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  1. #31
    Cosmic Curmudgeon JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    Each Eternal was meant to represent a member of mythology primarily the Greek panthenon- Zuras- Zeus, Thena- Athena, Sersi- Circe, Makkari- Mercury e.t.c. That's why there was the weirdness when the met the gods of olympus and looked almost exactly like some of them.
    100% True.

    But this was also one of the problems with Kirby's origin for the Eternals, because there were civilizations that pre-date the Greeks and Romans. Indeed, some of the Greco-Roman gods are derivative of other gods worshipped in other regions. In order for the Celestials to have experimented at the "dawn of humanity", the timeline simply doesn't work. The Eternals that we know today would have needed to be the distant ancestors of the proto-humans that the Celestials experimented on AND there's no way that the vast majority of the Eternals would look like Greeks or Romans. The only way that Kirby's origin works is if there are hidden tribes of Eternals hailing from other continents, perhaps existing like the gods themselves in dimensions adjacent to Earth's. As depicted, the Eternals population demographics doesn't seem to speak to that at all, unfortunately.

  2. #32
    Extraordinary Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Calling Ikaris Superman analogue because they can both fly and shoot eye beams feels superficials. If Cyclops could fly and shoot eye beams would he be a Superman analogue too?

    The Superman analogue in Marvel is Captain America. He's the closest to Superman in terms of heart, morality and being the moral center of the universe. So no, Ikaris is not the first Superman analogue in the MCU. It's Cap and in terms of power, Thor, CM and Vision predates Ikaris.

    Superman was the first superhero*, literally every superhero is a subversion, deconstruction or remix of the formula he created.

    *yes, there were a couple of similar ones before he debuted, don't @ me. Supes still the one who popularized it.

  3. #33
    Invincible Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Yeah, Superman is the reason superheroes are CALLED superheroes!
    Appreciation Thread Indexes
    Marvel | Spider-Man | X-Men | NEW!! DC Comics | Batman | Superman | Wonder Woman

  4. #34
    Superman and Wonder Woman
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudicatorPrime View Post
    100% True.

    But this was also one of the problems with Kirby's origin for the Eternals, because there were civilizations that pre-date the Greeks and Romans. Indeed, some of the Greco-Roman gods are derivative of other gods worshipped in other regions. In order for the Celestials to have experimented at the "dawn of humanity", the timeline simply doesn't work. The Eternals that we know today would have needed to be the distant ancestors of the proto-humans that the Celestials experimented on AND there's no way that the vast majority of the Eternals would look like Greeks or Romans. The only way that Kirby's origin works is if there are hidden tribes of Eternals hailing from other continents, perhaps existing like the gods themselves in dimensions adjacent to Earth's. As depicted, the Eternals population demographics doesn't seem to speak to that at all, unfortunately.
    You know they are all over the Earth, right? The whole point is comparative mythology with the Eternals, Celestials, and Deviants interacting with humanity. Kirby made it clear that these are their actual names they've had, just misspelled by humans. I don't know if you read Kirby's book, but it made perfect sense. They' been interacting with humanity since the beginning. Think Ancient Aliens (TV show), but it's the Eternals and Deviants. In the original book, we could probably conclude they built the pyramids. I think Kirby used Greek mythology for 1) most readers was probably familiar to those stories already. 2) Kirby wanted to use Greek myths because they are the most famous of all mythological stories. Just because Zuras, Thena, Merkkari, Ikaris, etc., are taken from Greek/Roman, doesn't mean the rest are. They exist in Asia, Africa, etc. They were all over the place. Th story does start off in South America after all.

    You defeat the purpose if there are ancestors and hidden tribes.

    I just wanted to add: The Eternals (1976) doesn't mesh with the Marvel Universe. The Eternals shouldn't exist alongside Thor Odinson or other Gods. You strip the story of it's most important aspect. The Eternals are the Gods, but they themselves never saw it that way.
    Last edited by DABellWrites; 09-12-2021 at 03:37 PM.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    Calling Ikaris Superman analogue because they can both fly and shoot eye beams feels superficials. If Cyclops could fly and shoot eye beams would he be a Superman analogue too?

    The Superman analogue in Marvel is Captain America. He's the closest to Superman in terms of heart, morality and being the moral center of the universe. So no, Ikaris is not the first Superman analogue in the MCU. It's Cap and in terms of power, Thor, CM and Vision predates Ikaris.

    Superman was the first superhero*, literally every superhero is a subversion, deconstruction or remix of the formula he created.

    *yes, there were a couple of similar ones before he debuted, don't @ me. Supes still the one who popularized it.
    With having a love interest and dual identity, I would agree they followed Superman. However, characters like Wonder Woman didn't follow the whole Superman-format. So, I don't see the where Superman had any influence there.

  6. #36
    Extraordinary Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Golden Age Wonder Woman had a secret identity, love interest, super strength, speed, may/may not fly, dresses in red, white and blue. Definitely drew inspiration from Superman as much as Greek myths.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    Golden Age Wonder Woman had a secret identity, love interest, super strength, speed, may/may not fly, dresses in red, white and blue. Definitely drew inspiration from Superman as much as Greek myths.
    I meant storytelling. She didn't really follow the whole crusader against the corrupt like how many of them did.

  8. #38
    Cosmic Curmudgeon JudicatorPrime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DABellWrites View Post
    You know they are all over the Earth, right? The whole point is comparative mythology with the Eternals, Celestials, and Deviants interacting with humanity. Kirby made it clear that these are their actual names they've had, just misspelled by humans. I don't know if you read Kirby's book, but it made perfect sense. They' been interacting with humanity since the beginning. Think Ancient Aliens (TV show), but it's the Eternals and Deviants. In the original book, we could probably conclude they built the pyramids. I think Kirby used Greek mythology for 1) most readers was probably familiar to those stories already. 2) Kirby wanted to use Greek myths because they are the most famous of all mythological stories. Just because Zuras, Thena, Merkkari, Ikaris, etc., are taken from Greek/Roman, doesn't mean the rest are. They exist in Asia, Africa, etc. They were all over the place. Th story does start off in South America after all.

    You defeat the purpose if there are ancestors and hidden tribes.

    I just wanted to add: The Eternals (1976) doesn't mesh with the Marvel Universe. The Eternals shouldn't exist alongside Thor Odinson or other Gods. You strip the story of it's most important aspect. The Eternals are the Gods, but they themselves never saw it that way.
    Yes, I collected the original Kirby series back in the day, and I also owned some of the What If? comics which provided supplemental stories of the Eternals' origin. I liked the concept, but that didn't make it any less problematic for me ... unless we're completely agnostic about the actual history and development of civilizations, which Kirby sought to mirror.

    But I get it: Not many will recognize, or even care that the row doesn't foot. "Close enough" is often "good enough" for the general public.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudicatorPrime View Post
    Yes, I collected the original Kirby series back in the day, and I also owned some of the What If? comics which provided supplemental stories of the Eternals' origin. I liked the concept, but that didn't make it any less problematic for me ... unless we're completely agnostic about the actual history and development of civilizations, which Kirby sought to mirror.

    But I get it: Not many will recognize, or even care that the row doesn't foot. "Close enough" is often "good enough" for the general public.
    Kirby definitely took some creative licenses with world history. I get it, it does seem like the Eternals started in started in Greek civilization. I'm taking a guess on why Kirby did it. I don't have any concrete reason, his decisions can sometimes be understood by him.

  10. #40
    Astonishing Member Johnny Thunders!'s Avatar
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    I love how Kirby uses Native influences with his Eternals designs. Ikaris and some of the Celestials especially. The Celestials remind me of Kachina dolls.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Thunders! View Post
    I love how Kirby uses Native influences with his Eternals designs. Ikaris and some of the Celestials especially. The Celestials remind me of Kachina dolls.
    I remember seeing on the classiccomicsfourm a drawing of the Roman army and being blown away by the detail. You can tell he did his research.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudicatorPrime View Post
    Yes, several Eternals can expel energy optically. But as with other Eternal skills, energy projection is a discipline that has to be learned. Not all Eternals have the same mastery or even the same aptitude. At least I think that's the distinction that Kirby originally intended to diversify the group. It's why not everyone will reach Sersi's level when it comes to molecular manipulation, Thanos or Gilgamesh level strength, or Makkari's level in terms of speed.
    Yeah, they can all project energy from their hands or eyes, but it's a 5 pt. ranking scale, and Ikaris is the only 'level 5' energy projector of the bunch, other than the current Prime Eternal (formerly Zuras, later Thena, who was 'only rank 4' before becoming Prime Eternal).

    Ikaris has been flying and shooting red eyebeams since 1976. That may seem 'Superman-clone,' but he's been around a heck of a lot longer than most of these dudes like Omni-Man, Icon or the Sentry, and has a plethora of powers totally unrelated to Superman (teleportation, limited shapeshifting, telepathy, telekinesis, rearrange molecules to change his clothes, etc.), and is several orders of magnitude less strong and fast (Kal is just ridiculously stronger and faster, Ikaris can lift 40 tons and fly at 500 MPH, IIRC, which is hot stuff, but nowhere near Superman's weight class).

  13. #43
    Ultimate Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    Golden Age Wonder Woman had a secret identity, love interest, super strength, speed, may/may not fly, dresses in red, white and blue. Definitely drew inspiration from Superman as much as Greek myths.
    Marston was even going to call her “Superbia” iirc, but he wanted her to stand more on her own and not become a satellite character of Clark’s.
    For when my rants on the forums just arenít enough: https://thevindicativevordan.tumblr.com/

  14. #44
    Ultimate Member Last Son of Krypton's Avatar
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    Superman reference in the last Eternals spot, lol:



    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Marston was even going to call her “Superbia” iirc, but he wanted her to stand more on her own and not become a satellite character of Clark’s.
    "Suprema"

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