Or, more specifically: did the good things that the New 52 contribute justify the wholesale erasure of decades of continuity, character development, several characters, and lore of the DC Universe?

And I have to say, the answer to that would probably be no. A lot of the good that came with the New 52 (i.e. pretty much just the fact that Aquaman gained some increased prominence) could have been accomplished without rebooting. Like, 100%. Johns was already giving Aquaman some love in Brightest Day. The reboot was pretty unnecessary.

[InfamousBG]

Same thing with Death of the Family. It was an okay, maybe even good Batman story, but not many Batman fans would consider it as one of the "best" Batman stories of all time or even of the last ten years.

You may have liked these stories and consider them some of the best. But the fanbase in general? Yeah, a lot of them do not.

The only part of Death of the Family I liked was when we all thought Joker really did cut off all their faces...but he didn't. Was very let down by that.

I was actually let down by a lot of stores from the New 52. I did not like Trinity War at all.

[InfamousBG]

To OP: Yes, the New 52 was very good. Some mistakes were made, but that isn't the fault of the individual New 52 titles nor does it detract from their excellent quality.

I disagree.

[Drako]

It's weird to dismiss people that don't like that era by basically calling them haters. The New 52 had more mistakes than hits. And i most definitely would not define that era as fun.

[Sacred Knight]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


No


The whole reason why Batman is dominant is because new 52 so thoroughly destroyed every other franchise that Batman was the only one who came out unscathed and still popular

The rest are either making a brutally slow recovery(Superman and Wonder Woman) or are completely unable to carry a series anymore

That's just not true at all. Batman was completely dominant well before the New 52 was even a thought.

And Superman's been in a constant state of recovery mode for 30 years because of DC's mismanagement. And its not getting any better now, its getting a lot worse.

[Greta]

HOWEVER, you have to ask: did the good stuff that came with the New 52 outweigh the bad? Or, more specifically: did the good things that the New 52 contribute justify the wholesale erasure of decades of continuity, character development, several characters, and lore of the DC Universe?

To the first question absolutely yes. The second question is a false assumption.

Actually, no not really. I went into the New 52 wanting to love it. I was actually REALLY excited about it. But then...yeah, no I realized that it was deeply flawed. The continuity didn't make sense anymore. The characters were being written pettily and OOC. A lot of the story arcs went for shock value over substance.

And a lot of the arcs you cite here? Yeah...I don't think many actually DO place them as some of the "best and most fun events and story arcs that DC ever published." Like, not even close.

Trinity War? Yeah, I remember there being a lot of backlash to that story, especially when it had Superman kill Dr. Light for simple shock value. And it wasn't really remembered all that fondly. Same thing with Death of the Family. It was an okay, maybe even good Batman story, but not many Batman fans would consider it as one of the "best" Batman stories of all time or even of the last ten years.

You may have liked these stories and consider them some of the best. But the fanbase in general? Yeah, a lot of them do not.

And I say that as someone who actually genuinely likes a lot of Scott Snyder's run. His opening arc, the Court of Owls, was amazing IMO. And Snyder certainly contributed some elements to the Batman mythos that will likely stick around for a long time to come.

HOWEVER, you have to ask: did the good stuff that came with the New 52 outweigh the bad? Or, more specifically: did the good things that the New 52 contribute justify the wholesale erasure of decades of continuity, character development, several characters, and lore of the DC Universe?

And I have to say, the answer to that would probably be no. A lot of the good that came with the New 52 (i.e. pretty much just the fact that Aquaman gained some increased prominence) could have been accomplished without rebooting. Like, 100%. Johns was already giving Aquaman some love in Brightest Day. The reboot was pretty unnecessary.

Firstly, nobody here -- neither me nor you -- is equipped to speak for the fanbase. Secondly, you are picking and choosing to address examples you don't like personally rather than on the basis of how successful they were. All the titles I mentioned were critically acclaimed and successful. That isn't a personal opinion; it's an objective and well-documented fact based on meta-reviews and sales. So... yeah. Thirdly, be careful to confuse opinions you hear in online echo chambers with the opinions of all real life fans. Internet users in online communities have a huge propensity for sheltering themselves in groups that complain about the same thing and end up mistakenly believing everyone else out there shares the same general opinion. They don't. Most fans of the genre don't even regularly visit much less post on sites like this, so you do not hear from them. For example:

The only part of Death of the Family I liked was when we all thought Joker really did cut off all their faces...but he didn't. Was very let down by that.

I was actually let down by a lot of stores from the New 52. I did not like Trinity War at all.

That's you and the forumites you talk to, and certainly others out there... but it is not everyone else -- not that could demonstrate, anyway. It is also not an opinion that is reflected in the success of the stories and the acclaim they received.

[Greta]

It's weird to dismiss people that don't like that era by basically calling them haters. The New 52 had more mistakes than hits. And i most definitely would not define that era as fun.

No worries -- class isn't dismissed. I'll let you know when the lesson is over.

[Drako]

No worries -- class isn't dismissed. I'll let you know when the lesson is over.

I don't really need any lesson about this subject, but thanks anyway.