Superman vs a D&D character

[Zagreus]

The battle is a standard morals off arena battle vs. Superman (DCEU version).

The second battle is one vs. the current comics version.

Said (hypothetical) D&D character is 20th level with equipment commesurate with what is standard for a 20th level PC. If that isn't enough, boost them to 25th if the system allows (or give them 5 Mythic levels if using Pathfinder). The D&D character can be any edition you are familar with in your theorycrafting (including Pathfinder) (B/X through 5th ed.) Note: The hypothetical D&D character cannot be "broken" using loopholes any reasonable GM would disallow. (No PunPun for those who are familiar). It can be a min maxed or powerful character (and probably should be) but nothing that couldn't be used at a table.


Bonus Scenario: Give Superman and the D&D character 1 week prep prior to the Battle.

Can a D&D character defeat the Man of Steel? If so, what does it take?

[Sharpandpointies]

This should be interesting. Remember no NLF’s!

DCEU probably going down hard, though.

[Captain Morgan]

EDIT: Ah, missed the DCEU thing. A lot of the same arguments apply, but I reckon his will save lacks the feats to be untouchable. He isn't near light, but he does operate on a level of speed that D&D doesn't.

The answers are gonna vary based on the version of Superman... But less than you'd think because most any versions is so much stronger and faster than D&D characters, and past a certain point it stops mattering by how much. So problems as I see them:

1) Speed blitz. Superman is gonna win initiative, and high level D&D is rocket tag. Supes can instantly pulp anything he hits. So how do you prevent that? There are spells like Ethereal Jaunt which would render the PC invulnerable (though that particular example severely limits their offensive options, and would arguably be a ring out.) Even Contingency might not be enough, because by feats I doubt that spell operates at near light speeds. I think you'd basically need to let the prep involve pre-casting such spells, and there's a fine line between "preparing for a fight" and "actively rigging the battlefield with metaphorical landmines." But the PC can't get touched.

2) Targeting. How do you hit someone who can move faster than you can see or even think? Who can snipe you from the moon?

3) Saving throws. Yes, Superman is as vulnerable to some magic as any normal person. However, most spells allow normal people a chance to resist them based on their fortitude, will, or reflexes. Superman is superhuman across three categories. Even will, which you'd expect to be his weakest save. Dude has one of the strongest will powers in his universe. The spells that don't have saving throws often have a hit dice or CR cap, and Superman's HP pool would be enormous.

Most solutions I'm thinking of involve giving the D&D character one sided prep, attacking from surprise, or some other form of unfair advantage, and I still haven't thought of a winning strategy. There are a few things that might do it but they rely on game conceits that don't really exist in the arena, like a Diviner using an ability to substitute a natural 1 for Clark's saving throw, and a nat 1 auto failing despite the math involved. I don't think that counts.

[The MunchKING]

This should be interesting. Remember no NLF’s!

DCEU probably going down hard, though.

DCEU is Man of steel Superman right? He's still pretty good at moving at Superspeed when he wants to fight, so unless the D&D guy has some kind of MunchKING-esque power to make Superman fight using D&D rules, the guy who flies around doing multiple things a second is better than the guy who gets maybe 4 good hits in per 6 seconds.

[Vakanai]

I'm going to give this to D&D character if only because I see Superman getting frustrated over how long it takes to do a D&D fight. Swear to god I've seen fights that in game took under a minute but took well over an hour to get through irl. Cavill Clark ain't got time for that ****, he's got a job and a girlfriend and a superheroing hobby, he's gotta go do other things.

[Sharpandpointies]

DCEU is Man of steel Superman right? He's still pretty good at moving at Superspeed when he wants to fight, so unless the D&D guy has some kind of MunchKING-esque power to make Superman fight using D&D rules, the guy who flies around doing multiple things a second is better than the guy who gets maybe 4 good hits in per 6 seconds.

I'm thinking more about the magic and so forth, not the fighter-type.

D&D fighting IS an abstraction, so the idea that in reality a D&D 20th level, superhuman fighter can only get in four good attacks in six seconds is somewhat ridiculous. *I* can do that, with ease.

Not even touching AD&D and 2e's 'attacks versus zero level opponents'. ^_^

Either way, there's no question that even DCEU Clark is just too fast, which is why I'm more thinking about 'mage, one week prep' for that win.

[Zagreus]

This should be interesting. Remember no NLF’s!

DCEU probably going down hard, though.

That's my take as well. I think I could build something that could deal with DCEU Supes... It would have to be a high level caster playing around with Contingency, Time Stop, and maybe a few swift action mind effecting spells.

Comic supes, I'm not nearly as sure about.

[Sharpandpointies]

Would be a whole lot easier with a level 20 Anima character…. ;)

[Captain Morgan]

That's my take as well. I think I could build something that could deal with DCEU Supes... It would have to be a high level caster playing around with Contingency, Time Stop, and maybe a few swift action mind effecting spells.

Comic supes, I'm not nearly as sure about.

The issue as I see it is we don't have any concrete idea of how fast s contingency can trigger and activate a spell, where Clark is so fast even extremely high end bullet timers are almost statues.

I haven't seen the justice league movie. He's briefly kind controlled in that, right?

[The MunchKING]

I'm thinking more about the magic and so forth, not the fighter-type.

D&D fighting IS an abstraction, so the idea that in reality a D&D 20th level, superhuman fighter can only get in four good attacks in six seconds is somewhat ridiculous. *I* can do that, with ease.

4 GOOD Hits that could kill someone? nBecause the general abstraction is that there's a lot of the actual fighting that's blocked, dodged, parried or whatever to make the fight scene more dramatic, and there's only a few chances to get good solid hits that penetrate their armor or whatever.

Either way, there's no question that even DCEU Clark is just too fast, which is why I'm more thinking about 'mage, one week prep' for that win.

Depends on how many spells they are allowed to cast before the bell, but most of the stuff I can think of is still the better part of 6 seconds to cast, so if he can't kill Clark before the bell, one good hit from Sperman will ring the mage's bell something fierce.

[Sharpandpointies]

4 GOOD Hits that could kill someone? nBecause the general abstraction is that there's a lot of the actual fighting that's blocked, dodged, parried or whatever to make the fight scene more dramatic, and there's only a few chances to get good solid hits that penetrate their armor or whatever.

Four good hits that could cut someone, depending on whether or not they defend. Which is where the whole thing breaks down for D&D.

As you note, the abstraction involves the ability of the other person to block/parry/dodge - actually, less dodging because that's Dex armor class bonus/whatever and only 'let through' X number of attacks (which then have to defeat the armor). When looked at from a realistic standpoint is ridiculous. It's giving the same rough defensive ability to a first level person as it does to a 20th level person.

Check it out. I don't know how many attacks a level 20 character gets in whatever edition of D&D, but let's go with your 'four'.

Level 20 person attacks a level 1 person - say a Wizard armed with a dagger. Level 20 person gets four attacks that get through the dodging, blocking and so forth and need to deal with armor.

Level 20 person attacks a level 3 person. Same deal.

Level 20 person attacks a level 20 person. Same deal.

So basically, the abstraction assumes that everyone has the same defensive skill, that only four attacks get through the parrying and so forth of a 1st level wizard OR another 20th level fighter? Ugh. This is why game rules do NOT translate, and the level 20 fighter should be getting a hellacious number of attacks, realistically speaking.

Yes, it's more complicated that than when we get into feats and such, but the base idea is still there.

At least AD&D and 2e allowed for the 20th level fighter to have 20 attacks against zero level creatures. But still....

Depends on how many spells they are allowed to cast before the bell, but most of the stuff I can think of is still the better part of 6 seconds to cast, so if he can't kill Clark before the bell, one good hit from Sperman will ring the mage's bell something fierce.

It's a week of prep, I'm pretty sure they can have some stuff up and running. Even if it's stuff that makes them impossible to hit by physical attacks (aren't there intangibility spells and such? I can't remember these days).

[Sharpandpointies]

The issue as I see it is we don't have any concrete idea of how fast s contingency can trigger and activate a spell, where Clark is so fast even extremely high end bullet timers are almost statues.

I haven't seen the justice league movie. He's briefly kind controlled in that, right?

Old school contingency triggered in response to something happening, 'something happening' could be stuff like 'he throws lightning at me'. So it was plenty fast, and could probably be argued that if it's set for 'when the match starts' (if that's possible) then it just flat-out goes off right then and there.

Don't know how contingency works in the newer editions. :P

[Zagreus]

The issue as I see it is we don't have any concrete idea of how fast s contingency can trigger and activate a spell, where Clark is so fast even extremely high end bullet timers are almost statues.

I haven't seen the justice league movie. He's briefly kind controlled in that, right?

I just looked up two versions of contingency (two editions) and they both say the spell that is triggered by contingency takes place "immediately". Whatever that means when dealing with someone with superspeed though is anyone's guess. The max a Contingency can trigger is a 6th level spell, so it's not like a mage could do "Contingency, Time Stop", but lots of other effects are possible.

Edit: ninja'ed by Sharp.

[Captain Morgan]

Lightning bolt is a pretty good point. Of reference there, I'll give you.

[The MunchKING]

Actually I just thought of something. MoS Superman had Superhearing, but I don't remember any good feats of seeing or smelling the invisible. So Ring of Invisibility. If a fighter or Rougue you need to stack as many buffs to stealth as you can and hope he doesn't pick your sound out from all the others. For a caster class, Silent Spell, Still Spell, etc. Sure that caps you at 7th level spells unless you are Epic enough to have the extra spell slots, but if Superman just stands around looking confused you could get some actual action in.