Hank Hall and Dawn Granger: Should they be a Couple?

[M L A]

Not after that rape and reincarnated Hector thing.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Likely a budget issue. There's already precedent for that sort of thing in adaptations anyway.

Yeah, but super strength and agility are hardly budget busters.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Yeah, but super strength and agility are hardly budget busters.

True and they were able to do it for Donna Troy. Although, I guess when the show first debuted, as part of the DC Universe app, there wasn't really much of a budget to go on. As time has gone on though and the show has been picked up by HBO Max, they might definitely have some more leeway to play with. I have noticed that Kory's powers look more realized.

And I just had a though. One that's very spoilery, so I'm gonna put it in spoiler tags:

spoilers:

Maaaaaaaaayyyybe they will be bringing their powers into it. Maybe they'll bring back Hank, saying he was revived by the Lord of Chaos and, to save him from some gruesome fate, Dawn volunteers to be the emissary of the Lord of Order

end of spoilers

[The Cool Thatguy]

True and they were able to do it for Donna Troy. Although, I guess when the show first debuted, as part of the DC Universe app, there wasn't really much of a budget to go on. As time has gone on though and the show has been picked up by HBO Max, they might definitely have some more leeway to play with. I have noticed that Kory's powers look more realized.

And I just had a though. One that's very spoilery, so I'm gonna put it in spoiler tags:

spoilers:

Maaaaaaaaayyyybe they will be bringing their powers into it. Maybe they'll bring back Hank, saying he was revived by the Lord of Chaos and, to save him from some gruesome fate, Dawn volunteers to be the emissary of the Lord of Order

end of spoilers

I believe Hank's actor is gonna be in the new Jack Reacher tv show, so...unlikely

[Veni]

I believe Hank's actor is gonna be in the new Jack Reacher tv show, so...unlikely

Yes, he will. But Hank's actor got cast as Jack Reacher in September and filming of the 3rd season of Titans began in October. So I doubt they changed the script at the last minute. Jack Reacher is currently in pre-production. He will not be a regular next season but could make guest appearances.

[Captain Nostalgia]

I haven't watched the Titans tv show, and I know that WB doesn't often portray superheroes as how they behave in the comics, so I cannot comment on that, ...but as far as the comics go...

Hank Hall is too much of an aggressive chauvinist for Dawn.

I'm also not a fan of Dove being a woman in general only because it plays on that Hawk & Dove masculine feminine polarity....

whereby Dove's values are considered weaker & effeminate in comparison to Hawk's hyper masculine right wing credo.

I don't think that's the best message to send out. Personally I think Dove's politics are superior to Hawk's in many ways....especially considering that hyper masculine leaders like Trump and Bolsonaro turned out to be weak, regardless if your right or left wing.

[ultradav]

I haven't watched the Titans tv show, and I know that WB doesn't often portray superheroes as how they behave in the comics, so I cannot comment on that, ...but as far as the comics go...

Hank Hall is too much of an aggressive chauvinist for Dawn.

I'm also not a fan of Dove being a woman in general only because it plays on that Hawk & Dove masculine feminine polarity....

whereby Dove's values are considered weaker & effeminate in comparison to Hawk's hyper masculine right wing credo.

I don't think that's the best message to send out. Personally I think Dove's politics are superior to Hawk's in many ways....especially considering that hyper masculine leaders like Trump and Bolsonaro turned out to be weak, regardless if your right or left wing.

So what I loved about the Kesel Hawk and Dove series of the late 80s / 90s was that it corrected a few of these things. Dove was shown more offensively and formidable while still retaining a style that was different from Hawk. Hawk and Dove had very different viewpoints (on many things, including politics), but one was not shown as being better. Sometimes Dove's approach was best. Sometimes Hawk's approach was best. It was pretty balanced, the theme of the book was basically that they needed each other and to work together to be at their best.

I like Titans but yes it's the same old trap of Dove soothing and calming Hawk, Dove being the perfect woman and Hawk being a typical guy. There are layers to it but it's back to that dynamic in many ways.

[Captain Nostalgia]

So what I loved about the Kesel Hawk and Dove series of the late 80s / 90s was that it corrected a few of these things. Dove was shown more offensively and formidable while still retaining a style that was different from Hawk. Hawk and Dove had very different viewpoints (on many things, including politics), but one was not shown as being better. Sometimes Dove's approach was best. Sometimes Hawk's approach was best. It was pretty balanced, the theme of the book was basically that they needed each other and to work together to be at their best.

I like Titans but yes it's the same old trap of Dove soothing and calming Hawk, Dove being the perfect woman and Hawk being a typical guy. There are layers to it but it's back to that dynamic in many ways.

Well perhaps I need to go back and read the old stuff as my memory is vague on the mini series they had, but I still feel that making Dove a woman reinforces that Dove's values are feminine and weaker, while Hawk's are masculine and stronger.

Which wouldn't be so bad if Hawk wasn't such a douche. (Don't get me wrong I love Hawk as a character, but he is aggro meathead personified)

I guess it bothers me because they represent two different geo political philosophies that can be seen in a negative light with these weird gender tags attached to them. Hawk as first strike doctrine (Masculine), Dove as passive appeasement. (Feminine)

...but as you say the series attempted to correct these things.

[ultradav]

Well perhaps I need to go back and read the old stuff as my memory is vague on the mini series they had, but I still feel that making Dove a woman reinforces that Dove's values are feminine and weaker, while Hawk's are masculine and stronger.

Which wouldn't be so bad if Hawk wasn't such a douche. (Don't get me wrong I love Hawk as a character, but he is aggro meathead personified)

I guess it bothers me because they represent two different geo political philosophies that can be seen in a negative light with these weird gender tags attached to them. Hawk as first strike doctrine (Masculine), Dove as passive appeasement. (Feminine)

...but as you say the series attempted to correct these things.

I guess it depends how you look at it, Dove's values don't become weaker because she's a woman, but perhaps to some they get read that way. But in the series they kind of side stepped the "war and peace" thing (which is dated IMO to Vietnam anyway) and made them avatars of order and chaos instead.

I don't enjoy the war and peace stuff, as you say it usually just ends up making Dove (whether Don or Dawn) look weak / whiny unless the writer is really skillful at showing the contrast (but let's face it most writers aren't).

[Captain Nostalgia]

I guess it depends how you look at it, Dove's values don't become weaker because she's a woman, but perhaps to some they get read that way. But in the series they kind of side stepped the "war and peace" thing (which is dated IMO to Vietnam anyway) and made them avatars of order and chaos instead.

I don't enjoy the war and peace stuff, as you say it usually just ends up making Dove (whether Don or Dawn) look weak / whiny unless the writer is really skillful at showing the contrast (but let's face it most writers aren't).

I'll defer to your judgment on the Hawk & Dawn mini series as my recollection of it is sparse at best. The avatars of order and chaos sound interesting though.

I think the geo political war and peace stance is pretty much engrained in their characters as their names suggest, being culture byproducts of the Vietnam war. I understand the affection of Dawn, but personally I would welcome the return of Don.

To me Don is the good "everyman" character in contrast to Hawk, who has an almost villanous persona at times.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Well perhaps I need to go back and read the old stuff as my memory is vague on the mini series they had, but I still feel that making Dove a woman reinforces that Dove's values are feminine and weaker, while Hawk's are masculine and stronger.

Well, I guess that would depend on if people actually did equate the feminine with being "weaker." I'm not saying that you necessarily do, but there is unfortunately this societal association between the two, which is groundless and based mostly on sexist tropes.

[Captain Nostalgia]

Well, I guess that would depend on if people actually did equate the feminine with being "weaker." I'm not saying that you necessarily do, but there is unfortunately this societal association between the two, which is groundless and based mostly on sexist tropes.

Do I? No of course not.

Historically though, women have traditionally been subordinated to men in most societies, which most likely resulted in rigid gender roles as masculine or feminine.

Biologically on average, they are physically weaker in terms of muscle mass and strength, which helped reinforce this sentiment.

In the original Hawk & Dove of the late 60's there is that undercurrent of thought, because that was the conventional norm back than. (Take a look at some of the covers)

[Nomads1]

While I'm not against some sexual tension, I have to say I prefer them as merely partners. As some cops may testify, the partnership of putting one's life in the other's hand can result in a bond even stronger than couples have. I liked that Hank and Dawn were like this. I think it was a smart move on the Kesels' part. I also loved Ren and Hank together, though I don't think Dawn ever found a good match. Desliked both os her relations with Captain Arsala (R.I.P. He deserved better. I desliked the relationship, not the character) and with Deadman (seriously?).

Peace