Barbatos (Iron Blooded Orphans) vs Wing Gundam (Gundam Wing)

[Cleric of Hell’s Brigade]

How does the Barbatos stack up against Heero’s first Gundam?


Bonus Scenario: Barbatos takes on each of the Gundam Wing Gundam one on one. Who beats it and who does it beat?

[Cody]

How does the Barbatos stack up against Heero’s first Gundam?


Bonus Scenario: Barbatos takes on each of the Gundam Wing Gundam one on one. Who beats it and who does it beat?

Idk much about the recent stuff, haven't kept up to date with the franchise since 00 Gundam)but Gundanium was almost like Vibrainium in terms of durability, some Gundams just tanked entire volleys of energy shots while the pilot laughed, took slashes from beam swords, while later models took explosions big enough to see from space and be relatively fine(wing gundam itself was mostly still intact even after Heero activated it's self-destruct system)they are also stupid light and fast, to the point it can be highly lethal for a normal person to pilot the machine just from the G-Forces.

Wing Gundam specifically has the powerful Buster Rifle, which has the power to destroy half a colony(entire colony with the twin buster rife).

Anything to suggest this Barbatos can deal with that?

[BitVyper]

Regarding the self destruct, I wouldn't call that one a durability feat. When they actually describe the self detonation, it sounds like it was designed to take out the unique technologies, not obliterate the whole structure.

Not that it matters much with all the other feats they have for tanking stuff.

[Captain Morgan]

Iron Blooded mobile suite also seem plenty durable, but they are also lacking in fire power and mobility compared to Wing. I think in iron blood they are supposed to be using the same Gundam frames but with worse tech supporting them.

[Melchior]

Well, the big thing is that the nanolaminate armor on the IBO mobile suits is incredibly beam resistant. That can be a serious issue. There is also the question of which version of Barbatos, since it does get a lot of incremental upgrades through the series.

Sadly, the only real comparison we have comes from the Gundam Build Divers Battlogue episode, which was Barbatos Lupus Rex vs. Strike Freedom. So it is somewhat questionable how accurate it is. The Strike Freedom did have to target the joints and armor gaps on Barbatos in order to actually deal beam damage to the Barbatos. Or literally slam the beam weapon into the armor before firing.

Taking all of that into account....

If we go episode one vs. episode one, I tentatively give it to Wing Gundam since it can play at range much easier than Barbatos can at that point. Close up is iffy, but the width of the Buster Rifle's beam should let the Wing Gundam hit anything exposed on Barbatos, which then leads into armor coming off and vital components being exposed.

If we go about mid-series for both, I would place it as a draw. Barbatos has a bit more of a range game, and is actually setup properly at that point. The Buster Rifle is either too slow with a big blast to tag Barbatos, or not covering enough area to realistically hit something vulnerable instead of armor on the Barbatos. Close-range is what Barbatos is built for, so any conflict there will start shifting things in favor of Barbatos. On the other hand, in most settings the Wing Gundam should be able to withdraw faster than Barbatos can pursue, so.... I just see that sort of fight ending with them circling each other at extreme range with both out of ammo, and with Wing just keeping its distance from Barbatos.

End-of-series... Barbatos Lupus Rex should have the agility and the maneuverability to get the Wing Gundam into close-combat unless the Wing Gundam does nothing but run. At that point, it starts tearing the Wing Gundam apart. Now, against what was actually being used at that point, the Wing Zero, which packs at least a bit more firepower and weapon systems than the normal Wing.... it comes down to whether or not the Wing Zero can tag Barbatos with a big blast from the Twin Buster Rifles (probably fired separately, rather than together). If it can, then that will probably damage enough stuff at the joints for close-combat to be an even fight. If Wing Zero flubs its three/six big shots, then Lupus Rex can probably tank the rest of Wing Zero's weapon systems long enough to close and start hitting. I give Barbatos Lupus Rex vs. Wing Zero.... 4/10, I think?

Of course, all of the above is assuming relatively empty space or a planetary surface and open skies. Things start tilting in Barbatos's favor if the fight happens in a more closed-off area where the Wing Gundam cannot run directly away.

As for the other Gundam Suits, probably mid-series....

Vs. Deathscythe - Horrible matchup for Deathscythe. I am not liking the beamscythe's likelihood of getting through Barbatos's armor, and it pretty much HAS to be at the optimal range for Barbatos in order to engage. Barbatos in most every scenario.

Vs. Heavyarms - On the one hand, Heavyarms actually has the physical munitions needed to actually damage the nanolaminate armor, as well plenty of firepower to spread around and a lot of armor. On the other hand, I am not positive it has large enough caliber weaponry to deal with the armor in general, and it lacks enough close-combat equipment to avoid Barbatos peeling the armor open. Probably the majority to Barbatos.

Vs. Sandrock - Less ranged firepower than the Heavyarms, though that chonky machine gun (if physical) at least discourages staying at range. It's supposed to be the strongest and most heavily armored of the Gundams, and the Heat Shotel's should work decently against the nanolaminate armor. The problem is that the Barbatos is a very agile opponent. I think the Sandrock does better than the Heavyarms, but still loses on average to Barbatos.

Vs. Shenlong - Oof. The Trident is of questionable use - I doubt the beam will do much good, but having a stick/spear gives it at least something other than a beamsaber to use in close combat. The Dragon Fang and flamethrowers also help there, and the flamethrower should work on the nanolaminate and anything underneath it. The Shenlong, at least when piloted by Wufei or the like, also has the physical mobility/agility needed to replicate martial arts. So actual martial arts skill becomes a factor in this fight. I would give that to Wufei over Mikazuki outside of a Gundam, with less of a bonus inside them. I think I would give the majority to Shenlong, but the fights will be fast and brutal and it will only be in marginally better condition than Barbatos.

Lupus Rex performs noticeably better, and that tail blade is nasty and really helps provide openings.

In regards to the IBO frames - the underlying skeleton and power system for all of the IBO Gundams is the same - the classic "Gundam Frame" with two Ahab reactors. From what we are told, the big thing with having two reactors is less 'more power' and more 'more available power quicker'. Two different frames can have the same model engines/actuators mounted on the arm, and would both provide the same amount of power when, say, punching something. The Gundam Frame's setup basically lets those same actuators go from 0-60 faster than a single-reactor frame, as well as having more actuators running at full power at one time. This greater twitch speed meant that the Alaya-Vijnana system, which allows direct neural control of the suit, could be used to full effect.

The above is why which Barbatos is a factor - the Tekkadan kept upgrading the underlying systems as they got access to better equipment, which not only meant better and more weapons, but better general performance as well.

[Cody]

Regarding the self destruct, I wouldn't call that one a durability feat. When they actually describe the self detonation, it sounds like it was designed to take out the unique technologies, not obliterate the whole structure.

Not that it matters much with all the other feats they have for tanking stuff.

Actually when it is used on less durable Gundams(like Strike from Seed) it completely blows it to bits, while in Gundam Wing the characters made note how the damage wasn't even that bad when they put Wing Gundam back together, chalking it up to Gundaniums resilience.

[Cody]

Well, the big thing is that the nanolaminate armor on the IBO mobile suits is incredibly beam resistant. That can be a serious issue. There is also the question of which version of Barbatos, since it does get a lot of incremental upgrades through the series.

Sadly, the only real comparison we have comes from the Gundam Build Divers Battlogue episode, which was Barbatos Lupus Rex vs. Strike Freedom. So it is somewhat questionable how accurate it is. The Strike Freedom did have to target the joints and armor gaps on Barbatos in order to actually deal beam damage to the Barbatos. Or literally slam the beam weapon into the armor before firing.

Taking all of that into account....

If we go episode one vs. episode one, I tentatively give it to Wing Gundam since it can play at range much easier than Barbatos can at that point. Close up is iffy, but the width of the Buster Rifle's beam should let the Wing Gundam hit anything exposed on Barbatos, which then leads into armor coming off and vital components being exposed.

If we go about mid-series for both, I would place it as a draw. Barbatos has a bit more of a range game, and is actually setup properly at that point. The Buster Rifle is either too slow with a big blast to tag Barbatos, or not covering enough area to realistically hit something vulnerable instead of armor on the Barbatos. Close-range is what Barbatos is built for, so any conflict there will start shifting things in favor of Barbatos. On the other hand, in most settings the Wing Gundam should be able to withdraw faster than Barbatos can pursue, so.... I just see that sort of fight ending with them circling each other at extreme range with both out of ammo, and with Wing just keeping its distance from Barbatos.

End-of-series... Barbatos Lupus Rex should have the agility and the maneuverability to get the Wing Gundam into close-combat unless the Wing Gundam does nothing but run. At that point, it starts tearing the Wing Gundam apart. Now, against what was actually being used at that point, the Wing Zero, which packs at least a bit more firepower and weapon systems than the normal Wing.... it comes down to whether or not the Wing Zero can tag Barbatos with a big blast from the Twin Buster Rifles (probably fired separately, rather than together). If it can, then that will probably damage enough stuff at the joints for close-combat to be an even fight. If Wing Zero flubs its three/six big shots, then Lupus Rex can probably tank the rest of Wing Zero's weapon systems long enough to close and start hitting. I give Barbatos Lupus Rex vs. Wing Zero.... 4/10, I think?

Of course, all of the above is assuming relatively empty space or a planetary surface and open skies. Things start tilting in Barbatos's favor if the fight happens in a more closed-off area where the Wing Gundam cannot run directly away.

As for the other Gundam Suits, probably mid-series....

Vs. Deathscythe - Horrible matchup for Deathscythe. I am not liking the beamscythe's likelihood of getting through Barbatos's armor, and it pretty much HAS to be at the optimal range for Barbatos in order to engage. Barbatos in most every scenario.

Vs. Heavyarms - On the one hand, Heavyarms actually has the physical munitions needed to actually damage the nanolaminate armor, as well plenty of firepower to spread around and a lot of armor. On the other hand, I am not positive it has large enough caliber weaponry to deal with the armor in general, and it lacks enough close-combat equipment to avoid Barbatos peeling the armor open. Probably the majority to Barbatos.

Vs. Sandrock - Less ranged firepower than the Heavyarms, though that chonky machine gun (if physical) at least discourages staying at range. It's supposed to be the strongest and most heavily armored of the Gundams, and the Heat Shotel's should work decently against the nanolaminate armor. The problem is that the Barbatos is a very agile opponent. I think the Sandrock does better than the Heavyarms, but still loses on average to Barbatos.

Vs. Shenlong - Oof. The Trident is of questionable use - I doubt the beam will do much good, but having a stick/spear gives it at least something other than a beamsaber to use in close combat. The Dragon Fang and flamethrowers also help there, and the flamethrower should work on the nanolaminate and anything underneath it. The Shenlong, at least when piloted by Wufei or the like, also has the physical mobility/agility needed to replicate martial arts. So actual martial arts skill becomes a factor in this fight. I would give that to Wufei over Mikazuki outside of a Gundam, with less of a bonus inside them. I think I would give the majority to Shenlong, but the fights will be fast and brutal and it will only be in marginally better condition than Barbatos.

Lupus Rex performs noticeably better, and that tail blade is nasty and really helps provide openings.

In regards to the IBO frames - the underlying skeleton and power system for all of the IBO Gundams is the same - the classic "Gundam Frame" with two Ahab reactors. From what we are told, the big thing with having two reactors is less 'more power' and more 'more available power quicker'. Two different frames can have the same model engines/actuators mounted on the arm, and would both provide the same amount of power when, say, punching something. The Gundam Frame's setup basically lets those same actuators go from 0-60 faster than a single-reactor frame, as well as having more actuators running at full power at one time. This greater twitch speed meant that the Alaya-Vijnana system, which allows direct neural control of the suit, could be used to full effect.

The above is why which Barbatos is a factor - the Tekkadan kept upgrading the underlying systems as they got access to better equipment, which not only meant better and more weapons, but better general performance as well.

Should mention that Gundanium is also highly resistant to beam weapons, and that even Wing Gundam has mounted gatling guns on it's head or shoulders to fire into those thst get to close, albeit not as effective against those with good armor.

Wing Zero however has combat precog via the zero system and it's gatling guns fire Gundanium rounds, meaning it's a threat even to those with comparable durability to it's own. Plus Heero has experience fighting mechs that specialize in close range, as shown with the fight against Epyon which specializes in close range combat and also has combat precog.

[Captain Morgan]

Should mention that Gundanium is also highly resistant to beam weapons, and that even Wing Gundam has mounted gatling guns on it's head or shoulders to fire into those thst get to close, albeit not as effective against those with good armor.

Wing Zero however has combat precog via the zero system and it's gatling guns fire Gundanium rounds, meaning it's a threat even to those with comparable durability to it's own. Plus Heero has experience fighting mechs that specialize in close range, as shown with the fight against Epyon which specializes in close range combat and also has combat precog.

Yeah but don't the Iron Blooded Gundams have similar stuff with Vanyana system or whatever it is called? That seems to be the norm for that series.

[Cody]

Yeah but don't the Iron Blooded Gundams have similar stuff with Vanyana system or whatever it is called? That seems to be the norm for that series.

Like I said, I don't know much about that series, stopped watching after 00(which was great, and seems to be the last time we have seen super mechs in the Gundam franchise since G and Turn A).

The zero system combat precog stuff however is more or less unique to Gundam Wing. There is stuff for Newtypes that can do similar(somewhat) but that's UC stuff. It's an AI system that filters images and battle strategies into the pilots head, with a high risk of insanity if the user isn't careful and isn't of a strong mind.

[Captain Morgan]

Like I said, I don't know much about that series, stopped watching after 00(which was great, and seems to be the last time we have seen super mechs in the Gundam franchise since G and Turn A).

The zero system combat precog stuff however is more or less unique to Gundam Wing. There is stuff for Newtypes that can do similar(somewhat) but that's UC stuff. It's an AI system that filters images and battle strategies into the pilots head, with a high risk of insanity if the user isn't careful and isn't of a strong mind.

The Iron Blooded kids literally undergo surgery to let them merge their nervous system with their Gundams. I don't remember if they call it precog per se but it seems to function pretty similar as far as reflexes and coordination goes.

[Cody]

[

The Iron Blooded kids literally undergo surgery to let them merge their nervous system with their Gundams. I don't remember if they call it precog per se but it seems to function pretty similar as far as reflexes and coordination goes.

They sound like coordinators from Seed, increased reflexes. Precog likely doesn't do the system enough justice, as it allows the pilot's mind to interface directly with the Gundam's combat computer. It used the pilot's thoughts and, combining them with it's combat data, presented the pilot with various alternate outcomes. Thus, depending on the pilot's mood, the Zero System could tell them how to achieve total victory defeat.

The ZERO system analyzes a given situation based on the massive amounts of data collected by its various sensors, then transmits multiple possible responses, as well as the results, directly into the pilot's brain. it shows the pilots the actions necessary in order to achieve victory. However, its predictions usually prioritize tactical victory above all else, ignoring any possibility of collateral damage, harm to the pilot, or the pilot's own emotions and morals. As such, controlling the system requires extremely high willpower, and weak-willed users risk being controlled by it. The system also includes advanced biofeedback equipment in the cockpit, allowing it to scan the pilot's brain activities and control the emission of neurotransmitters, alleviating the strain placed on the pilot by the mobile suit's maneuvers.

I suppose you can say it's like precog..that also makes the pilot semi psychic in that he can see ahead in the future with the system.

[Hiromi]

Actually when it is used on less durable Gundams(like Strike from Seed) it completely blows it to bits, while in Gundam Wing the characters made note how the damage wasn't even that bad when they put Wing Gundam back together, chalking it up to Gundaniums resilience.

different suits have different self destruct systems with different goals, even within Gundam Wing, I want to say it was the Sandrock I believe that had a self destruct scene as well that no one remembers, and it went off like a normal enormous bomb that destroyed all the other suits in the vicinity and consumed the entire suit so far as I remember(if memory serves they essentially had to completely rebuild it from scratch, it goes well with the theme that all the suits were built completely independent of each other though so it makes sense it would work differently)

Should mention that Gundanium is also highly resistant to beam weapons, and that even Wing Gundam has mounted gatling guns on it's head or shoulders to fire into those thst get to close, albeit not as effective against those with good armor.

Wing Zero however has combat precog via the zero system and it's gatling guns fire Gundanium rounds, meaning it's a threat even to those with comparable durability to it's own. Plus Heero has experience fighting mechs that specialize in close range, as shown with the fight against Epyon which specializes in close range combat and also has combat precog.

two Asctually things here, first beam weapons in Wing aren't given much background in how they work compared to other Gundam universes but it's fairly clear they don't behave anything like they do in those universes and thus aren't especially comparable, secondly the Zero/Epyon systems aren't true precog so much as they are probability machines if memory serves, basically able to plot all outcomes based on how the suits can maneuver/how fast they are and feed the most likely directly to the pilot. Functionally may appear to be the same but UC space magic psychic pilots have true precog and are capable of things a Zero System isn't, like hitting enemies they can't see at all or their suits can't even detect, using remote weaponry beyond what a suit should be able to communicate with, etc. In fact given the way minosky interference works in UC it's questionable if a Zero System would be functional at all in a UC setting were sensors are often severely limited in range. I also don't remember anything in the show or otherwise stating that the Wing Zero or any other suit shot bullets made of gundanium out of it's Vulcans or machine cannons, you got a source on that cause that seems extremely out of character inuniverse given how rare gundanium's supposed to be?

No idea how this applies to Iron Blooded Orphans as I haven't seen anything Gundam related since Unicorn but felt like chiming in Somewhat tempted to give the Hathaway's Flash movie a go but on the other hand if memory serves Hathaway was very much NOT a likeable character in the original story

[Cody]

different suits have different self destruct systems with different goals, even within Gundam Wing, I want to say it was the Sandrock I believe that had a self destruct scene as well that no one remembers, and it went off like a normal enormous bomb that destroyed all the other suits in the vicinity and consumed the entire suit so far as I remember(if memory serves they essentially had to completely rebuild it from scratch, it goes well with the theme that all the suits were built completely independent of each other though so it makes sense it would work differently)



two Asctually things here, first beam weapons in Wing aren't given much background in how they work compared to other Gundam universes but it's fairly clear they don't behave anything like they do in those universes and thus aren't especially comparable, secondly the Zero/Epyon systems aren't true precog so much as they are probability machines if memory serves, basically able to plot all outcomes based on how the suits can maneuver/how fast they are and feed the most likely directly to the pilot. Functionally may appear to be the same but UC space magic psychic pilots have true precog and are capable of things a Zero System isn't, like hitting enemies they can't see at all or their suits can't even detect, using remote weaponry beyond what a suit should be able to communicate with, etc. In fact given the way minosky interference works in UC it's questionable if a Zero System would be functional at all in a UC setting were sensors are often severely limited in range. I also don't remember anything in the show or otherwise stating that the Wing Zero or any other suit shot bullets made of gundanium out of it's Vulcans or machine cannons, you got a source on that cause that seems extremely out of character inuniverse given how rare gundanium's supposed to be?

No idea how this applies to Iron Blooded Orphans as I haven't seen anything Gundam related since Unicorn but felt like chiming in Somewhat tempted to give the Hathaway's Flash movie a go but on the other hand if memory serves Hathaway was very much NOT a likeable character in the original story

Beam weapons in Wing work like they do everywhere else, not sure where it was stated to be otherwise. Also, all self destruct systems are the same, they are based off the power source of the Gundams in question.

https://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/w/xxxg-00w0.htm

https://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/w/xxxg-01w.htm

Nothing on the bullets so I may have made a mistake on that bit by how Epyon tried to avoid them when they fought.

Can see the specs in the links there, uses official source material. Wing Zero is far more than a probability machine, its an AI that converses with Heero. In a lot of ways it's more like a biocomputer/psycomu system of sorts that works on non-newtypes.

You should try out 0-00Gundam. It's like Seed, UC, and Wing fused into one.

[BitVyper]

The Zero system is described as a probability machine, but the level of functionality we see from it is like Laplace's Demon tier probability calculation. Characters still adjusting to it have vivid hallucinations of the future. I can't recall if it has many/any feats for predicting things it couldn't possibly have known, but it seems to draw from a lot of information that it really gives no indication of having a way to gather. Explanation regardless, I think it's pretty much effectively magic. I'm not saying it's better or worse feated than Newtype abilities, just like, I don't think what the narrative says it is, is really defining any effective limitations.

[Hiromi]

Beam weapons in Wing work like they do everywhere else, not sure where it was stated to be otherwise. Also, all self destruct systems are the same, they are based off the power source of the Gundams in question.

Beam weapons in Wing by definition cannot work like UC beam weapons because Minosky fusion doesn't exist in Wing. They also don't have the same kind of results, the most primitive beam rifles in UC would still be perfectly effective against modern conventional armor 100 years later, because a stream of charged particles moving at near lightspeed packs a punch that material armor can't really block(hence why they moved towards Beam shields and I Fields more and more while making the suits harder to target and hit). I'm also speaking of the smaller beam rifles Leos and Taurus's would carry later in the series, not the larger beam cannons or buster rifles that seem to be in a separate category for what it's worth

Nothing on the bullets so I may have made a mistake on that bit by how Epyon tried to avoid them when they fought.

Well if memory serves that fight also has the Epyon firing vulcans at the Wing Zero despite not actually having them, Wing has a ton of amusing animation errors

Can see the specs in the links there, uses official source material. Wing Zero is far more than a probability machine, its an AI that converses with Heero. In a lot of ways it's more like a biocomputer/psycomu system of sorts that works on non-newtypes.

I have heard the Zero System compared to the Biocomputer before, and eh sure, F91 never really went into detail on exactly what the Hell it actually was and I never read the Crossbones series so I'll take that at face value. The original Psycommu is a bad comparison though as it's more an interface than an actual pilot enhancement system in that it allows a Newtype to transfer their psychic thoughts into mechanical signals and use remote weapons like Bits and Funnels.

You should try out 0-00Gundam. It's like Seed, UC, and Wing fused into one.

I saw some of it and remember liking it better than SEED and SEED Destiny