Why Is Wonder Woman's Mommy Making Another Mommy's Husband ..Happy?

[LoneNecromancer]

Thus? You don't really have Hippolyta falling for Zeus "because he's hot." MAYBE he used his Epic Appearance to seduce her. The fact that Hippolyta remembers the sex as being her choice COULD mean that it really was her choice.......or it could mean that Epic Manipulation was used to just make her THINK it was her choice. In other words? Hippolyta may very well have been raped without even realizing it.

I neglected to mention that the Epic Attributes in Scion have specific powers, called "Knacks," which reflect a refinement of the raw power of the Epic Attributes. Epic Manipulation Knacks are where you go to find the straight-up mind control powers. With the right Epic Manipulation Knacks, I could walk up to you, look you in the eye, and tell you to go home and kill your wife and kids and then bathe in their blood, and you'd do it. Worse? Epic Manipulation also has Knacks that can mess with your memory. I could make you do this terrible thing and leave you convinced that IT WAS YOUR IDEA TO DO IT. That you wanted to do it.

Scary, huh? So using Epic Manipulation to trick Hippolyta into sex and then altering her memory to make her THINK that it was consensual suddenly isn't THAT different from Heracles raping Hippolyta while she was drugged as Marston said.

Based on what I've seen, I'm inclined to believe that Zeus used Epic Manipulation, not Epic Appearance or Epic Charisma. Perhaps he used a combination of the three, but unless Azz specifically spells it out that Hippolyta wasn't influenced in any way when she had sex with Zeus, then my headcanon leans toward subtle mind control and memory tampering.

Are you actually inventing something to be offended about? XDD

[Vanguard-01]

What you are describing is rape, of course.

So we agree here.

Of course it's rape. I don't know how anyone could possibly describe it as anything other than that. As I said, in the Scion forums, we've had many spirited debates about using OTHER in-game powers in order to get sex, and no real consensus could be reached. Other people just have different opinions on some matters.

But using straight-up mind control? Like I said, I can't recall a single poster in that discussion who made a serious attempt to say that Epic Manipulation wouldn't be rape.

First, Azzarello has so far denied the rape scenario [so far].

He really hasn't. All he's done is had Hippolyta SAY that the sex was consensual. If her memory is messed up? OF COURSE she'd say that.

Stories are representative, as much as entertainment - that is their power from millennia ago. In Marston's version, her birth is result of a woman's love. In the scenario described, it is the result of a man's lust. The question of course them becomes how would Diana react towards that man as her father after what he had done to her mother? Should she hate him, or should she be grateful for her existence?

Oh, absolutely Diana should hate him IF my theory is even accurate. And I'm not saying it is. Really I got a little carried away with the Epic Manipulation analogy, looking back on it. The point I was really trying to make is that mythologically, Zeus has a track record of getting what he wants through sheer force of personality, which can impair a woman's judgment.

So, yeah, looking back on it? I'm hoping the Epic Manipulation theory ends up being false, because you're right: that would be an unpleasant change to Diana's origin.

More importantly I think though, is what this story represents at the meta level. Say the epic manipulation was proven - that would mean that Zeus rape of Hippolyta was a good thing because it gave us Wonder Woman. I cant reconcile that with Marston's original premise.

Yeah, I just reached that conclusion myself. Saying that it was a good thing that Hippolyta was raped IS an ugly thing to say. Not to mention patently false.

Although, it could be said that it's not so much that THE RAPE was the good thing. But the idea that such a wonderful (ha!) thing could come from such an ugly event. Diana herself was innocent and in a way, her going on to be such a great hero (one who does a fair bit of protecting the people of Earth from the crimes of Zeus and his Pantheon) is kind of spitting in the eye of all that ugliness.

But, yeah. At the end of the day? I'd just rather say Hippolyta wasn't raped. I'm with you on that one.

Even if the relationship were completely consensual as Azzarello has said, Hippolyta, Queen of the Amazons, still betrays another woman to get what she wants. As far as female empowerment goes it is again a long way short of Marston's purposes.

Now, HERE I must disagree.

For one thing, we don't know that Hippolyta wanted a child this time around. That wasn't the express reason why Hippolyta had sex with Zeus. If all she wanted was a child, she could've just gone along on the next raid and picked herself out a baby daddy/victim. Ugly, I know. But it WAS an option for her.

So, no. Hippolyta didn't betray Hera to get what she wanted. If the sex was consensual, she betrayed Hera because her emotions got the better of her and caused her to do the wrong thing.

In fact, don't I remember Hippolyta specifically saying that she and Zeus fell in love when they had their affair? In that case, it was a betrayal of the heart. There was no malice in it.

[Vanguard-01]

Are you actually inventing something to be offended about? XDD

I don't really understand? What are you getting at?

[brettc1]

Now, HERE I must disagree.

For one thing, we don't know that Hippolyta wanted a child this time around. That wasn't the express reason why Hippolyta had sex with Zeus. If all she wanted was a child, she could've just gone along on the next raid and picked herself out a baby daddy/victim. Ugly, I know. But it WAS an option for her.

So, no. Hippolyta didn't betray Hera to get what she wanted. If the sex was consensual, she betrayed Hera because her emotions got the better of her and caused her to do the wrong thing.

In fact, don't I remember Hippolyta specifically saying that she and Zeus fell in love when they had their affair? In that case, it was a betrayal of the heart. There was no malice in it.

Sorry, I was imprecise. When I said "to get what she wanted" I meant banging Zeus.

Having said that, the early Azzarello issues establish the idea that Hippolyta could not conceive normally [I guess there is only way for the Amazons to know about that, but lets hope another one is given].

So its possible either Hippolyta's affair was in part prompted by her subconscious longing for a child [assuming Zeus could get her pregnant where a normal human could not]. Or Zeus may have played on that idea and her need for a child to get her in the sack.

[Flash Gordon]

Well...what will you say, when a young fan asks YOU that question?

Somehow, I don't think Brian Azzarello, Matt Idelson and Cliff Chang really thought that through, when they made Wonder Woman's birth the result of Queen Hippolyta's sexual indiscretions with someone else's husband. Not sure they care, .. and no-ooo, I haven't moved past this.

Deal with it. What will say? Me? Dunno...

This must be strictly a problem for Americans. Anything involving sex is horrible, but Wonder Woman can chop off Medusa's head and that's just Tuesday.

It's a silly question, if a 5 year old is capable of reading a dark book like WONDER WOMAN and understanding it, I would think that they're ready to hear that people cheat.

I was introduced to Greek mythology, and my native Celtic mythology, at a really really young age.

[Bruce Wayne]

The inverted power relationship between Zeus and Hippolyta would imply the relationship was far from being a relation of equals or implied consent at all.

[Vanguard-01]

Sorry, I was imprecise. When I said "to get what she wanted" I meant banging Zeus.

Having said that, the early Azzarello issues establish the idea that Hippolyta could not conceive normally [I guess there is only way for the Amazons to know about that, but lets hope another one is given].

So its possible either Hippolyta's affair was in part prompted by her subconscious longing for a child [assuming Zeus could get her pregnant where a normal human could not]. Or Zeus may have played on that idea and her need for a child to get her in the sack.

That is possible.

It's also possible that Hippolyta may not have been AWARE of that subconscious longing. At least not at the time of conception. It's possible she was just kind of lost in the moment and didn't think much about what she was doing.

Not ideal, I grant you. But understandable enough.

Or yes, the idea of Zeus manipulating Hippolyta's need for a child is possible as well. That does mean that Diana was born from Zeus' lust.......and Hippolyta's desire for a child. When you get down to it? Big deal. Zeus got his thrills for a moment. Hippolyta got a beloved daughter for a lifetime.

End of the day? Hippolyta got the better end of the deal. Honestly, this scenario just further illustrates how pathetic Zeus really is. A sad piece of crap who only cares about a little transitory pleasure compared to the endless pleasure of loving a child.

[Flash Gordon]

"Hey Daddy, why was Batman raised by his butler?"

[brettc1]

"Hey Daddy, why was Batman raised by his butler?"

"Well Billy, whatever the reason is you can be sure it's NOT because Batman's mommy and daddy did anything wrong."

[dupersuper]

Are you actually inventing something to be offended about? XDD

Forget it, LoneNecromancer. It's the internet.

[Auguste Dupin]

This must be strictly a problem for Americans. Anything involving sex is horrible, but Wonder Woman can chop off Medusa's head and that's just Tuesday.

It's a silly question, if a 5 year old is capable of reading a dark book like WONDER WOMAN and understanding it, I would think that they're ready to hear that people cheat.

I was introduced to Greek mythology, and my native Celtic mythology, at a really really young age.

Yeah, that's the funny part. Wonder Woman by Azzarello is violent book where Centaurs come out of the bloody corpse of horses an where a guy gets eaten alive piece by piece for a few issues, but adultery is completely unnacceptable in it, apparently.
I mean, sex. Did any one think about the children?

[Silvanus]

More importantly I think though, is what this story represents at the meta level. Say the epic manipulation was proven - that would mean that Zeus rape of Hippolyta was a good thing because it gave us Wonder Woman.

No. It would mean that a bad act had unintended good consequences. That doesn't make the act itself good, unless you think that the ends (and even accidental end results) justify the means.

It just means that fate "drew straight with crooked lines." Sometimes even bad acts seem to contribute, even if unwittingly and unwillingly, to the fulfillment of a larger plan. Christian theologians and poets talk about the feliz culpa, or fortunate fall; without sin, there wouldn't be the glorious history of salvation, but that doesn't mean sin isn't sin.

I cant reconcile that with Marston's original premise.

In Marston, the Amazons might never have come to the island had they not been deceived and enslaved by Hercules, and Wonder Woman's mission might never have been launched had it not been for Hitler. This doesn't mean Hercules' or Hitler's acts constituted "a good thing." It just means that they set off chain reactions which led indirectly, by accident or destiny, to a good thing.

Even if the relationship were completely consensual as Azzarello has said, Hippolyta, Queen of the Amazons, still betrays another woman to get what she wants. As far as female empowerment goes it is again a long way short of Marston's purposes.

The empowerment, in this version, happens a generation later, when Diana takes the lessons of independence and self-reliance she learned from Hippolyta and imparts them to Hera, who was until then the embodiment of the disempowered self-concept of women formed by patriarchy.

[borntohula]

Not up to answering? I've tried answering you a few different times. What am I missing here?

I'v asked you the following, four times:

could you please elaborate on the fact that you only mention negative things that women have done during the course of the book?

No, I'm asking why you only mention negative things about women.

I'm interested in why it's only women you're being negative about.

I'm curious not only because how you written about women above (not mentioning a single positive thing about a women...)

Because:

the message you say the pre 52 Wonder Woman had. It really got me thinking what that message could have been.

[Vanguard-01]

No. It would mean that a bad act had unintended good consequences. That doesn't make the act good, unless you think that the ends (and even accidental end results) justify the means.

It just means that fate "drew straight with crooked lines." Sometimes even bad acts seem to contribute, even if unwittingly and unwillingly, to the fulfillment of a larger plan. Christian theologians talk about the feliz culpa, or fortunate fall; without sin, there wouldn't be the glorious history of salvation, but that doesn't mean sin isn't sin.

That's kinda what I was thinking yesterday. I just didn't know how to put it into the right words.

As I said, it WOULD show Diana as something of a triumph over adversity if something good COULD result from such a disgusting act as the one we're describing.

The empowerment, in this version, happens a generation later, when Diana takes the lessons of independence and self-reliance she learned from Hippolyta and imparts them to Hera, who was until then the embodiment of the disempowered self-concept of women formed by patriarchy.

Very true.

As I explained a page or two back: Hera is the Goddess of a system of Marriage that specifically states that the woman is property. Why does Hera put up with Zeus' philandering at all? Because she HAD to. It was her nature.

But Diana got Ares to change HIS nature, after all. Now, it looks as though she's helped Hera change hers. Now Hera may be about to pull off something of a paradigm shift in the concepts she represents.

THAT's about as empowering as you can get.

[Silvanus]

"Well Billy, whatever the reason is you can be sure it's NOT because Batman's mommy and daddy did anything wrong."

"But, Daddy, I read in Earth 2 that Batman's daddy was a corrupt doctor and illegal drug supplier who faked his own death, and that's why Batman was raised by Alfred. And, oh yeah--later Batman's daddy killed for revenge, and now he's Batman."

"Well, yes, son, but he didn't do anything really wrong, like having sex outside wedlock."