Why Is Wonder Woman's Mommy Making Another Mommy's Husband ..Happy?

[Dr. Poison]

I'v asked you the following, four times:









Because:

Ok, let's try this again. Yes, initially in this thread I only brought up negative things about some of the female characters in this book. Why? There are a few reasons:


1.) The female characters I mentioned are the ones that are most important to me out of all of those that appear in this book.
2.) The only male characters I care about who are appearing in this book currently are Orion and Apollo. While Orion did some things that bothered me, I'm nowhere near as much of a fan of him as I am of Wonder Woman, Hippolyta, and the Amazons. As for Apollo, he never did much in Wonder Woman before Azz's run so I don't mind that he's been turned into a villain.


Does that answer your question? If not, I'm going to need more clarity as to what exactly you're looking for me to explain.

[Dr. Poison]

"But, Daddy, I read in Earth 2 that Batman's daddy was a corrupt doctor and illegal drug supplier who faked his own death, and that's why Batman was raised by Alfred. And, oh yeah--later Batman's daddy killed for revenge, and now he's Batman."

"Well, yes, son, but he didn't do anything really wrong, like having sex outside wedlock."

But that's not the Earth 52 Batman, that's an alternate earth Batman so that doesn't really count IMO.

[BlackFeath]

Having said that, the early Azzarello issues establish the idea that Hippolyta could not conceive normally [I guess there is only way for the Amazons to know about that, but lets hope another one is given].

So its possible either Hippolyta's affair was in part prompted by her subconscious longing for a child [assuming Zeus could get her pregnant where a normal human could not]. Or Zeus may have played on that idea and her need for a child to get her in the sack.

That was said by Hermes when he told Zola that Diana had been sculpted from clay, though, so I wouldn't consider that as a proof she couldn't conceive with a normal man but with Zeus yes...

That's kinda what I was thinking yesterday. I just didn't know how to put it into the right words.

As I said, it WOULD show Diana as something of a triumph over adversity if something good COULD result from such a disgusting act as the one we're describing.



Very true.

As I explained a page or two back: Hera is the Goddess of a system of Marriage that specifically states that the woman is property. Why does Hera put up with Zeus' philandering at all? Because she HAD to. It was her nature.

But Diana got Ares to change HIS nature, after all. Now, it looks as though she's helped Hera change hers. Now Hera may be about to pull off something of a paradigm shift in the concepts she represents.

THAT's about as empowering as you can get.

Yes, the way Diana can inspire and change the others is one of the main theme of this run, I think, and also the thing I like more ^^.
This is how Hera started and what she thought about Zeus at the beginning when Zola asks her why she didn't kill Zeus instead of the children and their mothers:



I think that now also her vision of that has changed a lot. Just think at how she protects Zola and Zeke! And maybe, she recognizes also Zeus's faults.

[Gaelforce]

"But, Daddy, I read in Earth 2 that Batman's daddy was a corrupt doctor and illegal drug supplier who faked his own death, and that's why Batman was raised by Alfred. And, oh yeah--later Batman's daddy killed for revenge, and now he's Batman."

"Well, yes, son, but he didn't do anything really wrong, like having sex outside wedlock."

This isn't the Batman most kids/people know. We can start dragging elseworld stories into this and it's pointless.

The thing is when a kid asks about Batman's parents? The answer is 'a bad man did a bad thing and killed them.'

When you talk about Krypton and Superman's parents? Because a terrible tragedy happened to their world.

The Waynes and the Els and Krypton? They're victims. What happened to them didn't occur because they did anything wrong/illegal/immoral.

Hippolyta slept with a married man. Worse, she slept with the married man of her patron goddess and unlike the other women from the mythological stories? She knew full well who she was sleeping with. Zeus didn't appear to her as anyone but himself.

Have any other DC heroes been changed (or did they even start off) as the result of someone doing something immoral? (And I'm not a Christian, but I find the idea of knowingly sleeping with someone's husband, let alone the husband of someone you know and (supposedly) love, to be incredibly wrong)

That's the difference. This isn't just about talking to a kid about sex or violence but about how someone who *used* to be admirable and noble (Hippolyta) now being shown as an adulteress and a liar, and the origin of a major super hero resulting from that act.

[Silvanus]

But that's not the Earth 52 Batman, that's an alternate earth Batman so that doesn't really count IMO.

"..and so, you see, son, that's just an alternate universe Batman...not the real Batman at all."

"Um, Daddy...You do know there isn't a 'real Batman,' don't you? Maybe you should come to school with me today so that my teacher can explain to you about make believe."



But, seriously, Brett was talking about "the meta level" or symbolic meaning, and I'm not sure the symbolic meaning changes that much, especially (but not only) from a child's point of view, whether you label a story "Prime Earth" or "Earth Two."

Personally, it's Ok with me, because I think the symbolic meaning is that even flawed people like Thomas Wayne can be inspired by heroes and can try to do better things with their lives (even if they still are far from perfect).

And in Wonder Woman's case, I think the symbolic meaning has to do with the hope of a hero coming out of a bad situation and showing everyone a better way. (And I very much agree with what Vanguard is saying along those lines.)

This isn't just about talking to a kid about sex or violence but about how someone who *used* to be admirable and noble (Hippolyta) now being shown as an adulteress and a liar, and the origin of a major super hero resulting from that act.

Lots of people who have done admirable and noble things have also made terrible mistakes. Even the pre-crisis Hippolyta made some pretty bad mistakes, in my view, like messing with her daughter's memory. Still, I can understand, of course, that many Hippolyta fans don't like stories that show her in a bad light.

For me personally, what's more important is that the origin of a major superhero can result from a bad act. This, to me, is a very positive and hopeful idea. Most people have bad as well as good in their background, and it's good to be able to believe that good can be made out of bad.

I'm not a Christian either, anymore, but I mentioned the idea of the fortunate fall--that great good can come as the indirect result of great evil--because I think it's a powerfully hopeful idea. It's not uniquely Christian, and in fact it can probably be found in most major religions, and I mentioned the Christian version just because it's the one that came to mind. I don't know if there's another major, non-alternate-world superhero who came into existence as a result of her parents' sins--but if not, I say "good for Wonder Woman."

[Dr. Poison]

"..and so, you see, son, that's just an alternate universe Batman...not the real Batman at all."

"Um, Daddy...You do know there isn't a 'real Batman,' don't you? Maybe you should come to school with me today so that my teacher can explain to you about make believe."



But, seriously, Brett was talking about "the meta level" or symbolic meaning, and I'm not sure the symbolic meaning changes that much, especially (but not only) from a child's point of view, whether you label a story "Prime Earth" or "Earth Two."

Personally, it's Ok with me, because I think the symbolic meaning is that even flawed people like Thomas Wayne can be inspired by heroes and can try to do better things with their lives (even if they still are far from perfect).

And in Wonder Woman's case, I think the symbolic meaning has to do with the hope of a hero coming out of a bad situation and showing everyone a better way. (And I very much agree with what Vanguard is saying along those lines.)

I guess I've just never subscribed to the belief that my heroes have to be dramatically flawed for me to relate to them. I do agree it's great that when someone makes a mistake, they recognize their mistake and strive to be a better person but when it comes to fiction heroes that inspire me, I'd rather they be a little closer to perfect as that's what inspires me to become a better person myself.

[brettc1]

This isn't the Batman most kids/people know. We can start dragging elseworld stories into this and it's pointless.

The thing is when a kid asks about Batman's parents? The answer is 'a bad man did a bad thing and killed them.'

When you talk about Krypton and Superman's parents? Because a terrible tragedy happened to their world.

The Waynes and the Els and Krypton? They're victims. What happened to them didn't occur because they did anything wrong/illegal/immoral.

Hippolyta slept with a married man. Worse, she slept with the married man of her patron goddess and unlike the other women from the mythological stories? She knew full well who she was sleeping with. Zeus didn't appear to her as anyone but himself.

Have any other DC heroes been changed (or did they even start off) as the result of someone doing something immoral? (And I'm not a Christian, but I find the idea of knowingly sleeping with someone's husband, let alone the husband of someone you know and (supposedly) love, to be incredibly wrong)

That's the difference. This isn't just about talking to a kid about sex or violence but about how someone who *used* to be admirable and noble (Hippolyta) now being shown as an adulteress and a liar, and the origin of a major super hero resulting from that act.

This.

"..and so, you see, son, that's just an alternate universe Batman...not the real Batman at all."

"Um, Daddy...You do know there isn't a 'real Batman,' don't you? Maybe you should come to school with me today so that my teacher can explain to you about make believe."



But, seriously, Brett was talking about "the meta level" or symbolic meaning, and I'm not sure the symbolic meaning changes that much, especially (but not only) from a child's point of view, whether you label a story "Prime Earth" or "Earth Two."

Personally, it's Ok with me, because I think the symbolic meaning is that even flawed people like Thomas Wayne can be inspired by heroes and can try to do better things with their lives (even if they still are far from perfect).

And in Wonder Woman's case, I think the symbolic meaning has to do with the hope of a hero coming out of a bad situation and showing everyone a better way. (And I very much agree with what Vanguard is saying along those lines.)

Children are actually pretty perceptive, and of course the story doesn't stop with Hippolyta's adultery.

Like, as an example, why do the Amazons hate men so much that they have babies with them and then murder them.

Heroes can of course come from anywhere, and since I mentioned Star Wars earlier Luke Skywalker is an excellent example.

However, Vader's story is very different. We learn by degrees that he was seduced to the Dark Side largely by the wiles of the Emperor. Also, his fall happened after his children's conception.

But, and this is a key point, Azzarello's changing of Wonder Woman's birth story is not rooted in any philosophy. It happens simply because the story as written cannot work unless Wonder Woman is a blood relative of Zeus. This does, however, change the story at a meta level.

Now you could argue that the altered message of the heroes story is as valuable as previously, but you cant honestly say it is the same.

[Spair]

Hippolyta slept with a married man. Worse, she slept with the married man of her patron goddess and unlike the other women from the mythological stories? She knew full well who she was sleeping with. Zeus didn't appear to her as anyone but himself.

Have any other DC heroes been changed (or did they even start off) as the result of someone doing something immoral? (And I'm not a Christian, but I find the idea of knowingly sleeping with someone's husband, let alone the husband of someone you know and (supposedly) love, to be incredibly wrong)

That's the difference. This isn't just about talking to a kid about sex or violence but about how someone who *used* to be admirable and noble (Hippolyta) now being shown as an adulteress and a liar, and the origin of a major super hero resulting from that act.

This quote ^^^^^ right there!

Every time I think of Hippolyta... I just shake my head. There is no getting around it. I know character faults and idiosyncrasies make for more interesting stories but this, for her? Tsk, Tsk, Tsk.

[Auguste Dupin]

This isn't the Batman most kids/people know. We can start dragging elseworld stories into this and it's pointless.

The thing is when a kid asks about Batman's parents? The answer is 'a bad man did a bad thing and killed them.'

When you talk about Krypton and Superman's parents? Because a terrible tragedy happened to their world.

The Waynes and the Els and Krypton? They're victims. What happened to them didn't occur because they did anything wrong/illegal/immoral.

Hippolyta slept with a married man. Worse, she slept with the married man of her patron goddess and unlike the other women from the mythological stories? She knew full well who she was sleeping with. Zeus didn't appear to her as anyone but himself.

Have any other DC heroes been changed (or did they even start off) as the result of someone doing something immoral? (And I'm not a Christian, but I find the idea of knowingly sleeping with someone's husband, let alone the husband of someone you know and (supposedly) love, to be incredibly wrong)

That's the difference. This isn't just about talking to a kid about sex or violence but about how someone who *used* to be admirable and noble (Hippolyta) now being shown as an adulteress and a liar, and the origin of a major super hero resulting from that act.

And what does this change exactly?
If anything, the idea that someone can still be heroic and a positive figure despite his parents'......let's say shortcomings, is a message that I find extremely positive.

[Gaelforce]

And what does this change exactly?
If anything, the idea that someone can still be heroic and a positive figure despite his parents'......let's say shortcomings, is a message that I find extremely positive.

What this changes is that one of the very few strong female characters in comicdom (Hippolyta) and one of the only strong female supporting casts in comic history (the Amazons) are the ONLY ones being shown as blatantly unlikable in the mainstream DCU.

This is a terrible message to send. Period. Imagine if the Kents were southern redneck racists or if the Waynes were corrupt mobsters and Alfred carried on the family business for them. But it's made even worse by the fact that there are so few independent female characters who take inspiration from women (as opposed to the male parent) that it's almost tragic (in the comic book scale of things).

It completely changes the dynamic of the character and throws mud on decades of history for a supporting cast that many fans like and admire.

If this were a new story for a new character from scratch? That's fine. Overcoming your sullied family history to shine on your own merits is a great story.

It's just not Diana's story, imo.

[Auguste Dupin]

What this changes is that one of the very few strong female characters in comicdom (Hippolyta) and one of the only strong female supporting casts in comic history (the Amazons) are the ONLY ones being shown as blatantly unlikable in the mainstream DCU.

This is a terrible message to send. Period. Imagine if the Kents were southern redneck racists or if the Waynes were corrupt mobsters and Alfred carried on the family business for them. But it's made even worse by the fact that there are so few independent female characters who take inspiration from women (as opposed to the male parent) that it's almost tragic (in the comic book scale of things).

It completely changes the dynamic of the character and throws mud on decades of history for a supporting cast that many fans like and admire.

If this were a new story for a new character from scratch? That's fine. Overcoming your sullied family history to shine on your own merits is a great story.

It's just not Diana's story, imo.

....Are you.....putting Hyppolita having sex with a married man on the same level as the raids? Because that was what we were talking about.
And if anything, I find Hypolita much more likable now. Not that likable is the same as inspiring.

[Silvanus]

Children are actually pretty perceptive..

Absolutely. That was part of the point of my little dialogue--kids are perceptive enough to realize that "Prime Earth" is no more real than "Earth Two" and that stories set on either make-believe world can be meaningful.

Like, as an example, why do the Amazons hate men so much that they have babies with them and then murder them.

If a young child asked me that, I'd probably try to change the subject. This story wasn't meant for children. If a mature and intelligent young adult asked, though, I might say something like this:

We don't really know why for sure, because the story hasn't said. We know a couple of things from history and just from living though: first, men have had a lot of power and have treated people badly; and secondly, when people feel they have been treated badly and they get a little power, they sometimes react by mistreating whoever is vulnerable (especially if they are also different). It's not right--in fact, it's very wrong--but it happens. The cool thing, though, is how Wonder Woman is trying to get them to change and to love other people--even males, starting with Zeke--the way they love each other. See, I think that's what a hero is--someone who see what's right and does what's right even when everyone else around is wrong, and someone who inspires other people to do better.

But, and this is a key point, Azzarello's changing of Wonder Woman's birth story is not rooted in any philosophy. It happens simply because the story as written cannot work unless Wonder Woman is a blood relative of Zeus. This does, however, change the story at a meta level.

It's not overt propaganda for any philosophy, and Azz may not have had any systematic philosophy in mind. But I think part of his storytelling philosophy is that if you have a character which is very virtuous, she'll probably be more interested if she comes from a family background that isn't so virtuous. (I think he has pretty much said that, or something close to it, in interviews.) And behind that storytelling philosophy there are probably deeper philosophical beliefs--like, that we're responsible for defining or redefining ourselves through our choices, no matter what our backgrounds may be.

Now you could argue that the altered message of the heroes story is as valuable as previously, but you cant honestly say it is the same.

I wouldn't say it's the same. I think the parts I care most about--for example, the idea that love can be more powerful than sheer force--are still there. But every time you change the story--whether you're Kanigher or Perez or Azzarello--you change the meaning in some ways. Some of these changes may make the story more current. For instance, in the 1940s, the idea that a woman could stand out as an individual if she didn't have a father was probably progressive and feminist. In 2014, most progressives and feminists in most of the places where Wonder Woman is read probably believe that a woman can stand out an individual even if she has a very powerful father.

[brettc1]

....Are you.....putting Hyppolita having sex with a married man on the same level as the raids? Because that was what we were talking about.
And if anything, I find Hypolita much more likable now. Not that likable is the same as inspiring.

It is almost impossible to believe that Hippolyta could be Queen of the Amazons for centuries and have no knowledge of what went on in the raids. That makes her, if not directly culpable, then at the very least an accessory after the fact. Sanctioning the murder of innocent men is an act of barbarity, and if anyone wants to debate modern vs ancient morals then I would venture to say that Diana would agree with me in any century.

Plus - according to Hermes story in issue 2 Hippolyta could not have children because she was incapable of conceiving. How would that be known if she had not had sex with a man. It's possible she learned this before coming to the island, but equally possible she learned it after a few acts of piracy did not produce a child.

[brettc1]

If a young child asked me that, I'd probably try to change the subject. This story wasn't meant for children.

And this right here is why I take my son to see the Marvel movies like Avengers and Captain America, and I don't take him to see the DC contributions like Man of Steel. Because children and adults should both be able to enjoy super-heroes.

[Gaelforce]

....Are you.....putting Hyppolita having sex with a married man on the same level as the raids? Because that was what we were talking about.
And if anything, I find Hypolita much more likable now. Not that likable is the same as inspiring.

Absolutely not.

However, it is the cumulative effect on the history of the character - a lying adulteress of a mother who oversaw/condoned/possibly participated in the seduction and murder of innocents that just rips the entire fabric of Wonder Woman's history to shreds.

It went way too far, in my opinion.

If a young child asked me that, I'd probably try to change the subject. This story wasn't meant for children.

And therein lies the biggest problem of all. This is a character for all ages, just as Batman and Superman and the Justice League. If you cannot tell the origin of this character to a child, then something very valuable has been irrevocably lost.

Superhero origins should be for everyone. 'A super soldier from WWII who was frozen in a block of ice,' 'A boy who lost his parents and grew up to make sure that never happens to anyone again,' 'a faraway planet was destroyed but this baby survived to become the world's greatest hero', 'a scientist in a lab was struck by lightning and chemicals and can now run super fast.'

All of these are suitable for all ages.

But 'her mother slept with a married god and then had to hide her away so the god's jealous wife wouldn't kill her' just doesn't work in that regard.