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  1. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lorendiac View Post
    When I talked about receiving exceptional powers as a reward, I was thinking more of some of the comic book renditions of that famous contest -- those being the stories where Diana actually "beat her competitors." I wasn't thinking of Aresia from the DCAU at all. I do see your point, though -- Aresia was far stronger than Batman, and presumably any other Amazons would likewise have been able to beat him hands-down in a weightlifting contest or any other test of strength. Probably beat him by a huge margin, in fact. (In the comic books, I believe it's also been traditional to suggest that the "average Amazon" is far, far stronger than the average "mortal man.")

    On the other hand, Aresia couldn't fly, could she? Thinking back on it, I'm not positive if the DCAU Diana could or couldn't already do that trick before she stole those relics from the temple -- I think I was assuming one of those relics was what made her airborne, but yes, I could be wrong. I vaguely recall Aresia and Diana scuffling, but I'm not sure how much evidence there is for the two of them being "just about equal" in physical strength.
    If you rewatch the episode, watch the concluding fight. They were trading blows equally with each other, so presumably they had strength levels very close to one another. Not sure about Aresia being able to fly.

    I know in a later episode, Ares or someone activated something on Wonder Womans costume so that all her items were now functional. I think what this did was activate her lasso so that she could now use it as a lasso of truth rather than an indestructible piece of rope. My memory's a bit fuzzy on this, but I think this is essentially what happened in the animated Justice League

  2. #167
    Senior Member BlackFeath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wagthedog View Post
    If you rewatch the episode, watch the concluding fight. They were trading blows equally with each other, so presumably they had strength levels very close to one another. Not sure about Aresia being able to fly.

    I know in a later episode, Ares or someone activated something on Wonder Womans costume so that all her items were now functional. I think what this did was activate her lasso so that she could now use it as a lasso of truth rather than an indestructible piece of rope. My memory's a bit fuzzy on this, but I think this is essentially what happened in the animated Justice League
    If I am not wrong it was Hippolyta who activated the lasso. Anyway yes, except maybe for the power of flight (but maybe she was just able to fly while her sisters no and that was independent from the costume, since she was also able to do that even without wearing it. After all she was different from her sisters, being born by clay thanks to Hippolyta and Hades), the other amazons (Aresia) are showed to have powers too, and Aresia seemed as strong as Diana, so I don't think the costume gives who wears it any powers.
    "Sometimes, it's best not to be who we are...but who we aspire to be". (Wonder Woman, Wonder Woman #23)

  3. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackFeath View Post
    If I am not wrong it was Hippolyta who activated the lasso. Anyway yes, except maybe for the power of flight (but maybe she was just able to fly while her sisters no and that was independent from the costume, since she was also able to do that even without wearing it. After all she was different from her sisters, being born by clay thanks to Hippolyta and Hades), the other amazons (Aresia) are showed to have powers too, and Aresia seemed as strong as Diana, so I don't think the costume gives who wears it any powers.
    In the series, it is never mentioned, but Louise Simonson wrote a novelization based on the series called The Gauntlet



    In it, while Diana is being examined by DeSaad on Apocalypse, it is revealed the Amazonian armour increases its wearer's strength and stamina tenfold.

  4. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    And if you are not prepared to acknowledge what the writer has put in words, literally in black and white, on the page regarding Ares combat skills surpassing the Amazons, then further discussion is futile.
    I'm not only prepared to acknowledge it; I'm prepared to show it to you:

    War.JPG

    Ares says there are some things only a god can teach. I absolutely acknowledge that he says this, and that it seems like reasonably credible claim. But he does not say that he's the only god that can teach these things, and he doesn't say whether or not there are also some things that an Amazon can teach that a god, or at least he, cannot. Logically, "X can teach something Y cannot" does not entail ""x can teach everything Y can." As an ilustration of this logical principle, consider this: Muhammed Ali may have been a better fighter--and potentially a better boxing instructor--than my local karate instructor, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Muhammed Ali could teach karate.

    Does it seem likely that the Amazons know something about war that the god of war does not? No, it doesn't--but the text doesn't say, one way or another. Does it seem likely that the Amazons can teach something Ares cannot? Reasonably likely, yes. Though he has a lot to teach, Ares is not depicted as a very effective teacher. Just imagine this on your next performance evaluation: "Brettc1 is amazingly knowledgeable about science, and he knows some things about science that none of our other science teachers know. He also taught an excellent lesson about not harming one's lab partners (though this lesson was accidental, as he was attempting to teach the opposite). However, two incidents in a thirteen-session course raise some concerns about his class management skills: he almost killed a student, and he tried to induce that student to murder." One has to ask: If Ares had been Diana's only teacher, would she have lived to the age of 12?

    Yes. Welcome to Azzarello's Wonder Woman.
    Does Azzarello's Wonder Woman portray the power inherited from Zeus as a "gift"? The First Born sees it that way, but he's not the most reliable character, right? Lennox does call it Zeus's power, but he and Milan see it as being as likely a curse as a gift. Wonder Woman, too, seems to see it as a curse to be kept under control, whereas she gives her mother and sisters credit for the strength (of character) and skills that she actually uses. But then, she has only recently discovered the origins of her god-like power, so it's understandable if she hasn't yet reflected that this power comes from deeper "genetic" wells than just Zeus, though it may have been poisoned by Zeus (and by Kronus before him).

    To Vanguard--sure, I know Ouranos is a more authentic rendering of the name in our alphabet; but if one is going to go for the adolescent joke, why let technicalities get in the way? Besides, "bastardization" is never out of place in Greek mythology.
    Last edited by Silvanus; 05-10-2014 at 05:57 AM.

  5. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silvanus View Post
    I'm not only prepared to acknowledge it; I'm prepared to show it to you:

    War.JPG

    Ares says there are some things only a god can teach. I absolutely acknowledge that he says this, and that it seems like reasonably credible claim. But he does not say that he's the only god that can teach these things, and he doesn't say whether or not there are also some things that an Amazon can teach that a god, or at least he, cannot. Logically, "X can teach something Y cannot" does not entail ""x can teach everything Y can." As an ilustration of this logical principle, consider this: Muhammed Ali may have been a better fighter--and potentially a better boxing instructor--than my local karate instructor, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Muhammed Ali could teach karate.

    Does it seem likely that the Amazons know something about war that the god of war does not? No, it doesn't--but the text doesn't say, one way or another. Does it seem likely that the Amazons can teach something Ares cannot? Reasonably likely, yes. Though he has a lot to teach, Ares is not depicted as a very effective teacher. Just imagine this on your next performance evaluation: "Brettc1 is amazingly knowledgeable about science, and he knows some things about science that none of our other science teachers know. He also taught an excellent lesson about not harming one's lab partners (though this lesson was accidental, as he was attempting to teach the opposite). However, two incidents in a thirteen-session course raise some concerns about his class management skills: he almost killed a student, and he tried to induce that student to murder." One has to ask: If Ares had been Diana's only teacher, would she have lived to the age of 12?
    The Muhammad Ali comparison is just silly, since you are comparing a who is good at one form of combat to an immortal with the time and ability to master all forms of combat. Neither is the science comparison accurate, since science is about inquiry and combat is about doing violence. Considering the fact that he did not in fact kill her in the first match with real swords its also a pretty weak argument.

    I think Ares comment that you posted pretty plainly show that he knows everything the Amazons have mastered and more besides, but if you prefer to interpret it while standing on your head and squinting out of the corner of one eye while juggling baby geese that's up to you.



    Does Azzarello's Wonder Woman portray the power inherited from Zeus as a "gift"? The First Born sees it that way, but he's not the most reliable character, right? Lennox does call it Zeus's power, but he and Milan see it as being as likely a curse as a gift. Wonder Woman, too, seems to see it as a curse to be kept under control, whereas she gives her mother and sisters credit for the strength (of character) and skills that she actually uses. But then, she has only recently discovered the origins of her god-like power, so it's understandable if she hasn't yet reflected that this power comes from deeper "genetic" wells than just Zeus, though it may have been poisoned by Zeus (and by Kronus before him). [
    None of the other Amazons have been shown to be able to knock down trees with their fists or lift helicarriers. So she cant do what she can do in her own book and against Kryptonian supervillains because of her mothers genetic inheritance.
    Last edited by brettc1; 05-10-2014 at 06:06 AM.

  6. #171
    Senior Member BlackFeath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    The Muhammad Ali comparison is just silly, since you are comparing a who is good at one form of combat to an immortal with the time and ability to master all forms of combat. Neither is the science comparison accurate, since science is about inquiry and combat is about doing violence. Considering the fact that he did not in fact kill her in the first match with real swords its also a pretty weak argument.

    I think Ares comment that you posted pretty plainly show that he knows everything the Amazons have mastered and more besides, but if you prefer to interpret it while standing on your head and squinting out of the corner of one eye while juggling baby geese that's up to you.





    None of the other Amazons have been shown to be able to knock down trees with their fists or lift helicarriers. So she cant do what she can do in her own book and against Kryptonian supervillains because of her mothers genetic inheritance.
    Exoristos, amazon:



    She stopped that giant animal with a headbutt...do you think she would have any problems knocking down trees with her fists? xD (Actually if I am not wrong she knocked down one in the past, but I couldn’t find the image. And she was also able to break chains).
    Maybe they can't lift aircrafts, but still amazons are stronger than humans, so I think Diana is as strong as she is also for her mother's genetic inheritance.
    "Sometimes, it's best not to be who we are...but who we aspire to be". (Wonder Woman, Wonder Woman #23)

  7. #172
    Extraordinary Member Dr. Poison's Avatar
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    I think all of the Amazons have a certain level of super-strength but i don't think all of them are on Wonder Woman or Superman's level. If Wonder Woman and Superman are both 9s on a scale of 1 to 10(because there are some beings in the DCU that are stronger than them such as Mongul & Darkseid) then I'd place the average Amazon at a 6.
    Currently Reading:Aquaman, Doomsday Clock, Freedom Fighters, Hawkman, Justice League, Justice League Dark, Shazam, Wonder Twins, Wonder Woman, & Young Justice.

  8. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1
    The Muhammad Ali comparison is just silly, since you are comparing a who is good at one form of combat to an immortal with the time and ability to master all forms of combat. Neither is the science comparison accurate, since science is about inquiry and combat is about doing violence. Considering the fact that he did not in fact kill her in the first match with real swords its also a pretty weak argument.
    Comparisons that aren't a little silly are rarely any fun. The differences you mention are obvious, but they have no bearing on the two simple points I was illustrating:

    1. "There is more...that only a god can teach" literally means that there is something a god can teach that Amazons can't. Logically, it doesn't follow from Ares' words that he can teach everything the Amazons can. It's a fair assumption that he as god of war knows everything they know about war, but he doesn't actually say it--if we're just talking about what's "in black and white," it's only that there are "warrior ways that only a god can teach."

    2. Being able to teach something involves (a.) knowing it and (b.) being able to communicate it to students without destroying them. So even if we assume that Ares knows everything about war that the Amazons know, that doesn't necessarily mean he could have taught it all to Diana.

    If you disagree with either of those logical points, then it seems to me that you're the one standing on his head, etc. But hey, maybe it's a matter of perspective; we're on different hemispheres, after all, so maybe your down is my up. (Just kidding--no need to explain any fallacies of geography or physics there!)

    As for inheritance, sure, she seems to have inherited superpowers from Zeus--and thus from his male and female ancestors. So what? Did it bother you in prior continuities that she received her power mostly from goddesses (and one or two gods, depending on the continuity) who inherited it from Zeus and/or Kronus?
    Last edited by Silvanus; 05-12-2014 at 02:34 PM.

  9. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    In the series, it is never mentioned, but Louise Simonson wrote a novelization based on the series called The Gauntlet



    In it, while Diana is being examined by DeSaad on Apocalypse, it is revealed the Amazonian armour increases its wearer's strength and stamina tenfold.
    She wrote 2 or 3 of those young adult JLU novels.

  10. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackFeath View Post
    Exoristos, amazon:



    She stopped that giant animal with a headbutt...do you think she would have any problems knocking down trees with her fists? xD (Actually if I am not wrong she knocked down one in the past, but I couldn’t find the image. And she was also able to break chains).
    Maybe they can't lift aircrafts, but still amazons are stronger than humans, so I think Diana is as strong as she is also for her mother's genetic inheritance.
    Hmmm.

    I don't.

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