View Poll Results: Does Circe works as a villain or neutral figure?

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  • Villain

    16 55.17%
  • Neutral

    5 17.24%
  • Either works

    8 27.59%
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  1. #16
    Ultimate Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PopQuezy View Post
    Personally, I think this is a distinction without a difference. The Justice League Dark saga shows Circe working with Diana and the team to help them defeat Hecate while having her own agenda the entire time. She then positions herself as the main villain of the narrative. To me, that simply showcases Circe's immense intelligence and cunning.

    While I'm not necessarily the biggest fan of Circe's Rucka-inspired Dr. Who ( to borrow from Mel Dyer) Circe, I do think Circe's ever-changing looks play into the way Circe can always position herself in a beneficial position. I also think being a woman allows her to play into gender politics in a way that allows people to be more trusting of her seeming "neutrality" or "allyship," which she then leverages to gain something - usually sinister - from any partnership she has with Diana or any hero.

    I never want to see Circe be "good" or even "neutral" for the greater good. Even her "neutral" appearances should simply be because she has something nefarious up her sleeves and is just waiting for the most opportune time to strike.

    To build on this question - with the seeming Injustice 3 around the corner - would anyone like to see Circe as the Big Bad of that game?
    Bold to assume the knuckle-draggers behind the Injustice franchise would give Diana or her world much thought by making one of her rogues the big bad. I think the people involved in that franchise (Taylor-written comics included) stop thinking about WW once she stops servicing Batman and Superman's character arcs.
    Last edited by Gaius; 08-19-2021 at 08:23 AM.

  2. #17
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
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    My choice here would be as neutral when viewed from Wonder Woman, but a villain when viewed from most other characters. I believe that would be the best way to take advantage of the mythical Circe and the many long discussions and re-interpretations of her character, and also to look at both them and the role of other evil witches in myth and fiction.

    She should be mercurial and passionate, an exile who longs for company but her experience and passion make her too quick to anger.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  3. #18
    Mighty Member HestiasHearth's Avatar
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    100 % villain. Same with Ares and Cheetah.

  4. #19
    They LAUGHED at my theory SteveGus's Avatar
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    Always wondered why they didn't use Medea as the villain. Circe might be redeemable. A lot harder sell with Medea.
    "At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison

  5. #20
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    She's a villain who fancies herself neutral. The world's sense of morality has shifted from when she was prominent and I don't see her as the kind to adapt to the whims of us mortals.
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  6. #21
    Ultimate Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    My choice here would be as neutral when viewed from Wonder Woman, but a villain when viewed from most other characters. I believe that would be the best way to take advantage of the mythical Circe and the many long discussions and re-interpretations of her character, and also to look at both them and the role of other evil witches in myth and fiction.

    She should be mercurial and passionate, an exile who longs for company but her experience and passion make her too quick to anger.
    Yeah she had several facets in the myths. jilted lover, exiled princess... etc... Which is why I liked the Lyta thing so much

  7. #22
    The Last Dragon Perseus's Avatar
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    Villainous but sympathetic. I once said that Circe is a lot like Cersei from Game of Thrones once you take away the over the top silliness she sometimes has. Her love for Lyta is the biggest point for her sympathy, everyone can empathize with a mother longing to protect her child, even in Circe's own way.

    Cersei is quite possible one of the best written villains in modern times. The show actually does a better job at making you sympathize with her than the books, mainly do to Lena Headey as an actress. However as a book reader I know her ark will be better handled and completed than in the show.

    Cersei is selfish and self-serving, ambitious, and cunning. She is greedy and wants power. Believing herself to be subtle and politically intelligent, she is often scheming from behind the shadows to further her power ambitions. She hates the customs placed on her due to her gender, at times wishing she was born a man, and feels slighted if her orders are ignored. Yet she thrives under her position as queen and looks down at other women, like Margery Tyrell, who would threaten what power Cersei has. She was forced into a marriage with Robert Baratheon, a man known for his alcoholism and constant adultery, for political gain and maintained that "relationship" as long as she need to until she saw an opportunity to be rid of him. Her philosophy of "The more people you love the weaker you are. You do things for them that you would never do for anyone else, you play the fool to make them happy. Love no one but your children, on that front a mother has no choice." plays a massive role in her sympathy angle. She only loves her children, however that love is really from a narcissistic point of view in that her children are extensions of her. She coddles them, even promotes their worst/psychopathy tendencies because she believe that she can do no wrong and there for her children can't either. I've read several posts from other fans that say she is all 7 sins wrapped up into one person. She is impatient and views caution as cowardly and disagreement as defiance. She knows who to manipulate and control, to a point, this again is hindered by her narcissism. Her father, Tywin, has told her "I don't mistrust you because you are a woman, I mistrust you because you're not as smart as you think you are." She truly believes that she is greater and more cunning than anyone else and can play politics just as good as someone like her father or younger brother. There are so many layers and complexities to her as a character that its hard to narrow down one reason why I think she is a great villain template to look at for a modern Circe in the Wondermythos.

    "When you play the Game of Thrones you win or you die, there is no middle ground." Cersei Lannister to Ned Stark

    witch.jpg

    Give Cersei dark purple hair and limitless magic and you get Circe
    Zaldrīzes Buzdari Iksos Daor

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by masterwitcher88 View Post
    Villainous but sympathetic. I once said that Circe is a lot like Cersei from Game of Thrones once you take away the over the top silliness she sometimes has. Her love for Lyta is the biggest point for her sympathy, everyone can empathize with a mother longing to protect her child, even in Circe's own way.

    Cersei is quite possible one of the best written villains in modern times. The show actually does a better job at making you sympathize with her than the books, mainly do to Lena Headey as an actress. However as a book reader I know her ark will be better handled and completed than in the show.

    Cersei is selfish and self-serving, ambitious, and cunning. She is greedy and wants power. Believing herself to be subtle and politically intelligent, she is often scheming from behind the shadows to further her power ambitions. She hates the customs placed on her due to her gender, at times wishing she was born a man, and feels slighted if her orders are ignored. Yet she thrives under her position as queen and looks down at other women, like Margery Tyrell, who would threaten what power Cersei has. She was forced into a marriage with Robert Baratheon, a man known for his alcoholism and constant adultery, for political gain and maintained that "relationship" as long as she need to until she saw an opportunity to be rid of him. Her philosophy of "The more people you love the weaker you are. You do things for them that you would never do for anyone else, you play the fool to make them happy. Love no one but your children, on that front a mother has no choice." plays a massive role in her sympathy angle. She only loves her children, however that love is really from a narcissistic point of view in that her children are extensions of her. She coddles them, even promotes their worst/psychopathy tendencies because she believe that she can do no wrong and there for her children can't either. I've read several posts from other fans that say she is all 7 sins wrapped up into one person. She is impatient and views caution as cowardly and disagreement as defiance. She knows who to manipulate and control, to a point, this again is hindered by her narcissism. Her father, Tywin, has told her "I don't mistrust you because you are a woman, I mistrust you because you're not as smart as you think you are." She truly believes that she is greater and more cunning than anyone else and can play politics just as good as someone like her father or younger brother. There are so many layers and complexities to her as a character that its hard to narrow down one reason why I think she is a great villain template to look at for a modern Circe in the Wondermythos.

    "When you play the Game of Thrones you win or you die, there is no middle ground." Cersei Lannister to Ned Stark

    Give Cersei dark purple hair and limitless magic and you get Circe
    I know people love Cersei, but I honestly don't get the Circe/Cersei comparison. In general, I thought Cersei came off as not particularly clever, toothless, and too dependent on others for her best schemes to come to fruition. I also hated Cersei's relationship with her children, and I was never sad when any of them died, nor did I feel much sympathy for Cersei.

    Circe is conniving, intelligent, selfish, and I much prefer she not have children in universe again.

    I think Lena Headly is a great actress, but I hope she never plays Circe.

  9. #24
    The Last Dragon Perseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PopQuezy View Post
    I know people love Cersei, but I honestly don't get the Circe/Cersei comparison. In general, I thought Cersei came off as not particularly clever, toothless, and too dependent on others for her best schemes to come to fruition. I also hated Cersei's relationship with her children, and I was never sad when any of them died, nor did I feel much sympathy for Cersei.

    Circe is conniving, intelligent, selfish, and I much prefer she not have children in universe again.

    I think Lena Headly is a great actress, but I hope she never plays Circe.
    I did mention she was clever to a point and that its partly due to her narcissism. Circe doesn't need other people to get what she wants, but manipulation and using minions is part over her MO. Cersei is described by Tyrion as "using honest feelings to do dishonest work". They are both liars, telling their enemies half truths to inch closer to their desires.

    Cersei's relationship with her children ultimately comes back to the fact that they are extensions of herself. She loves them because to her they are her. Its not healthy, she smothers them and ignores their behavior, its worse with Joffery in the books btw, but in the show she did somehow she does genuinely love them, part of her character is gaining power to protect them. all of this is because of the belief in a prophecy she got from a witch when she was like 10. There is also her abuse from Robert and his continuous adultery and her father using her as a tool to further his goal of just buying Westeros with marriages. My empathy only goes so far, I understand why she does what she does, but she's still a monster a very well written monster.

    Circe can be a good mother, my comparison wasn't a 100% match and I'd never want it to be. I just see a lot of these parallels between their personalities and just think that its kind of an amazing match for what it is.
    Zaldrīzes Buzdari Iksos Daor

  10. #25
    Astonishing Member WonderScott's Avatar
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    Either for me, with a small lead in villainy. Mostly, because I think Circe does what she wants and doesn’t necessarily care about how she affects others… quite literally in the case of her beastiamorphs.

  11. #26
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Yeah, I always thought Cersei was an excellent example of someone incompetent riding on the coattails of everyone else's success. She literally made everything she touched turn to ****. She was someone who drank her own Kool-Aid. She failed as a monarch. She failed as a mother. She failed spectacularly as a human being. Just what exactly was Cersei good at except manipulating other people to die instead of her? I don't want to even measure that as a success because it included people she didn't intend to die like her children, who she begrudgingly did love.

    Not how I see Circe. She's far too good at what she does to be brought down to Cersei's level... at just about everything.
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  12. #27
    The Last Dragon Perseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Yeah, I always thought Cersei was an excellent example of someone incompetent riding on the coattails of everyone else's success. She literally made everything she touched turn to ****. She was someone who drank her own Kool-Aid. She failed as a monarch. She failed as a mother. She failed spectacularly as a human being. Just what exactly was Cersei good at except manipulating other people to die instead of her? I don't want to even measure that as a success because it included people she didn't intend to die like her children, who she begrudgingly did love.

    Not how I see Circe. She's far too good at what she does to be brought down to Cersei's level... at just about everything.
    You do realize that Diana needs to conceivably win against Circe right? Like if Circe was that smart and powerful she'd be ruling the universe by now and the excuse of "she doesn't care" isn't always interesting. I mean, I'd love a story where she does beat everyone and decides not to rule because she found it dull, but only once.

    But would you actually consider Circe to be a good parent? The woman that wanted her child to be treated as above everyone else due to her status and wanted to smother her with gifts and praise... sounds like Cersei to me. She's not as bad, but saying she's better doesn't make her good. Same with being a monarch and a human being. She is a villain after all. And how many of Circe's plots actually worked to completion, 1 maybe 2?

    I'll agree fully that Circe should be "better" then Cersei, but that's subjective given both their reputations.
    Zaldrīzes Buzdari Iksos Daor

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by masterwitcher88 View Post
    You do realize that Diana needs to conceivably win against Circe right? Like if Circe was that smart and powerful she'd be ruling the universe by now and the excuse of "she doesn't care" isn't always interesting. I mean, I'd love a story where she does beat everyone and decides not to rule because she found it dull, but only once.
    Circe being smart and powerful doesn't mean she can't be beaten or lacks weaknesses.


    But would you actually consider Circe to be a good parent? The woman that wanted her child to be treated as above everyone else due to her status and wanted to smother her with gifts and praise... sounds like Cersei to me. She's not as bad, but saying she's better doesn't make her good. Same with being a monarch and a human being. She is a villain after all. And how many of Circe's plots actually worked to completion, 1 maybe 2?
    I'll say that Circe and Cersei are as good as parents as you can expect of supervillains.

  14. #29
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by masterwitcher88 View Post
    You do realize that Diana needs to conceivably win against Circe right? Like if Circe was that smart and powerful she'd be ruling the universe by now and the excuse of "she doesn't care" isn't always interesting. I mean, I'd love a story where she does beat everyone and decides not to rule because she found it dull, but only once.

    But would you actually consider Circe to be a good parent? The woman that wanted her child to be treated as above everyone else due to her status and wanted to smother her with gifts and praise... sounds like Cersei to me. She's not as bad, but saying she's better doesn't make her good. Same with being a monarch and a human being. She is a villain after all. And how many of Circe's plots actually worked to completion, 1 maybe 2?

    I'll agree fully that Circe should be "better" then Cersei, but that's subjective given both their reputations.
    I expect Circe to be excellent at what she does in a vacuum and that Diana is the agent that causes her ruin. Cersei would lose a game of 52 Card pickup she forced herself to play to completion.

    I don't think Circe is a "good" parent, but she does well enough but to get her kid killed nor orchestrate her death. She's not a complete piece of **** like Cersei, at least in my reading.

    Cersei Lannister was so comically evil and in over her head she was always a beard away from being Bluto from Popeye.

    Circe, like any good rogue, would achieve her goals if our hero wasn't her opposite number. Much like how Lex would covertly rule the Earth were it not for Superman. That's the only reason she's thwarted like Cersei is, but unlike Cersei, she wouldn't cause her own destruction by being a textbook example of Dunning-Krueger.
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  15. #30
    The Last Dragon Perseus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Circe being smart and powerful doesn't mean she can't be beaten or lacks weaknesses.




    I'll say that Circe and Cersei are as good as parents as you can expect of supervillains.
    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    I expect Circe to be excellent at what she does in a vacuum and that Diana is the agent that causes her ruin. Cersei would lose a game of 52 Card pickup she forced herself to play to completion.

    I don't think Circe is a "good" parent, but she does well enough but to get her kid killed nor orchestrate her death. She's not a complete piece of **** like Cersei, at least in my reading.

    Cersei Lannister was so comically evil and in over her head she was always a beard away from being Bluto from Popeye.

    Circe, like any good rogue, would achieve her goals if our hero wasn't her opposite number. Much like how Lex would covertly rule the Earth were it not for Superman. That's the only reason she's thwarted like Cersei is, but unlike Cersei, she wouldn't cause her own destruction by being a textbook example of Dunning-Krueger.
    Fair enough, like I said Circe is definitive more intelligent and cunning then Cersei, I just find their respective personalities and goals and interests to be some what aligned.
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