The Flash is too Fast

[Stanlos]

I don't think Flash is too fast. I do think after Waid left people just popped a squat all over the years speed force to the point of Emotional Spectrum levels of doofiness.

[JackDaw]

I don't think Flash is too fast. I do think after Waid left people just popped a squat all over the years speed force to the point of Emotional Spectrum levels of doofiness.

Yes, I think practically all the problems lie with the speed force.

But my own gut feeling is that most of the problems problems were there by the end of the Waid run.

Put it this way IF the purpose of the Speed Force was to provide a coherent scientific explanation of all the seemingly impossible feats the Flash does…it’s failed. I’d usually have to add “in my subjective opinion”. But I think it’s a near universal opinion…I can’t recall anyone ever mounting a credible argument that it’s remotely scientific. That’s down to Waid.

Beyond that I think the rules of what can be done via the speed force are too ill defined…even by the standards of fantasy comics.

It allows The Flash (at least a full strength Wally) to add or steal speed speed from others, and to create speed constructs, as well as the standard Flash powers of effectively limitless acceleration, speed, and phasing through objects.

The limits of those extra powers have never been spelt out. There must be limits to Flash’s ability to take away speed from others…otherwise he can instantly win any fight against any opponent by instantly making them completely immobile.

Similarly his powers of adding speed must be limited…otherwise he can move objects of any weight by adding speed to them. Or make the entire JLA as fast as he is.

Similarly there must be limits to Flash’s ability to create force constructs…or effectively he can do anything a GL can do, but gazillions of times faster.

But any limits are completely unspecified…and again thats down to Waid.

Where the speed force was a success (I think) was featuring in some exciting stories in the original Waid run…I think as the comics came out there was an allure and mystery to the speed force, and it was an exciting part of a great run of comics.

But…I think it’s long ago stopped being a positive. (Part of the original fun was wondering how Waid was going to make it coherently scientific. And wondering what rules he would wrap around the concept…but eventually the penny dropped that that was never going to be done.)

I sort of hoped that at some point it would disappear…there’s patently a few interesting ways that could be arranged.

[SuperX]

If we didn't have the speed force couldn't the speedsters still just push their selves to the point that they could still run as fast as they do now? Do all the speed tricks they do because of the speed force? And why could different speedsters harness speed in different ways, like throwing lightning or phasing thru things?

[D.Z]

Do you want to give Wally a top speed of 700 mph again?

[Doctor Know]

Do you want to give Wally a top speed of 700 mph again?

You could still track Flash speeds in Machs, if you like.

Mach 1 is the speed of sound at 766 mph. A speed both Barry and Superman avoid moving at while inside cities or near people. As to not create sonic booms and damage property or people.

Mach scale goes up to 25 on Earth. With Mach 33 being escape velocity. Where Earth's gravity can no longer hold you and you'd run off into space.

[Dred]

Before Crisis, I think everyone accepted that we shouldn't try to apply our universe rules to the characters. It was a fantasy universe where impossible things could happen. But after Crisis they tried to force the heroes into more of a Marvel style universe and characters that were based in science had to behave according to physical laws (as badly as the writers understood those laws). This didn't aplly to characters based in magic. But Flash and Superman being based in science had to slow down (and Superman couldn't fly through time at will or through outer space without breathing apparatus--which really killed a lot of the fantasy for me).

That's why Mark Waid had to invent the Speed Force, which was supposed to be science but really was just magic, so he could have Wally do the kind of things that Barry would do in the pre-Crisis universe. Ideally, they would have just left the fantasy as it was--but once they insisted on explaining the science, they put themselves in a corner.

That's not why Mark Waid invented the Speed Force. Again. The Flash never needed an excuse to do absurd things. Wally as Kid Flash was doing plenty of physics defying nonsense long before The Speed Force existed. Waid invented the Speed Force, in his own words, as a "temple of doom" for the hero to escape.

Yes, I think practically all the problems lie with the speed force.

But my own gut feeling is that most of the problems problems were there by the end of the Waid run.

Put it this way IF the purpose of the Speed Force was to provide a coherent scientific explanation of all the seemingly impossible feats the Flash does…it’s failed.

Again, this is not what the Speed Force was created for. I don't know where people got this idea. The first main thing the Speed Force did was try to kill Wally for 10 years. It's a plot device, just a popular one.

Barry was one of the most powerful heroes in the multiverse, one of the only heroes capable of thwarting the Anti Monitor's plans. That didn't require any Speed Force. Anything done with the Speed Force could be pretty equally explained away by saying the Flash does it with the same Silver Age Speed Aura he always had.

The main thing the Speed Force provided was an ethereal antagonistic presence at first and, in a broader sense, a unifying origin to create a specific cast of like characters in the same way that all the Super Family have "Kryptonian" uniting them, all the Green Lanterns had the Central Battery, etc.

[D.Z]

You could still track Flash speeds in Machs, if you like.

Mach 1 is the speed of sound at 766 mph. A speed both Barry and Superman avoid moving at while inside cities or near people. As to not create sonic booms and damage property or people.

Mach scale goes up to 25 on Earth. With Mach 33 being escape velocity. Where Earth's gravity can no longer hold you and you'd run off into space.

Sounds ok to me, but they would have to do that post next reality alterations but leave history intact, the science just happended different.

[JackDaw]

The main thing the Speed Force provided was an ethereal antagonistic presence at first and, in a broader sense, a unifying origin to create a specific cast of like characters in the same way that all the Super Family have "Kryptonian" uniting them, all the Green Lanterns had the Central Battery, etc.

Cheers. All you put was interesting and informative, and I actually think as I brood on it in next few days, it will change my feelings about the force.

Certainly one thought was triggered by bit quoted: that you could have an approach where as more speedsters drew on the force at the same time the harder and harder the top end feats become.

So say, if 20 speedsters are operating at once, Mach 6 is near the limit. But if 10 of those speedsters lent their speed to a champion….becoming inactive….the champion can then perform even more stupendous feats.

But, it is a train of thought, of course, driven by my innate bias that there ought to be a reason why the Flash is not constantly winning fights in micro seconds using the full range of his powers, and there should be an effective weakness of some sort.

[Dred]

Cheers. All you put was interesting and informative, and I actually think as I brood on it in next few days, it will change my feelings about the force.

Certainly one thought was triggered by bit quoted: that you could have an approach where as more speedsters drew on the force at the same time the harder and harder the top end feats become.

So say, if 20 speedsters are operating at once, Mach 6 is near the limit. But if 10 of those speedsters lent their speed to a champion….becoming inactive….the champion can then perform even more stupendous feats.

But, it is a train of thought, of course, driven by my innate bias that there ought to be a reason why the Flash is not constantly winning fights in micro seconds using the full range of his powers, and there should be an effective weakness of some sort.

Kind of the same reason Superman doesn't. Superman's got enough speed to solve all these problems. The silly upper end speed feats for Flash are, yes, absurd but they're functionally identical to solving 99.9% of situations as Superman's speed. It only really comes up against other speedsters.

[JackDaw]

Kind of the same reason Superman doesn't. Superman's got enough speed to solve all these problems. The silly upper end speed feats for Flash are, yes, absurd but they're functionally identical to solving 99.9% of situations as Superman's speed. It only really comes up against other speedsters.

Yes.

And…of course..it’s not just Flash and Superman whose top end feats are over the top. It’s practically all DC/ Marvel heavy hitters.

Obviously it’s all down to taste, and a long time ago I loved ultra powerful characters…so can easily understand why comics featuring them sell.

But nowadays I tend to prefer lower to mid range powersets, and ideally a C or D level lead where there might just be some character development. (I take the view that any run featuring a C lead that gets to a dozen issues or more is probably well written.)

[Jim Kelly]

That's not why Mark Waid invented the Speed Force. Again. The Flash never needed an excuse to do absurd things. Wally as Kid Flash was doing plenty of physics defying nonsense long before The Speed Force existed. Waid invented the Speed Force, in his own words, as a "temple of doom" for the hero to escape.

Post-Crisis, Wally was a lot slower than Barry had been pre-Crisis. He could break the sound barrier and he had an aura that protected him from burning up. There was the whole Velocity-9 storyline where characters tried to increase their speed.

The difference between pre-Crisis and post-Crisis is pretty clear. Did the post-Crisis writers do ridiculous things that make no sense according actual science, sure. Maybe they just didn't have a very good education or they hoped readers wouldn't notice. It's pretty clear to me that John Byrne's efforts to explain Superman feats according to science-sounding ideas were because he thought Superman needed to make sense in this kind of universe. His cells being solar batteries and his flight being tactile tlekinesis is all a bunch of horse manure--but it sounds scientific enough to fit the new order.

[married guy]

The other way to look at it is that stating Flash is too fast is like saying Superman is too super.
It's comics. None of it holds up under any sort of ridicule. Just lean back and enjoy a well written story!
Me? I love the absurd stuff! Flash visited another Earth by vibrating at a different frequency? C'MON!! That's plain AWESOME!

[D.Z]

Post Crisis Superman powers were lowered and some powers even removed.

[Menacer]

I don’t think people have any idea how fast the speed of light is. Having the Flash be that fast kind of brakes the character. None of his villains (except for the evil speedsters) should really be able to do anything against him. Speed of Light is so fast the most writers have to forget he’s that fast most of the time in order to make a story interesting.

One component would be how long does it take barry to get up to those faster speeds.

Also when it comes to comics and super heroes over thinking is always going to lead to a bad time.

Batman basically never makes sense. You really have to have suspension of disbelief. Just the fact he doesn't use guns and faces off agaisnt armed people. Let alone super powered people is utter ridiculousness.

You must have healthy suspension of disbelief to make comics work.

Same goes for continuity of continuities... you over think it Dc universe breaks.

If your gonna enjoy comic books switching the rational side of the brain off is important.

Anyone who says otherwise is lying

[InfamousBG]

Me? I love the absurd stuff! Flash visited another Earth by vibrating at a different frequency? C'MON!! That's plain AWESOME!

That is awesome!!!! I totally agree. I try not to think "outside of comics" when I am reading.