The Flash is too Fast

[phantom1592]

The other way to look at it is that stating Flash is too fast is like saying Superman is too super.
It's comics. None of it holds up under any sort of ridicule. Just lean back and enjoy a well written story!
Me? I love the absurd stuff! Flash visited another Earth by vibrating at a different frequency? C'MON!! That's plain AWESOME!

I like my super feats... but there are always some that are just 'too much'. I remember Morrison I think writing a Nuclear bomb going off, and Flash evacuating every living soul in the entire city in less than a second or something. That broke believability for me. At that point there's not much challenge for a character like that.

He was….illustrated for example..by way he travelled through time using the cosmic treadmill. Similarly, so was Superman (though probably Superboy more regularly demonstrated this). Not sure about Jay…though I have seen word captions that credit him as faster than light.

Wally as Kid Flash in Silver Age was also I think FTL. It was only later when Wally was slowly ramped up after a period when he’d been significantly depowered that FTL became a target he could only reach via the new concept of the speed force…..there were plenty of FTL feats before Mark Waid invented the concept of speed force..

Yep!! The mechanic I remember seeing was 'If you break the speed of light, you go back to your original time'. So literally EVERY time that Barry or Reverse Flash were bouncing around the future, someone was 'Hitting the speed of light' so he could go back home. There were situations like Barry being trapped in a cell too small to get up to that speed and things like that, but there were also times he had to 'run through space' in a Superman race where Speed of light was nothing and they were zooming between planets easy.

[Dred]

I like my super feats... but there are always some that are just 'too much'. I remember Morrison I think writing a Nuclear bomb going off, and Flash evacuating every living soul in the entire city in less than a second or something. That broke believability for me. At that point there's not much challenge for a character like that.




Yep!! The mechanic I remember seeing was 'If you break the speed of light, you go back to your original time'. So literally EVERY time that Barry or Reverse Flash were bouncing around the future, someone was 'Hitting the speed of light' so he could go back home. There were situations like Barry being trapped in a cell too small to get up to that speed and things like that, but there were also times he had to 'run through space' in a Superman race where Speed of light was nothing and they were zooming between planets easy.

That was written by Joe Kelly. Well, well past when Morrison was done writing JLA.

And in that same story Flash was completely helpless to stop Fernus. Too fast, huh?

[Slaughter]

You could still track Flash speeds in Machs, if you like.

Mach 1 is the speed of sound at 766 mph. A speed both Barry and Superman avoid moving at while inside cities or near people. As to not create sonic booms and damage property or people.

Mach scale goes up to 25 on Earth. With Mach 33 being escape velocity. Where Earth's gravity can no longer hold you and you'd run off into space.

I liked when the Flash show used Machs to track Barry's speed. Barry reaching Mach 1 was kind of achievement there, same as when he used a Tachyon device to reach Mach 12. But then he got a power-up and his speed was pretty much "GOES FAST".

That's... an interesting way to scale the speed. Especially the Escape Velocity thing. This could lead to interesting concepts, like Barry being able to travel into orbit if he goes fast enough (imagine Barry literally running to the Justice League Watchtower), or speedster duels ending in games of chicken where the challenge is not to be the fastest, but also to find ways to go as fast as possible without running into space (and then dying/being put out of the fight). This could also lead to interesting action in space adventures - heavy gravity planets allow the Flash to run faster, but the higher gravity makes each blow more powerful and his weight heavier, and lower gravities actually make the Flash slower because escape velocity decreases. And pure space allowing The Flash to reach Lightpeed because there's no gravity to escape from, as long as he has a surface to run on.


Btw, weren't there some speedsters who could kind of fly by running so fast they break the hold of Earth's gravity?

[Jim Kelly]

The other way to look at it is that stating Flash is too fast is like saying Superman is too super.
It's comics. None of it holds up under any sort of ridicule. Just lean back and enjoy a well written story!
Me? I love the absurd stuff! Flash visited another Earth by vibrating at a different frequency? C'MON!! That's plain AWESOME!

Believe me, I would love it if we could go back to that state of affairs. My argument is that once Crisis kicked in, they tried to make out that the new comics were better than the old ones because everything made more sense, therefore we should love the new comics. Some editors were downright abusive toward any fans who wished comics could be how they used to be. To this day, people laugh at the old comics and say how stupid they were--not realizing that their modern comics are just as stupid and I'd argue more stupid because modern comics try to make out that they exist in a more serious world. In the old days, we didn't have illusions that any of this was serious or grounded in reality.

Looking at the old comics from the perspective of a kid--it just seems that there was always something faster, something stronger. This is the basic concept kids learn. There's no end to the universe, it just goes on and on. So it seems that you should just be able to go faster and faster. It was easy to believe that these impossible speeds were possible, because understanding Einsteinian physics was beyond most eight year old children.

I have no problem with comics being written to that level. But it still has to be said (for the sake of education)--the Flash is too fast--in the real world there is a limit to how fast anything can go.

[SanityOrMadness]

The basic problem here isn't the Speed Force. It's not the Flash's speed relative to Superman's (or other non-speedster characters). It's not even what can actually happen IRL. It's this (this specific example from Flash #768, the first issue of the current run):



Literally all Flash's fights with non-speedsters should go like this unless there is some context-specific nerf in play (which you can't do too often, or you hit the Worf Effect). He's too fast to tell stories with actual fights unless you blatantly ignore what he can do (which is the usual practice), have him fight only guys as fast as him, or divorce matters completely from anything even resembling real life in favour of rainbow time tunnels and other "cosmic" stuff.

If you were building a speedster character from scratch in your own universe, there would be plenty of ways to mitigate this - for instance, bringing up rather than dodging what would happen to a human fist hitting, well, anything at several hundred mph or more so that they can't just punch everyone out (even interacting with flesh in a more "gentle" way at super-speed would be incredibly risky, your careful tying up of someone at super-speed becomes a whip slamming into them from their POV), as well as things like escape velocity. But that ship hasn't just sailed with the Flash(es), it's rounded the world several times and is currently rusting in a breaker's yard in Bangladesh. Anyone who tried to nerf them would be ignored by writers in other books, and almost certainly reversed by the next writer in line who wants a cool stunt.

(And, yes, most of this applies to Superman & co too, except that he has actual invulnerability. The Flashes are all about as strong and invulnerable as him in practice to do what they do, they just don't have it listed in their stat blocks.)

[NaVi]

When we talk about first level characters (famous), we can add Marvel and Dc, Flash beats them all in less than 1 second. Flash is a thousand times faster than any hero, he hits with the force of superman, he is just as invulnerable as superman, in addition to being able to steal speed and travel through time, Flash is literally invincible among famous characters.

[JackDaw]

When we talk about first level characters (famous), we can add Marvel and Dc, Flash beats them all in less than 1 second. Flash is a thousand times faster than any hero, he hits with the force of superman, he is just as invulnerable as superman, in addition to being able to steal speed and travel through time, Flash is literally invincible among famous characters.

Maybe a tad underpowered then...if we’re assuming it takes him a part of second.

Surely he should be doing it in zero time by using his time travel power?

[NaVi]

Maybe a tad underpowered then...if we’re assuming it takes him a part of second.

Surely he should be doing it in zero time by using his time travel power?

1s is with Flash giving the advantage, fighting without using all his powers.

[SuperX]

So supermans invulnerability means nothing against a flashs speed attacks? Durable enough to go into a sun, amd he can't handle a speedsters punches?

[Dred]

So supermans invulnerability means nothing against a flashs speed attacks? Durable enough to go into a sun, amd he can't handle a speedsters punches?

Depends. If the point of the story is to show The Flash being powerful, his punches will harm Superman. If the point of the story is to show Superman being powerful, then Flash's punches wouldn't phase Superman at all.

And the thing is, whenever there's a team up like in the Justice League, The Flash is very, very, very rarely depicted as the one who saves the day in any situation. He's always relegated to crowd control and jobs out to any threat. Which kind of shows how silly this thread is. Flash is just fast enough to run face first into Batman's robot goop or Catwoman's kick or whatever villain du jour shows up to incapacitate him while Superman or Batman or Wonder Woman actually save the day. The Flashes are so fast and powerful that every single thing they did in Death Metal was a useless waste because they played into evil Joker Batman's never ending backup plans. But Wonder Woman and Superman and Batman all made giant impacts and big differences all throughout Metal and Death Metal.

So, while everyone is saying The Flash is too fast, no one's saying Superman is too strong, Batman is too smart, Wonder Woman is too important, even though all of those traits far, far, far outshine whichever Flash shows up in every situation where the heroes are compared to each other. Jesus, I can't even remember the last major JL arc where The Flash was the central hero of the story. Yet we have an entire thread complaining about how overpowered he is. Despite it never mattering, never affecting anything. When was the last time The Flash was actually important to a major story arc? Flashpoint, which was Barry being a screw up?

It's like folks just read a bunch of Battle Forums posts about Flash's theoretical overpoweredness and construed that to meaning the character sucks and should be changed and nerfed so that other characters can look better. Despite all of those characters always looking better everytime they're around Flash unless it's Flash's own comic. Probably don't even want him to have that, I'm sure.

[NaVi]

Depends. If the point of the story is to show The Flash being powerful, his punches will harm Superman. If the point of the story is to show Superman being powerful, then Flash's punches wouldn't phase Superman at all.

And the thing is, whenever there's a team up like in the Justice League, The Flash is very, very, very rarely depicted as the one who saves the day in any situation. He's always relegated to crowd control and jobs out to any threat. Which kind of shows how silly this thread is. Flash is just fast enough to run face first into Batman's robot goop or Catwoman's kick or whatever villain du jour shows up to incapacitate him while Superman or Batman or Wonder Woman actually save the day. The Flashes are so fast and powerful that every single thing they did in Death Metal was a useless waste because they played into evil Joker Batman's never ending backup plans. But Wonder Woman and Superman and Batman all made giant impacts and big differences all throughout Metal and Death Metal.

So, while everyone is saying The Flash is too fast, no one's saying Superman is too strong, Batman is too smart, Wonder Woman is too important, even though all of those traits far, far, far outshine whichever Flash shows up in every situation where the heroes are compared to each other. Jesus, I can't even remember the last major JL arc where The Flash was the central hero of the story. Yet we have an entire thread complaining about how overpowered he is. Despite it never mattering, never affecting anything. When was the last time The Flash was actually important to a major story arc? Flashpoint, which was Barry being a screw up?

It's like folks just read a bunch of Battle Forums posts about Flash's theoretical overpoweredness and construed that to meaning the character sucks and should be changed and nerfed so that other characters can look better. Despite all of those characters always looking better everytime they're around Flash unless it's Flash's own comic. Probably don't even want him to have that, I'm sure.

that nobody says that Superman is the strongest, seriously, if there is a character that is destroyed by the public, that is Superman. if the power of Flash matters so little, then I don't see the problem of making it weaker. Flash laughed in Superman's face, in the Superman comics. in the JL Flash movie save everyone. Not long ago it was shown that the speed of Flash is so great that characters like WW cannot even perceive it, the only one who could do it was Superman, but he had to use all his power, to quickly run out of strength, in case it was not clear , Flash defeated Superman without trying, he didn't even realize that Superman was there

[Captain Nostalgia]

It use to bother me that the Flash had become too fast and that the speed force came off as vague and nebulous (almost magical) instead of the scientific world that I wanted Barry Allen or Wally to be grounded in.

However in truth the idea of super speed is so far fetched from reality and physics it doesn't bother me anymore.

Scientifically if the Flash was running that fast and he hit a pebble or even a fly, it would probably kill him like a bullet to the skull, so I just enjoy the Flash for what it is....pure fantasy.

[Dred]

that nobody says that Superman is the strongest, seriously, if there is a character that is destroyed by the public, that is Superman. if the power of Flash matters so little, then I don't see the problem of making it weaker. Flash laughed in Superman's face, in the Superman comics. in the JL Flash movie save everyone. Not long ago it was shown that the speed of Flash is so great that characters like WW cannot even perceive it, the only one who could do it was Superman, but he had to use all his power, to quickly run out of strength, in case it was not clear , Flash defeated Superman without trying, he didn't even realize that Superman was there

For one, we're talking about DC Comics.

If the power of The Flash doesn't matter, let them tell The Flash stories in The Flash without having to artificially meter the character based on how he compares to other characters not in his comic.

I do not know what you are referencing in that last statement.

[Robanker]

Depends. If the point of the story is to show The Flash being powerful, his punches will harm Superman. If the point of the story is to show Superman being powerful, then Flash's punches wouldn't phase Superman at all.

And the thing is, whenever there's a team up like in the Justice League, The Flash is very, very, very rarely depicted as the one who saves the day in any situation. He's always relegated to crowd control and jobs out to any threat. Which kind of shows how silly this thread is. Flash is just fast enough to run face first into Batman's robot goop or Catwoman's kick or whatever villain du jour shows up to incapacitate him while Superman or Batman or Wonder Woman actually save the day. The Flashes are so fast and powerful that every single thing they did in Death Metal was a useless waste because they played into evil Joker Batman's never ending backup plans. But Wonder Woman and Superman and Batman all made giant impacts and big differences all throughout Metal and Death Metal.

So, while everyone is saying The Flash is too fast, no one's saying Superman is too strong, Batman is too smart, Wonder Woman is too important, even though all of those traits far, far, far outshine whichever Flash shows up in every situation where the heroes are compared to each other. Jesus, I can't even remember the last major JL arc where The Flash was the central hero of the story. Yet we have an entire thread complaining about how overpowered he is. Despite it never mattering, never affecting anything. When was the last time The Flash was actually important to a major story arc? Flashpoint, which was Barry being a screw up?

It's like folks just read a bunch of Battle Forums posts about Flash's theoretical overpoweredness and construed that to meaning the character sucks and should be changed and nerfed so that other characters can look better. Despite all of those characters always looking better everytime they're around Flash unless it's Flash's own comic. Probably don't even want him to have that, I'm sure.

When it comes up saving civilians, nobody can match the Flash at the top of his game. It's not flashy, but crowd control IS heroic and a good use of him. Saving the day, above all else, is about saving lives.

[Dred]

When it comes up saving civilians, nobody can match the Flash at the top of his game. It's not flashy, but crowd control IS heroic and a good use of him. Saving the day, above all else, is about saving lives.

It's narratively irrelevant, though. If the Flash wasn't there not doing it it wouldn't affect the story. Or they just say Green Lantern does the same thing with a bubble.