Why Is Wonder Woman's Mommy Making Another Mommy's Husband ..Happy?

[Vanguard-01]

While it's not good that Hippolyta sleeps with Zeus I'd foremost explain that Zeus was being unfaithful to his wife Hera.

Also that Hera seems to be more angry with everyone he sleeps with, instead of him. Which isn't right. And that she seems unhappy since she doesn't seem to love him any longer, but feel she must because of some traditional aspects of her being a queen.

An interesting thing about Hera is that she is the goddess of Marriage. "Marriage" as defined by the Ancient Greeks, who, like most ancient cultures, defined Marriage as a man owning a woman. Also like most ancient cultures, Greek law didn't punish a married man for sleeping around. There was nothing wrong with that unless a bastard child resulted from the affair. Bastards had no place in society and were a threat to the succession laws of the time. Only a married WOMAN could be punished for adultery, because if she had a bastard, that was a threat to the husband's household.

Thus? Hera punishes the only people in Zeus' affairs that she actually CAN punish. Zeus is, technically, doing nothing wrong by the standards they uphold. The women he sleeps with? Different story. They are either married themselves, and thus threatening their own husband's household. Or they are unmarried and dishonoring whatever male family member currently "owns" them. The kids, of course, are bastards, and there's nothing wrong with Hera punishing them either.

(Please note: I am not in any way espousing these beliefs as my own, I am merely illustrating how Ancient Greek beliefs shaped the perceptions of Hera's vengeance kicks.)

[numberthirty]

This is the basis of most of my issues with Azzarello's run - the message it sends out. It's ok for a women to sleep with another woman's husband as long as the child of the affair does a great mount of good in the world. It basically says it's ok for women to seduce and murder men as long as they're doing it to keep their society going. It says it's ok to stab someone who is not a physical threat to one even if the person had been a physical threat to others previously. It says it's ok to put a man's testicles in a vice-grip if he make dirty jokes towards you. Azzarello is great at coming up with reasons for these types of behaviors but the reasons don't justify the actions to me. They're excuses and easy ways out at best. Wonder Woman's world is not sending the same message to me that it previously did pre-New 52.

If someone is taking their moral cues on sexuality from a comic book, they have far bigger problems than the message the comic is putting out there.

[numberthirty]

Well...what will you say, when a young fan asks YOU that question?

Somehow, I don't think Brian Azzarello, Matt Idelson and Cliff Chang really thought that through, when they made Wonder Woman's birth the result of Queen Hippolyta's sexual indiscretions with someone else's husband. Not sure they care, .. and no-ooo, I haven't moved past this.

Deal with it. What will say? Me? Dunno...

I will ask then if they've seen any decent R rated movies lately.

Who exactly is this kid? Under what circumstances did they get their hands on the current run?

Isn't the kid's parental situation a way bigger deal than that they read a comic where a woman slept with a god that we are pretty sure never actually existed?

[Dr. Poison]

The story does NOT say that it's "okay." If it did, Hippolyta would've gotten away scot free. She didn't. Hera found out and punished Hippolyta for what she did. The fact that Hippolyta made no effort to defend or justify what she did and actually begged Hera's forgiveness proves that SHE didn't think what she did was "okay."



It says nothing of the sort. No effort was made to make the raids seem good or acceptable. They were bad things. The minute Diana gained the authority to do something about the raids, what did she do? STOPPED THEM. That's what. The story clearly tells us that these things are bad and that they should be stopped.

The Amazons RATIONALIZED their crimes by saying it's okay because they're keeping their society going. But Azz made no effort at all to say that they were right.



First off how do you KNOW Strife is no physical threat? Like most tricksters, she avoids combat like the plague. We have no idea if she can hurt Diana or not. Also? Notice how Strife herself wasn't even THAT put off by the injury? It was healed in like two seconds. It's easy enough to say that Diana KNEW she was inflicting no permanent harm.

Second? No the story doesn't say it's okay to stab random people. It says that it's okay to stop a murderous psychopath who had just THREATENED A BABY.



Let's see:

1.) Defend the weak
2.) Make friends out of foes
3.) Show compassion and mercy whenever possible
4.) Encourage people to better themselves
5.) Forgive those who wrong her
6.) Seek to end injustice when she finds it.

Sounds like her message is still alive and well to me.

The Amazons got away with doing their raids for centuries. Hippolyta faced no percussions for aiding Zeus in an adulterous affair for at least 2 decades(Diana's around 24 right?). That certainly conveys a message to me that these things are "ok" as there was no immediate or soon after repercussions of these actions. As for Strife's case, Diana physically attacked her in the middle of a crowded club. How do you think that looked to all of the bystanders especially when Diana didn't do something mild like shove Strife, she put a broken wine glass through Strife's hand. That seemed excessively violent to me.

[borntohula]

This is the basis of most of my issues with Azzarello's run - the message it sends out. It's ok for a women to sleep with another woman's husband as long as the child of the affair does a great mount of good in the world. It basically says it's ok for women to seduce and murder men as long as they're doing it to keep their society going. It says it's ok to stab someone who is not a physical threat to one even if the person had been a physical threat to others previously. It says it's ok to put a man's testicles in a vice-grip if he make dirty jokes towards you. Azzarello is great at coming up with reasons for these types of behaviors but the reasons don't justify the actions to me. They're excuses and easy ways out at best. Wonder Woman's world is not sending the same message to me that it previously did pre-New 52.

I'm sorry, but could you please elaborate on the fact that you only mention negative things that women have done during the course of the book? Outside that you'v only read the first 6 or so issues.

I'm curious not only because how you written about women above (not mentioning a single positive thing about a women, and not a thing about the negative stuff men have done) , but also the message you say the pre 52 Wonder Woman had. It really got me thinking what that message could have been.

An interesting thing about Hera is that she is the goddess of Marriage. "Marriage" as defined by the Ancient Greeks, who, like most ancient cultures, defined Marriage as a man owning a woman. Also like most ancient cultures, Greek law didn't punish a married man for sleeping around. There was nothing wrong with that unless a bastard child resulted from the affair. Bastards had no place in society and were a threat to the succession laws of the time. Only a married WOMAN could be punished for adultery, because if she had a bastard, that was a threat to the husband's household.

Thus? Hera punishes the only people in Zeus' affairs that she actually CAN punish. Zeus is, technically, doing nothing wrong by the standards they uphold. The women he sleeps with? Different story. They are either married themselves, and thus threatening their own husband's household. Or they are unmarried and dishonoring whatever male family member currently "owns" them. The kids, of course, are bastards, and there's nothing wrong with Hera punishing them either.

(Please note: I am not in any way espousing these beliefs as my own, I am merely illustrating how Ancient Greek beliefs shaped the perceptions of Hera's vengeance kicks.)

That's an interesting read, and one I think we could be able to read into the story the next couple of issues. Since the meta-meter started going to the roof in #30 (the whole issue more or less being about feminists) I'm thinking this could play into that many only seem to mention that Hippolyta did something wrong, not Zeus.

I seriously hope the book tries to tackle it, and in the same time giving some of the readers a good tackle

I will ask then if they've seen any decent R rated movies lately.

Who exactly is this kid? Under what circumstances did they get their hands on the current run?

Isn't the kid's parental situation a way bigger deal than that they read a comic where a woman slept with a god that we are pretty sure never actually existed?

Most people I grew up with (both gals and boys) read and saw the most violent stuff where was at a young age, and guess what. Everyone's grown up perfectly fine outside one or two of us (who's behavior has to do with sickness that needs medication)

And a good thing to do could be reading the stuff before hand, making it possible to explain it to the kiddos.

But then, I grew up in Scandinavia in a time when people actually bothered and gave a damn about each other.

[numberthirty]

That certainly conveys a message to me that these things are "ok" as there was no immediate or soon after repercussions of these actions.

By that logic, a murder is "ok" unless the murdered has to face immediate repercussions. Is that actually what you are saying?

[Dr. Poison]

By that logic, a murder is "ok" unless the murdered has to face immediate repercussions. Is that actually what you are saying?

I am not saying it's ok. I am saying the message this book sends to me is that the actions are ok'd due to the logic behind them or the lack of repercussions in the near future.

[Dr. Poison]

I'm sorry, but could you please elaborate on the fact that you only mention negative things that women have done during the course of the book?

I'm curious not only because how you written about women above, but also the message you say the pre 52 Wonder Woman had. It really got me thinking what that message could have been.

If you're asking what positive things I think are coming out of this run, here's what I see:


1.) Diana does show a good amount of compassion towards others. That is one thing Azz has nailed down.
2.) With the exception of needing the 3 day induced coma, Wonder Woman has been portrayed as very powerful in this run.
3.) The book is always on time. I think it's great that Azz & Co. can stick to a schedule.
4.) Sirracca is an awesome character. I hope we see more of her in the next run.
5.) Apollo was turned into a great antagonist for Wonder Woman.


I think some of you may misunderstand me and presume that I think everything Azz has done/is doing is bad but that's not the case. I simply dislike more than I like about his run.

[numberthirty]

I don't know about the idea that repercussions are a realistic gauge as to how "ok" or "not ok" any given action is. As for logic, I'm pretty sure we do not know very much about either half of that affair as far as how they viewed it in terms of "ok" vs. "not ok".

[Vanguard-01]

The Amazons got away with doing their raids for centuries.

Because there was no one to object to what they were doing. No one who was in any position to DO anything about it, at any rate.

The international community can't punish crimes of which they are unaware. The Amazons left no survivors. Thus? No one in Man's World knew what was happening and couldn't do anything about it.

The Amazons, apparently, didn't see anything wrong with what they did. At least, no one who COULD do something about it.

Who exactly was there to punish them or put a stop to the raids? No one. That's who. Then along comes Diana, who DOES object, and DOES put a stop to these crimes.

Hippolyta faced no percussions for aiding Zeus in an adulterous affair for at least 2 decades(Diana's around 24 right?). That certainly conveys a message to me that these things are "ok" as there was no immediate or soon after repercussions of these actions.

Hippolyta didn't tell Hera about the affair because she knew how Hera would respond.

Once Hera found out, Hippolyta made no effort to defend herself or make excuses for what she did. She fell to her knees before Hera and begged forgiveness.

......And then she got turned into a statue for a very long time. Sounds like repercussions to me.

As for Strife's case, Diana physically attacked her in the middle of a crowded club. How do you think that looked to all of the bystanders especially when Diana didn't do something mild like shove Strife, she put a broken wine glass through Strife's hand. That seemed excessively violent to me.

Strife is a violent psychopath. She doesn't respond to "mild shoves." She responds to force and the threat of lasting physical harm. it wasn't "excessively violent." It was "just violent enough" to show Strife that Diana meant business.

And as for the bystanders? Strange how none of them responded or even seemed to notice. And even if they DID notice? What of it? The hot brunette at the bar hurt the skanky heroin addict who was bothering her at the bar. It's not like Diana was in full Wonder Woman garb at the time. The people just saw a violent altercation in a bar. A fairly common sight. And once again, they didn't seem to notice anything in the first place.

[Dr. Poison]

Because there was no one to object to what they were doing. No one who was in any position to DO anything about it, at any rate.

The international community can't punish crimes of which they are unaware. The Amazons left no survivors. Thus? No one in Man's World knew what was happening and couldn't do anything about it.

The Amazons, apparently, didn't see anything wrong with what they did. At least, no one who COULD do something about it.

Who exactly was there to punish them or put a stop to the raids? No one. That's who. Then along comes Diana, who DOES object, and DOES put a stop to these crimes.



Hippolyta didn't tell Hera about the affair because she knew how Hera would respond.

Once Hera found out, Hippolyta made no effort to defend herself or make excuses for what she did. She fell to her knees before Hera and begged forgiveness.

......And then she got turned into a statue for a very long time. Sounds like repercussions to me.



Strife is a violent psychopath. She doesn't respond to "mild shoves." She responds to force and the threat of lasting physical harm. it wasn't "excessively violent." It was "just violent enough" to show Strife that Diana meant business.

And as for the bystanders? Strange how none of them responded or even seemed to notice. And even if they DID notice? What of it? The hot brunette at the bar hurt the skanky heroin addict who was bothering her at the bar. It's not like Diana was in full Wonder Woman garb at the time. The people just saw a violent altercation in a bar. A fairly common sight. And once again, they didn't seem to notice anything in the first place.

Who exactly was there to punish them or put a stop to the raids? How about Hippolyta? She, as the queen of the Amazons, should have come down on those who participated in the raids and made an example out of them.

I also found it very strange that no-one in the club noticed or reacted to one woman putting a broken glass through another woman's hand. Don't they call 911 in London?

[Vanguard-01]

Who exactly was there to punish them or put a stop to the raids? How about Hippolyta? She, as the queen of the Amazons, should have come down on those who participated in the raids and made an example out of them.

Hippolyta apparently was okay with the raids. Apparently she felt they were necessary. For all we know, she may have even participated in a raid or two.

In Demon Knights, it was made clear that the Amazon's raids were recorded in their library. There were logbooks of the raids right there for anyone to read.

Hippolyta knew. She just didn't think she needed to punish anyone for it.

I also found it very strange that no-one in the club noticed or reacted to one woman putting a broken glass through another woman's hand. Don't they call 911 in London?

This is a magical world with TWO gods sitting in that bar. Or was it three? Was Hermes there too? I think he was.

Very easy to say that one or more of them took steps to make sure that the entire exchange was not noticed by the mortal bystanders.

This especially makes sense if Hermes was there. Illusions are something he's known for. Strife too, one assumes. Two trickster gods, you know?

Why did no one call 911, or whatever the British equivalent is? Because no one saw anything. Simple. Done.

[borntohula]

If you're asking what positive things I think are coming out of this run, here's what I see:


1.) Diana does show a good amount of compassion towards others. That is one thing Azz has nailed down.
2.) With the exception of needing the 3 day induced coma, Wonder Woman has been portrayed as very powerful in this run.
3.) The book is always on time. I think it's great that Azz & Co. can stick to a schedule.
4.) Sirracca is an awesome character. I hope we see more of her in the next run.
5.) Apollo was turned into a great antagonist for Wonder Woman.


I think some of you may misunderstand me and presume that I think everything Azz has done/is doing is bad but that's not the case. I simply dislike more than I like about his run.

No, I'm asking why you only mention negative things about women. You for example only mention Hippolyta, not Zeus. Nor that Hera seems bound to him by tradition (she asks Hippolyta what HE said to her to make her love him) and the work Wonder Woman done to make her more comfortable in herself. Nor you weight on that Zola couldn't have known it was Zeus she slept with. This and more --women. It has a certain "flair" to it.

I also found it very strange that no-one in the club noticed or reacted to one woman putting a broken glass through another woman's hand. Don't they call 911 in London?

No one calls 999 for such puny thing in England. Give er a patch and pony up a pint of peace pilsner and all is okay

[LoneNecromancer]

Why is Batman's Mummy and Daddy lying in a pool of red stuff? Why aren't they getting up?

[Dr. Poison]

No, I'm asking why you only mention negative things about women. You for example only mention Hippolyta, not Zeus. Nor that Hera seems bound to him by tradition (she asks Hippolyta what HE said to her to make her love him) and the work Wonder Woman done to make her more comfortable in herself. Nor you weight on that Zola couldn't have known it was Zeus she slept with. This and more --women. It has a certain "flair" to it.



No one calls 999 for such puny thing in England. Give er a patch and pony up a pint of peace pilsner and all is okay

I didn't mention Zeus because I don't really care about him all that much. I do think he committed a greater sin in the affair than Hippolyta did as he was one who was committed to Hera. Does that answer your question?