Why Is Wonder Woman's Mommy Making Another Mommy's Husband ..Happy?

[LoneNecromancer]

No one calls 999 for such puny thing in England. Give er a patch and pony up a pint of peace pilsner and all is okay

Ours is the only country where "glass" is used as a verb, it's a regular thing.

...dunno what the second sentence is about.

[borntohula]

Why is Batman's Mummy and Daddy lying in a pool of red stuff? Why aren't they getting up?

Blood could be slippery to give an explanation. Not sure I'd want to explain such thing to a kid, and that's PERIOD.

Ours is the only country where "glass" is used as a verb, it's a regular thing.

...dunno what the second sentence is about.

Pint = a glass.
Peace = basically beer.
Pilser = Czechich for beer.

You buy someone a drink and then everything is fine again = Scandinavian peacemaking.

I didn't mention Zeus because I don't really care about him all that much. I do think he committed a greater sin in the affair than Hippolyta did as he was one who was committed to Hera. Does that answer your question?

Perhaps: "I didn't mention Zeus because I don't really care about him" does, since I'm interested in why it's only women you're being negative about.

[Raiden]

Not really sure why this is a problem? -_-

.
Because it happened in a comic written by Brian azzarello.

[Dr. Poison]

Blood could be slippery to give an explanation. Not sure I'd want to explain such thing to a kid, and that's PERIOD.



Pint = a glass.
Peace = basically beer.
Pilser = Czechich for beer.

You buy someone a drink and then everything is fine again = Scandinavian peacemaking.



Perhaps: "I didn't mention Zeus because I don't really care about him" does, since I'm interested in why it's only women you're being negative about.

The only male character in the book I really like is Apollo current and he is quite foul and sinister but he didn't have a major role in the previous version of Wonder Woman so I'm not upset about the change to his behavior. The First Born is digesting personified but again, I don't really care about him so that's why I don't bring him up much. Wonder Woman, Hippolyta, and the Amazons have been some of my favorite characters for decades so to see them behaving like they have been in this run disappoints me.

[Dr. Poison]

Blood could be slippery to give an explanation. Not sure I'd want to explain such thing to a kid, and that's PERIOD.



Pint = a glass.
Peace = basically beer.
Pilser = Czechich for beer.

You buy someone a drink and then everything is fine again = Scandinavian peacemaking.



Perhaps: "I didn't mention Zeus because I don't really care about him" does, since I'm interested in why it's only women you're being negative about.

Also - I take it you haven't seen any of my previous complaints about Orion's behavior towards Wonder Woman?

[Blacksun]

Well said, brettc1.

Sorry, Vanguard-01.

This is the basis of most of my issues with Azzarello's run - the message it sends out. It's ok for a women to sleep with another woman's husband as long as the child of the affair does a great mount of good in the world. It basically says it's ok for women to seduce and murder men as long as they're doing it to keep their society going. It says it's ok to stab someone who is not a physical threat to one even if the person had been a physical threat to others previously. It says it's ok to put a man's testicles in a vice-grip if he make dirty jokes towards you. Azzarello is great at coming up with reasons for these types of behaviors but the reasons don't justify the actions to me. They're excuses and easy ways out at best. Wonder Woman's world is not sending the same message to me that it previously did pre-New 52.

he also slapped her butt. it wasn't only the dirty jokes. Maybe it isn't right, but I also don't think it's wrong.

[borntohula]

Also - I take it you haven't seen any of my previous complaints about Orion's behavior towards Wonder Woman?

Perhaps I have, but I was mostly curious (perhaps concerned) about what you wrote in this thread.

But I sense you're not up to answering. So perhaps it's for the better to leave it there.

[Dr. Poison]

Perhaps I have, but I was mostly curious (perhaps concerned) about what you wrote in this thread.

But I sense you're not up to answering. So perhaps it's for the better to leave it there.

Not up to answering? I've tried answering you a few different times. What am I missing here?

[Auguste Dupin]

Well...what will you say, when a young fan asks YOU that question?

Somehow, I don't think Brian Azzarello, Matt Idelson and Cliff Chang really thought that through, when they made Wonder Woman's birth the result of Queen Hippolyta's sexual indiscretions with someone else's husband. Not sure they care, .. and no-ooo, I haven't moved past this.

Deal with it. What will say? Me? Dunno...

The truth.
That sometimes, people who are already married fall in love with other people.
Kids are smart. They can handle stuff.More than we assume they do.

[SSJ4JW]

Has there been any woman who rejected Zeus' advances? Has there been one woman who Zeus could not get? Just wondering.

[Bruce Wayne]

Why did Superman and Supergirl have to come here? Why can't they stay on Krypton with their mommies and daddies?

[Step]

Has there been any woman who rejected Zeus' advances? Has there been one woman who Zeus could not get? Just wondering.

In Wonder Woman? Well, in the New 52, no, but he was hardly there.

Pre-52 Diana refused him, he almost forced himself on her before Hippolyta put a stop to it in Perez's run

[Pinsir]

Has there been any woman who rejected Zeus' advances? Has there been one woman who Zeus could not get? Just wondering.

WW did under Perez. She didn't know what sex was though...

[dreyga2000]

I would go with the truth. If the kid is old to read and comprehend the material, odds are they can understand what's going on. People really tend to underestimate the intelligence of children.

[brettc1]

As you say, that's pretty extreme. In those examples, the message of the story changes to "Luke and/or Vader weren't really important to the story." Which really would suck for everyone who watched the trilogy.

No, they would still be important, though someone watching ROTJ at the surface level might question that - the three of them seem to play little part in the final battle on and above Endor. Seem to, though that is not the case.

Hippolyta making a mistake due to supernatural influence doesn't change anyone's importance in the story.

The point I was making was the final movie is largely about Vader's redemption [I'm ignoring the rubbish that followed in the prequels here]. Luke makes a heroic choice to seeks his fathers salvation in the face of all odds and indeed all other advice. Had he simply killed Vader and then defeated the Emperor in combat the outcome of the movie would remain the same but the quality of the story and its emotional impact would have been greatly reduced.

I think you're missing the point. In THIS case, it's not Hippolyta falling for Zeus "just because he's hot." Epic Manipulation makes you do things and makes you think that you actually WANT to do them. That they were your ideas. Epic Manipulation is the insidious Social Attribute. ALL the Trickster Gods have maximum Epic Manipulation pretty much by default. So, Hippolyta falling for Zeus while thinking it was her own (bad) choice is CLASSIC Epic Manipulation work. The key word is "thinking." In reality, Epic Manipulation is mind control that makes you think it's NOT mind control.

What you are describing is rape, of course.

In the Scion forum, we have had many debates about the morality of wielding divine powers in given circumstances. Since sex is such a big deal in mythology, this is a particularly popular topic. We Scion fans disagree on the morality of using OTHER powers in various ways, but we reached an almost universal consensus that using Epic Manipulation to get sex is unquestionably rape. Charisma and Appearance? Not so much. But Manipulation? Definitely. If you EVER use Epic Manipulation to get someone to sleep with you, congratulations! You're a rapist!

So we agree here.

Thus? You don't really have Hippolyta falling for Zeus "because he's hot." MAYBE he used his Epic Appearance to seduce her. The fact that Hippolyta remembers the sex as being her choice COULD mean that it really was her choice.......or it could mean that Epic Manipulation was used to just make her THINK it was her choice. In other words? Hippolyta may very well have been raped without even realizing it.

I neglected to mention that the Epic Attributes in Scion have specific powers, called "Knacks," which reflect a refinement of the raw power of the Epic Attributes. Epic Manipulation Knacks are where you go to find the straight-up mind control powers. With the right Epic Manipulation Knacks, I could walk up to you, look you in the eye, and tell you to go home and kill your wife and kids and then bathe in their blood, and you'd do it. Worse? Epic Manipulation also has Knacks that can mess with your memory. I could make you do this terrible thing and leave you convinced that IT WAS YOUR IDEA TO DO IT. That you wanted to do it.

Scary, huh? So using Epic Manipulation to trick Hippolyta into sex and then altering her memory to make her THINK that it was consensual suddenly isn't THAT different from Heracles raping Hippolyta while she was drugged as Marston said.

Based on what I've seen, I'm inclined to believe that Zeus used Epic Manipulation, not Epic Appearance or Epic Charisma. Perhaps he used a combination of the three, but unless Azz specifically spells it out that Hippolyta wasn't influenced in any way when she had sex with Zeus, then my headcanon leans toward subtle mind control and memory tampering.

First, Azzarello has so far denied the rape scenario [so far].

But more importantly, in Marton's writing Diana is not Heracles daughter. Hippolyta did not conceive a child against her will - her unfulfilled love for a child enabled the gods to work a miracle.

Stories are representative, as much as entertainment - that is their power from millennia ago. In Marston's version, her birth is result of a woman's love. In the scenario described, it is the result of a man's lust. The question of course them becomes how would Diana react towards that man as her father after what he had done to her mother? Should she hate him, or should she be grateful for her existence?

More importantly I think though, is what this story represents at the meta level. Say the epic manipulation was proven - that would mean that Zeus rape of Hippolyta was a good thing because it gave us Wonder Woman. I cant reconcile that with Marston's original premise.

Even if the relationship were completely consensual as Azzarello has said, Hippolyta, Queen of the Amazons, still betrays another woman to get what she wants. As far as female empowerment goes it is again a long way short of Marston's purposes.