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  1. #1
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    Default Why Is Wonder Woman's Mommy Making Another Mommy's Husband ..Happy?

    Well...what will you say, when a young fan asks YOU that question?

    Somehow, I don't think Brian Azzarello, Matt Idelson and Cliff Chang really thought that through, when they made Wonder Woman's birth the result of Queen Hippolyta's sexual indiscretions with someone else's husband. Not sure they care, .. and no-ooo, I haven't moved past this.

    Deal with it. What will say? Me? Dunno...
    COMBINING THE BIGBADITUDE OF THANOS WITH CHEETAH'S FEROCITY, IS JANUS WONDER WOMAN'S GREATEST SUPERVILLAIN?...on WONDABUNGA!!! Look alive, Kangaliers!

  2. #2
    Incredible Member napolid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    Well...what will you say, when a young fan asks YOU that question?

    Somehow, I don't think Brian Azzarello, Matt Idelson and Cliff Chang really thought that through, when they made Wonder Woman's birth the result of Queen Hippolyta's sexual indiscretions with someone else's husband. Not sure they care, .. and no-ooo, I haven't moved past this.

    Deal with it. What will say? Me? Dunno...
    Wow how old are these young fans 5?
    Favorites: Batman, Superman, All-New Wolverine, Deathstroke, Detective Comics, Green Lanterns, Doom Patrol

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    Quote Originally Posted by napolid View Post
    Wow how old are these young fans 5?
    Well if you mean my daughter Gwen, she's 6.

  4. #4
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I don't see any reason why to think that he didn't think it through. He doesn't shy away that it was an adulterous liaison. That his conclusion was that this was a worthwhile origin to explore doesn't mean he didn't think it through. I'm sure he knew it would be a matter of great debate.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 05-05-2014 at 03:08 AM.

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    It is curious that Odin's own adulterous relationship with Gaea that saw the birth of Thor never seems to be a sticking point [though in the MCU they seem to have dropped that idea].

  6. #6
    Extraordinary Member Vanguard-01's Avatar
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    Mythology is RIFE with stories about normally intelligent women making unwise sexual decisions around the gods. Ditto for men around goddesses. The divine is VERY attractive and seductive. Even a woman as strong and smart as Hippolyta can have a lapse in judgement.

    Once again, I turn to my beloved game Scion to offer a simple explanation. In Scion, you have normal "Attributes" which reflect your raw talent at human endeavors. Attributes like Strength and Stamina reflect the power of your body. On the Social side of things? You have Charisma, Manipulation, and Appearance. Charisma is your natural charm and personal magnetism. People just LIKE you. You're the coolest thing ever. Manipulation is the ability to play on people's emotions and get them to feel what you want them to feel. A general giving a rallying speech to his weary soldiers is using Manipulation. A sexy seducer trying to convince you to go to bed with him is also using Manipulation. Appearance is how physically attractive you are and how skilled you are at using your looks to manipulate others. Your ability to "vamp," if you will.

    ......And that's just the mundane side of things. Scion is a game about wielding divine powers. Gods, Scions, and other creatures of Legend also gain "Epic Attributes," which enhance the power of the "mundane" Attributes to truly supernatural levels. No, a mere mortal with a lot of Charisma can't run for President and win based solely on his/her personality.....but a God with high EPIC Charisma can. Under normal circumstances, the most beautiful woman with the highest Appearance in the mortal world can't seduce a homosexual man into forgetting his preferences and having sex with her. A goddess with Epic Appearance, however, can.

    Zeus is shown in mythology to be a master manipulator. In the myths, he uses his personality to seduce married women (when he doesn't just rape them), to get Hera to stop being mad at him, and to intimidate the other gods into doing what he wants. He has VERY high Epic Social Attributes, in Scion's terms.

    Thus? Zeus has an overwhelming personality about him that can cloud the judgement of even a strong and intelligent woman like Hippolyta. This is confirmed in myths, and in Scion it would be easily represented by Zeus's character Attributes. He rolled a KILLER Epic Manipulation roll and got Hippolyta to temporarily abandon her good sense.

    Utterly normal men do this same thing to women every single day. Hippolyta being the awesome lady that she is, she would never succumb to those NORMAL men's manipulations. But against one of the greatest supernatural manipulators? Even the mighty Queen of the Amazons can have a moment of bad judgement.
    Though much is taken, much abides; and though
    We are not now that strength which in old days
    Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are,
    One equal temper of heroic hearts,
    Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
    To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

    --Lord Alfred Tennyson--

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    Which is basically what happened with Hippolyta and Hercules in the original Marston story.

    The essential difference between that tale and this is that with Hercules Hippolyta learned from her mistake and overcame that weakness, and then had Diana. Rather than Wonder Woman being the result of what Vangaurd accurately describes as a tragic lack in judgment.

  8. #8
    Extraordinary Member Vanguard-01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Which is basically what happened with Hippolyta and Hercules in the original Marston story.

    The essential difference between that tale and this is that with Hercules Hippolyta learned from her mistake and overcame that weakness, and then had Diana. Rather than Wonder Woman being the result of what Vangaurd accurately describes as a tragic lack in judgment.
    How tragic was it, in the long run?

    It gave the world one of it's greatest heroes, who is now trying to reform the Amazons and even the very concept of War. Hippolyta was punished for her lapse in judgment, sure. But only temporarily. She'll be released before long, and all the other Amazons are also free. So really, this isn't much of a tragedy. It ultimately did more good than harm, after all.

    And really, what's the difference? Hippolyta made a mistake in both stories and paid for it. Wonder Woman was still born and the world is better off thanks to that. The only real difference is the timing of Diana's birth, and that doesn't have much relevance to begin with.
    Though much is taken, much abides; and though
    We are not now that strength which in old days
    Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are,
    One equal temper of heroic hearts,
    Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
    To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

    --Lord Alfred Tennyson--

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanguard-01 View Post
    How tragic was it, in the long run?

    It gave the world one of it's greatest heroes, who is now trying to reform the Amazons and even the very concept of War. Hippolyta was punished for her lapse in judgment, sure. But only temporarily. She'll be released before long, and all the other Amazons are also free. So really, this isn't much of a tragedy. It ultimately did more good than harm, after all.

    And really, what's the difference? Hippolyta made a mistake in both stories and paid for it. Wonder Woman was still born and the world is better off thanks to that. The only real difference is the timing of Diana's birth, and that doesn't have much relevance to begin with.
    To the outcome of the story, no. To the underlying messages implicit rather than explicit in the story, yes, it does.

    For example, and lets go extreme here to make the point clear - you could rewrite the original Star Wars trilogy so that Luke kills Vader, then the Emperor. Or Luke kills Vader and then a blast from the Rebel Fleet destroys the throne room the Emperor is killed. The end result is still the same, but the underlying message of the story is radically altered.

    Marston's original premise was about empowering female readers by showing them that they didn't have to limit their thinking as to what they could achieve. Granted, his solution to the problem of having a baby was not based on anything possible in the real world, but it still reflects a paradigm shift in gender roles.

    By your own analysis, the current story uses a trope which is millennia old - a woman falls for the wrong guy because he is hot even though she should know better. Not terribly empowering. It also projects a philosophy which I find disagreeable, being that its okay to do the wrong thing if something right might come out of it.
    Last edited by brettc1; 05-05-2014 at 06:00 AM.

  10. #10
    Extraordinary Member Dr. Poison's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    To the outcome of the story, no. To the underlying messages implicit rather than explicit in the story, yes, it does.

    For example, and lets go extreme here to make the point clear - you could rewrite the original Star Wars trilogy so that Luke kills Vader, then the Emperor. Or Luke kills Vader and then a blast from the Rebel Fleet destroys the throne room the Emperor is killed. The end result is still the same, but the underlying message of the story is radically altered.

    Marston's original premise was about empowering female readers by showing them that they didn't have to limit their thinking as to what they could achieve. Granted, his solution to the problem of having a baby was not based on anything possible in the real world, but it still reflects a paradigm shift in gender roles.

    By your own analysis, the current story uses a trope which is millennia old - a woman falls for the wrong guy because he is hot even though she should know better. Not terribly empowering. It also projects a philosophy which I find disagreeable, being that its okay to do the wrong thing if something right might come out of it.

    Well said, brettc1.

    Sorry, Vanguard-01.

    This is the basis of most of my issues with Azzarello's run - the message it sends out. It's ok for a women to sleep with another woman's husband as long as the child of the affair does a great mount of good in the world. It basically says it's ok for women to seduce and murder men as long as they're doing it to keep their society going. It says it's ok to stab someone who is not a physical threat to one even if the person had been a physical threat to others previously. It says it's ok to put a man's testicles in a vice-grip if he make dirty jokes towards you. Azzarello is great at coming up with reasons for these types of behaviors but the reasons don't justify the actions to me. They're excuses and easy ways out at best. Wonder Woman's world is not sending the same message to me that it previously did pre-New 52.
    Last edited by Dr. Poison; 05-05-2014 at 06:07 AM.
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  11. #11
    Astonishing Member Nite-Wing's Avatar
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    Not really sure why this is a problem? -_-

  12. #12
    Extraordinary Member Vanguard-01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    To the outcome of the story, no. To the underlying messages implicit rather than explicit in the story, yes, it does.

    For example, and lets go extreme here to make the point clear - you could rewrite the original Star Wars trilogy so that Luke kills Vader, then the Emperor. Or Luke kills Vader and then a blast from the Rebel Fleet destroys the throne room the Emperor is killed. The end result is still the same, but the underlying message of the story is radically altered.
    As you say, that's pretty extreme. In those examples, the message of the story changes to "Luke and/or Vader weren't really important to the story." Which really would suck for everyone who watched the trilogy.

    Hippolyta making a mistake due to supernatural influence doesn't change anyone's importance in the story.

    By your own analysis, the current story uses a trope which is millennia old - a woman falls for the wrong guy because he is hot even though she should know better. Not terribly empowering. It also projects a philosophy which I find disagreeable, being that its okay to do the wrong thing if something right might come out of it.
    I think you're missing the point. In THIS case, it's not Hippolyta falling for Zeus "just because he's hot." Epic Manipulation makes you do things and makes you think that you actually WANT to do them. That they were your ideas. Epic Manipulation is the insidious Social Attribute. ALL the Trickster Gods have maximum Epic Manipulation pretty much by default. So, Hippolyta falling for Zeus while thinking it was her own (bad) choice is CLASSIC Epic Manipulation work. The key word is "thinking." In reality, Epic Manipulation is mind control that makes you think it's NOT mind control.

    In the Scion forum, we have had many debates about the morality of wielding divine powers in given circumstances. Since sex is such a big deal in mythology, this is a particularly popular topic. We Scion fans disagree on the morality of using OTHER powers in various ways, but we reached an almost universal consensus that using Epic Manipulation to get sex is unquestionably rape. Charisma and Appearance? Not so much. But Manipulation? Definitely. If you EVER use Epic Manipulation to get someone to sleep with you, congratulations! You're a rapist!

    Thus? You don't really have Hippolyta falling for Zeus "because he's hot." MAYBE he used his Epic Appearance to seduce her. The fact that Hippolyta remembers the sex as being her choice COULD mean that it really was her choice.......or it could mean that Epic Manipulation was used to just make her THINK it was her choice. In other words? Hippolyta may very well have been raped without even realizing it.

    I neglected to mention that the Epic Attributes in Scion have specific powers, called "Knacks," which reflect a refinement of the raw power of the Epic Attributes. Epic Manipulation Knacks are where you go to find the straight-up mind control powers. With the right Epic Manipulation Knacks, I could walk up to you, look you in the eye, and tell you to go home and kill your wife and kids and then bathe in their blood, and you'd do it. Worse? Epic Manipulation also has Knacks that can mess with your memory. I could make you do this terrible thing and leave you convinced that IT WAS YOUR IDEA TO DO IT. That you wanted to do it.

    Scary, huh? So using Epic Manipulation to trick Hippolyta into sex and then altering her memory to make her THINK that it was consensual suddenly isn't THAT different from Heracles raping Hippolyta while she was drugged as Marston said.

    Based on what I've seen, I'm inclined to believe that Zeus used Epic Manipulation, not Epic Appearance or Epic Charisma. Perhaps he used a combination of the three, but unless Azz specifically spells it out that Hippolyta wasn't influenced in any way when she had sex with Zeus, then my headcanon leans toward subtle mind control and memory tampering.
    Though much is taken, much abides; and though
    We are not now that strength which in old days
    Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are,
    One equal temper of heroic hearts,
    Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
    To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

    --Lord Alfred Tennyson--

  13. #13
    Incredible Member Step's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanguard-01 View Post
    As you say, that's pretty extreme. In those examples, the message of the story changes to "Luke and/or Vader weren't really important to the story." Which really would suck for everyone who watched the trilogy.

    Hippolyta making a mistake due to supernatural influence doesn't change anyone's importance in the story.



    I think you're missing the point. In THIS case, it's not Hippolyta falling for Zeus "just because he's hot." Epic Manipulation makes you do things and makes you think that you actually WANT to do them. That they were your ideas. Epic Manipulation is the insidious Social Attribute. ALL the Trickster Gods have maximum Epic Manipulation pretty much by default. So, Hippolyta falling for Zeus while thinking it was her own (bad) choice is CLASSIC Epic Manipulation work. The key word is "thinking." In reality, Epic Manipulation is mind control that makes you think it's NOT mind control.

    In the Scion forum, we have had many debates about the morality of wielding divine powers in given circumstances. Since sex is such a big deal in mythology, this is a particularly popular topic. We Scion fans disagree on the morality of using OTHER powers in various ways, but we reached an almost universal consensus that using Epic Manipulation to get sex is unquestionably rape. Charisma and Appearance? Not so much. But Manipulation? Definitely. If you EVER use Epic Manipulation to get someone to sleep with you, congratulations! You're a rapist!

    Thus? You don't really have Hippolyta falling for Zeus "because he's hot." MAYBE he used his Epic Appearance to seduce her. The fact that Hippolyta remembers the sex as being her choice COULD mean that it really was her choice.......or it could mean that Epic Manipulation was used to just make her THINK it was her choice. In other words? Hippolyta may very well have been raped without even realizing it.

    I neglected to mention that the Epic Attributes in Scion have specific powers, called "Knacks," which reflect a refinement of the raw power of the Epic Attributes. Epic Manipulation Knacks are where you go to find the straight-up mind control powers. With the right Epic Manipulation Knacks, I could walk up to you, look you in the eye, and tell you to go home and kill your wife and kids and then bathe in their blood, and you'd do it. Worse? Epic Manipulation also has Knacks that can mess with your memory. I could make you do this terrible thing and leave you convinced that IT WAS YOUR IDEA TO DO IT. That you wanted to do it.

    Scary, huh? So using Epic Manipulation to trick Hippolyta into sex and then altering her memory to make her THINK that it was consensual suddenly isn't THAT different from Heracles raping Hippolyta while she was drugged as Marston said.

    Based on what I've seen, I'm inclined to believe that Zeus used Epic Manipulation, not Epic Appearance or Epic Charisma. Perhaps he used a combination of the three, but unless Azz specifically spells it out that Hippolyta wasn't influenced in any way when she had sex with Zeus, then my headcanon leans toward subtle mind control and memory tampering.
    Well, if that was really Azz's intention, that Zeus raped her, than he did an awful job showing it, because as someone who's never played Scion in his life it all looked consensual to me.

    But seeing as Scion has nothing to do with Wonder Woman and the concept of Epic Attributes were not introduced in the entirety of Wonder Woman's run, and it was never even hinted at that Zeus raped her, I'm just going to think that he seduced her and she fell for him and I think the majority of readers are going to as well, as nobody ever even mentioned rape when it came to those Hippolyta and Zeus.

    Anyway, my 10 year old sister reads this story and she never asked me once lol, she was more concerned that she saw the "b-word" in the story, but honestly it's a pretty adult book what with the cannibalism and the blood and the torture, I'm not even sure why I let my baby sister read it lol.
    Last edited by Step; 05-05-2014 at 07:07 AM.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Dyer View Post
    Well...what will you say, when a young fan asks YOU that question?

    Somehow, I don't think Brian Azzarello, Matt Idelson and Cliff Chang really thought that through, when they made Wonder Woman's birth the result of Queen Hippolyta's sexual indiscretions with someone else's husband. Not sure they care, .. and no-ooo, I haven't moved past this.

    Deal with it. What will say? Me? Dunno...
    While it's not good that Hippolyta sleeps with Zeus I'd foremost explain that Zeus was being unfaithful to his wife Hera.

    Also that Hera seems to be more angry with everyone he sleeps with, instead of him. Which isn't right. And that she seems unhappy since she doesn't seem to love him any longer, but feel she must because of some traditional aspects of her being a queen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Step View Post
    Well, if that was really Azz's intention, that Zeus raped her, than he did an awful job showing it, because as someone who's never played Scion in his life it all looked consensual to me.

    But seeing as Scion has nothing to do with Wonder Woman and the concept of Epic Attributes were not introduced in the entirety of Wonder Woman's run, and it was never even hinted at that Zeus raped her, I'm just going to think that he seduced her and she fell for him and I think the majority of readers are going to as well, as nobody ever even mentioned rape when it came to those Hippolyta and Zeus.

    Anyway, my 10 year old sister reads this story and she never asked me once lol, she was more concerned that she saw the "b-word" in the story, but honestly it's a pretty adult book what with the cannibalism and the blood and the torture, I'm not even sure why I let my baby sister read it lol.
    I'd say Hippolyta's talk with Diana makes it quite clear that her and Zeus fell for each other. That their fights became their dance and then passion bloomed. I really don't get why some says it's rape or something, why would it be?
    Last edited by borntohula; 05-05-2014 at 09:29 AM.

  15. #15
    Extraordinary Member Vanguard-01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Poison View Post
    This is the basis of most of my issues with Azzarello's run - the message it sends out. It's ok for a women to sleep with another woman's husband as long as the child of the affair does a great mount of good in the world.
    The story does NOT say that it's "okay." If it did, Hippolyta would've gotten away scot free. She didn't. Hera found out and punished Hippolyta for what she did. The fact that Hippolyta made no effort to defend or justify what she did and actually begged Hera's forgiveness proves that SHE didn't think what she did was "okay."

    It basically says it's ok for women to seduce and murder men as long as they're doing it to keep their society going.
    It says nothing of the sort. No effort was made to make the raids seem good or acceptable. They were bad things. The minute Diana gained the authority to do something about the raids, what did she do? STOPPED THEM. That's what. The story clearly tells us that these things are bad and that they should be stopped.

    The Amazons RATIONALIZED their crimes by saying it's okay because they're keeping their society going. But Azz made no effort at all to say that they were right.

    It says it's ok to stab someone who is not a physical threat to one even if the person had been a physical threat to others previously.
    First off how do you KNOW Strife is no physical threat? Like most tricksters, she avoids combat like the plague. We have no idea if she can hurt Diana or not. Also? Notice how Strife herself wasn't even THAT put off by the injury? It was healed in like two seconds. It's easy enough to say that Diana KNEW she was inflicting no permanent harm.

    Second? No the story doesn't say it's okay to stab random people. It says that it's okay to stop a murderous psychopath who had just THREATENED A BABY.

    Wonder Woman's world is not sending the same message to me that it previously did pre-New 52.
    Let's see:

    1.) Defend the weak
    2.) Make friends out of foes
    3.) Show compassion and mercy whenever possible
    4.) Encourage people to better themselves
    5.) Forgive those who wrong her
    6.) Seek to end injustice when she finds it.

    Sounds like her message is still alive and well to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Step View Post
    But seeing as Scion has nothing to do with Wonder Woman and the concept of Epic Attributes were not introduced in the entirety of Wonder Woman's run, and it was never even hinted at that Zeus raped her, I'm just going to think that he seduced her and she fell for him and I think the majority of readers are going to as well, as nobody ever even mentioned rape when it came to those Hippolyta and Zeus.
    The Epic Attributes exist in order to illustrate the things that the gods do in mythology and explain them. Zeus has had Hera pissed off at him and then disarmed her with a smile and witty comment. That's Epic Charisma. YOU are not charming enough to disarm people that easily because you don't have Epic Charisma. If Zeus can do stuff like that in the myths? Stands to reason he can do that in a comic book.

    Nobody mentioned rape because with the exception of Zeus, no one knew it WAS rape. And it LOOKED consensual to you because a person under the influence of Epic Socials DOESN'T appear any different. If Aphrodite walks into a bar and works the Epic Social mojo to get some guy to sleep with her? That won't look like rape either. Until the guy wakes up the next morning and realizes he just cheated on his beloved wife and can't understand WHY he would do something like that.

    I'm not saying the Epic Attributes are EXACTLY what's happening in this book. But there ARE similarities.

    I would also like to point out that there may be SOME evidence that Azzarello HAS played Scion before, or at least that he's aware of the game. His portrayal of Eros's "bow" as a pair of golden handguns, for example. In Scion there are five sample characters. The sample Greek Scion is a rich pretty boy named Donnie Rhodes. He ALSO has a pair of magic handguns that make people fall in love. The only real difference is that only ONE of Donnie's guns are gold. The other one's black and it actually makes people hate the next person they see.

    Not saying it's a certainty. But that's an awfully interesting parallel. Oh, did I mention that Donnie is the son of Eros' mother? Aphrodite?
    Though much is taken, much abides; and though
    We are not now that strength which in old days
    Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are,
    One equal temper of heroic hearts,
    Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
    To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

    --Lord Alfred Tennyson--

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