Ultra Instinct Goku VS Ultra Ego Vegeta

[Cody]

Only Beerus is stronger than Granolah, Goku, and Vegeta. As stated in the story and by WoG, Granolah is the strongest mortal in the universe with Goku and Vegeta being second or third, so they're stronger than Broly. Even before Granolah was revealed both Goku and Whis believed that no mortal in the universe was stronger than Goku and Vegeta. Vegeta's standing was before UE was revealed so even without it he was already considered at PUI Goku's level. Since Granolah is stronger than PUI Goku and UE Vegeta was able to dominate Granolah and force him to get stronger than makes UE Vegeta stronger than PUI Goku. Jiren was at best equal to ToP PUI, and Goku made the form even stronger in the Moro and Granolah arcs.

Nope on all accounts. It was made clear Goku surpassed the G.O.D the moment he obtained MUI and overpowered Jiren, someone stated outright to be stronger than a G.O.D.

No W.O.G ever stated Gran was the strongest, only he himself made this claim and he was wrong, and Broly is stronger than them, as blatantly made clear in the movie like what?

Goku never made the form stronger, he just learned how to use it on the fly. Mui casually stomped Gran when he was using half his power, while his full power was still able to go toe to toe with G.O.D Vegeta and do damage. Nothing to suggest a 100% Gran would have done better against a MUI Goku that took apart his 50% so effortlessly.

[Cody]

As Vegeta said the clone's power didn't decrease that much from PUI Goku's attacks, and Goku did say that Granolah was forcing him to settle it for real so I doubt he was holding back that much and if he was holding back then it makes it even more pathetic that PUI's accuracy decreased so fast even though he was dominating the clone. It doesn't bode well for his chances against a full power Granolah and UE Vegeta unless PUI gets an upgrade on its next appearance. UE Vegeta will have no problem hitting PUI Goku when full power Granolah blitzed Goku while he had to get even stronger and bring out his second eye to get the edge on UE Vegeta.

It's MUI not Pui, and again; wrong. By settle it for real he meant to activate MUI, which casually took Gran apart. To suggest a Gran that is 2x stronger than the one MUI Goku casually stomped would somehow made a difference is utter nonsense.

[big_adventure]

It's MUI not Pui, and again; wrong. By settle it for real he meant to activate MUI, which casually took Gran apart. To suggest a Gran that is 2x stronger than the one MUI Goku casually stomped would somehow made a difference is utter nonsense.

Actually it's exactly that. Granolah casually one-shot MUI once he stopped playing around. And that same form was worthless against UE Veggie. Utterly worthless.

[Saitou Hajime]

Nope on all accounts. It was made clear Goku surpassed the G.O.D the moment he obtained MUI and overpowered Jiren, someone stated outright to be stronger than a G.O.D.

No W.O.G ever stated Gran was the strongest, only he himself made this claim and he was wrong, and Broly is stronger than them, as blatantly made clear in the movie like what?

Goku never made the form stronger, he just learned how to use it on the fly. Mui casually stomped Gran when he was using half his power, while his full power was still able to go toe to toe with G.O.D Vegeta and do damage. Nothing to suggest a 100% Gran would have done better against a MUI Goku that took apart his 50% so effortlessly.

Toyo said in the recent interview that Granolah is the strongest in the universe, and that the current battle is between the top 3 strongest in the universe. This supports what Toyo wrote in the story itself, the dragon said he was going to make Granolah into the strongest mortal in the universe, and both Goku and Whis stated that there was no other mortal in the universe stronger than Goku and Vegeta before they learned of Granolah. Therefore all three are stronger than Broly.

Goku also hasn't surpassed Beerus yet according to Toyo. Beerus, Whis, and Grand Priest are cited by Toyo as examples of "a level of perfection beyond perfect" that Goku has yet to reach and should aspire to as he has more to grow even though he achieved "perfection" in the Moro arc. This is also supported by Toyo in the story as Vegeta is portrayed to rival Goku yet Vegeta got easily defeated by Beerus yet again, plus Beerus told Vegeta that mastering UE would allow him to surpass Goku.

Goku made PUI stable AND stronger. PUI's a limit breaker form so therefore it's strength raises as well when Goku's limits themselves increase. Goku during the fight with Moro is said to have gotten way stronger since the ToP even in just SSB and Toyo in the latest interview said that both Goku and Vegeta are even stronger now than when they fought Moro.

I don't know where you're getting 50% form, Granolah never cited an exact number for the amount of power he invested in the clone. It wouldn't make sense for him to invest that much anyway as he thought little of the Saiyans' power and was saving himself for Freeza.

If a clone with just a portion of his power was enough to reduce PUI's accuracy in a fight that was relatively quick, that Goku was dominating and even purportedly holding back in then it would deplete even quicker against a full power Granolah, much less a full power Granolah that got stronger as he fought and unveiled a second eye that would further expose PUI's weakpoints. Never mind that as Vegeta said, PUI Goku's attacks didn't even decrease the clone's power that much, thereby casting further doubt of its effectiveness against far stronger versions of Granolah.

[Saitou Hajime]

It's MUI not Pui, and again; wrong. By settle it for real he meant to activate MUI, which casually took Gran apart. To suggest a Gran that is 2x stronger than the one MUI Goku casually stomped would somehow made a difference is utter nonsense.

The official term is Perfected UI or PUI; "MUI" is a fan term. PUI was already activated when Goku said Granolah was forcing him to settle it for real, and if Goku was holding back then PUI's accuracy decreasing that fast in such a short time looks even worse. The amount of power Granolah invested in the clone was never stated. If PUI Goku's attacks could barely decrease the clone's power (as stated by Vegeta) and just that quick a fight where Goku was dominating was enough to decrease PUI's accuracy, then Goku is going to fare even worse against far stronger versions of Granola that has a second eye which can further expose PUI's weakpoints.

[Cody]

Actually it's exactly that. Granolah casually one-shot MUI once he stopped playing around. And that same form was worthless against UE Veggie. Utterly worthless.

Nope, as the scans I JUST provided showed; it was anything but. While Gokus attacks and speed were far superior, as the video I provided showed.

Seems like you are mostly on the Vegeta hype train here bud.

[Cody]

Toyo said in the recent interview that Granolah is the strongest in the universe,

He isn't Akira Toriyama so his opinion is worthless, and we don't go by author statements here.

and that the current battle is between the top 3 strongest in the universe. This supports what Toyo wrote in the story itself, the dragon said he was going to make Granolah into the strongest mortal in the universe, and both Goku and Whis stated that there was no other mortal in the universe stronger than Goku and Vegeta before they learned of Granolah. Therefore all three are stronger than Broly.

Only Goku is stronger via MUI/PUI, while the manga is going out of it's way not to spoil the movie. The dragon is weaker than Shenron and is hardly a great source, especially when the oracle fish was unsure if Granolah was even the one he foresaw(I'm assuming we are going to find out it's actually one of the henchmen of the crime lord Gran worked for).

Goku also hasn't surpassed Beerus yet according to Toyo.

Again; a fanfic writer is irrelevant, we SAW Goku surpass Beerus by beating someone who was explicitly stronger than him in the anime, and matching him in the manga.

Beerus, Whis, and Grand Priest are cited by Toyo as examples of "a level of perfection beyond perfect" that Goku has yet to reach and should aspire to as he has more to grow even though he achieved "perfection" in the Moro arc. This is also supported by Toyo in the story as Vegeta is portrayed to rival Goku yet Vegeta got easily defeated by Beerus yet again, plus Beerus told Vegeta that mastering UE would allow him to surpass Goku.

None of this is true dude. Vegeta was never portrayed as any form of rival to current Goku(until now). We know for a fact MUI Goku is superior not only due to the performance against Moro, but also against a guy explicitly stated and shown to be stronger than Beerus; Jiren. Toyo saying otherwise only shows yet again how bad of a writer he is when Akira isn't around to hold his hand. As he is not Akira Toriyama however(who worked on the show up till it finished) his opinion is worthless, and that is disregarding the fact that we don't go by author statements here.

Goku made PUI stable AND stronger.

Zero indication of the later.

PUI's a limit breaker form so therefore it's strength raises as well when Goku's limits themselves increase. Goku during the fight with Moro is said to have gotten way stronger since the ToP even in just SSB and Toyo in the latest interview said that both Goku and Vegeta are even stronger now than when they fought Moro.

Base power is increased yes, the form itself, no. It improves the more accurate it becomes, and Goku only recently learned to activate it on the fly, his fight with Gran showed he is just now focusing on improving it.

I don't know where you're getting 50% form, Granolah never cited an exact number for the amount of power he invested in the clone. It wouldn't make sense for him to invest that much anyway as he thought little of the Saiyans' power and was saving himself for Freeza.

That is what "splitting" usually means, you are splitting something in half, that and it is how all the similar techniques used by Piccolo, Tien, and Krillin worked before too.

If a clone with just a portion of his power was enough to reduce PUI's accuracy in a fight that was relatively quick, that Goku was dominating and even purportedly holding back in then it would deplete even quicker against a full power Granolah, much less a full power Granolah that got stronger as he fought and unveiled a second eye that would further expose PUI's weakpoints. Never mind that as Vegeta said, PUI Goku's attacks didn't even decrease the clone's power that much, thereby casting further doubt of its effectiveness against far stronger versions of Granolah.

The form itself loses accuracy over time, as the scan in my previous post stated. Granolah himself had nothing to do with it, and why would Grans power decrease? He used a clone while he sat back. The clone was beat down, but never exhausted much power.

The official term is Perfected UI or PUI; "MUI" is a fan term. PUI was already activated when Goku said Granolah was forcing him to settle it for real, and if Goku was holding back then PUI's accuracy decreasing that fast in such a short time looks even worse. The amount of power Granolah invested in the clone was never stated. If PUI Goku's attacks could barely decrease the clone's power (as stated by Vegeta) and just that quick a fight where Goku was dominating was enough to decrease PUI's accuracy, then Goku is going to fare even worse against far stronger versions of Granola that has a second eye which can further expose PUI's weakpoints.

The accuracy of the form never decreased that fast before, ever(actually it was always portrayed as improving overtime).It was likely due to Goku using the normal UI up until that point, or a form of PIS due to that never being a thing, or another example of Toyo being a terrible writer that contradicts both himself and A.T. Either way this notion that it was the clone itself that depleted the forms accuracy is not a thing, and to suggest Gran was holding back that much seems to be based literally on a desire to make one character look weak, and another look strong. Especially since every single time a duplication technique has been used in the past(Tien, Piccolo, and Krillin that one time against Nappa) it always spread the users energy equally among the copies and the user.

Unless Gran outright states it was some tiny portion of his power, I see no reason to assume it isn't like all the other duplication techniques seen before it.

[Username taken]

Looking at the scans of the fight, Granolah’s clone didn’t touch MUI Goku at all.

Granolah got the drop on him only after Goku thought the fight was over.

Point is, we haven’t yet seen MUI Goku go straight up against Granolah Prime yet. It will probably happen in a couple of issues.

[big_adventure]

Notes from both fights:

Ch. 73: Goku v. Granolah

Granolah's effortless clone is dodging Goku just fine, everything he sends. Goku chases him about, then Granolah gets the drop on Goku and smashes him through a bunch of trees.

Granolah charges, launches a punch so quick that Goku can barely defend, Goku grunts in pain at the impact, tries a counter, the clone casually slips it. Both attack, Goku lands a shot on the clone that knocks it through a tree.

Clone gets up and smacks Goku hard enough to deform his face and to knock him through a bunch of trees, Goku is left standing there "huff huff huff"ing. Goku goes Blue + UI.

Goku dodges a barrage of shots in a bunch of directions with snap dodges. He and Granolah's clone then land hits at the same time: Goku lands a Kamahameha to the chest, Granolah's clone lands a finger blast to the head. The blowback from this combined shot leaves some damage around and knocks down the idiots who set this up. Vegeta senses something is amiss from wherever he is at this point relative to the fight. Granolah gets up directly and says "stronger attacks, faster evasion: they won't help you." Goku is momentarily KO'd by Granolah's strike and is lying there on the ground knocked all the way back to base, eyes closed, out for a bit.

Goku now teleports to Vegeta and says "yo, broseph is strooooong, imma hafta go all out." Blah blah blah back to the fight. Goku goes to "perfected ultra instinct" (it's right in the text) and Granolah's fragment clone can't sense vitals anymore. Goku dominates the clone for a while.

Veggie figures out that it's a ruse right when Granolah tells goku this. The clone vanishes, Granolah appears and casually one-shots perfected ultra instinct Goku at (by his own admission) full power, using a Bruce Lee one-inch-punch, even giving Goku time to see how f$£ked he is before turning the tip of his fingers into the one-inch punch. Goku is KO'd and knocked straight back to base. He snap-dodges in, places the tip of a spear hand on Goku's chest, smiles, Goku frowns, Granolah punches and Goku is mincemeat.

This is from a form that literally just makes UE Vegeta happy to be fighting. UE Vegeta being considerably faster than Granolah's full power form, something that PUI just... isn't. As we'll see below...

Issue 74...

Blue Vegeta gets utterly dominated by Granolah's full-power form for a while, though he's actually using it as training and is getting stronger during the fight. He tricks Granolah into destroying a city - not sure what that brings, but he does. Granolah uses a similar attack to the one that finished Goku off, Veggie is bleeding out of his mouth and clearly is damaged, he goes all Hakai powerup. Next issue.

Issue 75:

Veggie flares, Granolah is fighting off the flare when Vegeta snaps in, grabbing Granolah by the collar, trash talks him, then headbutts him. V tosses G away, snap dodges behind him, smacks him away, snaps behind him, kicks him like a kickball at a drunken fourth of July party, in the air G tries to turn and shoot, V snaps above him and smacks him into the ground too fast for G to perceive yet again.

V lets G bull rush him and land his fists in V's midsection, V tanks it, looks up smiling, trash talks him, grabs his head, flies up and powerdive suplexes G into the ground. G is clearly hurting, but is obviously going to get up. He looks up just in time to take a flying kick, again way too fast for him to react to, to the stomach, smashing him through half of a city.

More trash talk, Veggie again just tanks a blast from G. V then walks through a barrage of blasts from G and moves in to strike. G brings up a barrier. More trash talk, V two-footed drop kicks straight through G's barrier. Veggie then just tanks G's haymaker with his forehead and keeps right on talking.

G now has his first implicit upgrade - still one red eye, but talks about getting stronger, and also does the "yell and scream when upgrading self" thing that DB folks do when they get stronger. They keep fighting, V does a bit better than G, but G can now land hits that V doesn't intentionally just facetank. V's damage catches up to him (he was utterly pounded on before he went GoD, soooooo...), so he launches a hakai ball. G goes double-red and pushes it back to V. V is back to black, Granolah is clearly stronger again. And of course we see that Dragon Balls and a wish are going to happen, that obviously the obvious actual bad guys are obviously bad. End of issue.

Again, the level of hits that OSKO's PUI Goku at "full power" are things that UE Veggie facetanks for LOL's. And the speed that was too fast for PUI Goku at "full power", so much so that Granolah had time to mock and Goku had time to panic, is jokingly slow to UE Vegeta.

Yes, I know and you know and we all know that Goku is going to somehow figure out something that will let him at least convince Granolah not to kill them (if not beat him directly). DB is annoyingly consistent that way. But what we've seen so far is that UE Veggie is considerably stronger and faster than PUI Goku based on the one fight each of them have been in.

[Cody]

Notes from both fights:

Ch. 73: Goku v. Granolah

Granolah's effortless clone is dodging Goku just fine, everything he sends. Goku chases him about, then Granolah gets the drop on Goku and smashes him through a bunch of trees.

Granolah charges, launches a punch so quick that Goku can barely defend, Goku grunts in pain at the impact, tries a counter, the clone casually slips it. Both attack, Goku lands a shot on the clone that knocks it through a tree.

Clone gets up and smacks Goku hard enough to deform his face and to knock him through a bunch of trees, Goku is left standing there "huff huff huff"ing. Goku goes Blue + UI.

Goku dodges a barrage of shots in a bunch of directions with snap dodges. He and Granolah's clone then land hits at the same time: Goku lands a Kamahameha to the chest, Granolah's clone lands a finger blast to the head. The blowback from this combined shot leaves some damage around and knocks down the idiots who set this up. Vegeta senses something is amiss from wherever he is at this point relative to the fight. Granolah gets up directly and says "stronger attacks, faster evasion: they won't help you." Goku is momentarily KO'd by Granolah's strike and is lying there on the ground knocked all the way back to base, eyes closed, out for a bit.

I gotta say, seems like you're going out of your way to ignore the bout between PUI Goku and Gran so you zone in on all the stuff before that as if it has any relevance. Both Vegeta and Goku were smacked around before activating their instinct modes Big, that was an obvious thing, and no one but you is talking about it. This is specifically about how the UE and PUI forms faired, full stop.

Goku now teleports to Vegeta and says "yo, broseph is strooooong, imma hafta go all out." Blah blah blah back to the fight. Goku goes to "perfected ultra instinct" (it's right in the text) and Granolah's fragment clone can't sense vitals anymore. Goku dominates the clone for a while.

By your own admission he dominates, yet you have to claim the clone is a "fragment" based on??? You're ignoring all the times that this type of move has been used by characters I mentioned above, and how it equally splits apart their energy. This is why we know pui goku dominates ue vegeta due to how easy it was for him to take apart a 50% Gran, compared to ue vegeta handling a Gran that would be only twice as strong.

Veggie figures out that it's a ruse right when Granolah tells goku this. The clone vanishes, Granolah appears and casually one-shots perfected ultra instinct Goku at (by his own admission) full power, using a Bruce Lee one-inch-punch, even giving Goku time to see how f$£ked he is before turning the tip of his fingers into the one-inch punch. Goku is KO'd and knocked straight back to base. He snap-dodges in, places the tip of a spear hand on Goku's chest, smiles, Goku frowns, Granolah punches and Goku is mincemeat.

And false. I JUST provided a video showing what happened, it wasn't a "1 inch punch" as Gran flew all the way from his ship to Goku at high speed so he could poke him in the heart, stating it was due to puis accuracy decreasing. You are now going out of your way to ignore what is seen in the video and stated in the scan above to add your own version to it.

This is from a form that literally just makes UE Vegeta happy to be fighting. UE Vegeta being considerably faster than Granolah's full power form, something that PUI just... isn't. As we'll see below...

Vegeta was outright being wounded and admitted to having taken too much damage from the scans I provided above.

Issue 74...

Blue Vegeta gets utterly dominated by Granolah's full-power form for a while, though he's actually using it as training and is getting stronger during the fight. He tricks Granolah into destroying a city - not sure what that brings, but he does. Granolah uses a similar attack to the one that finished Goku off, Veggie is bleeding out of his mouth and clearly is damaged, he goes all Hakai powerup. Next issue.

Issue 75:

Veggie flares, Granolah is fighting off the flare when Vegeta snaps in, grabbing Granolah by the collar, trash talks him, then headbutts him. V tosses G away, snap dodges behind him, smacks him away, snaps behind him, kicks him like a kickball at a drunken fourth of July party, in the air G tries to turn and shoot, V snaps above him and smacks him into the ground too fast for G to perceive yet again.

V lets G bull rush him and land his fists in V's midsection, V tanks it, looks up smiling, trash talks him, grabs his head, flies up and powerdive suplexes G into the ground. G is clearly hurting, but is obviously going to get up. He looks up just in time to take a flying kick, again way too fast for him to react to, to the stomach, smashing him through half of a city.

More trash talk, Veggie again just tanks a blast from G. V then walks through a barrage of blasts from G and moves in to strike. G brings up a barrier. More trash talk, V two-footed drop kicks straight through G's barrier. Veggie then just tanks G's haymaker with his forehead and keeps right on talking.

G now has his first implicit upgrade - still one red eye, but talks about getting stronger, and also does the "yell and scream when upgrading self" thing that DB folks do when they get stronger. They keep fighting, V does a bit better than G, but G can now land hits that V doesn't intentionally just facetank. V's damage catches up to him (he was utterly pounded on before he went GoD, soooooo...), so he launches a hakai ball. G goes double-red and pushes it back to V. V is back to black, Granolah is clearly stronger again. And of course we see that Dragon Balls and a wish are going to happen, that obviously the obvious actual bad guys are obviously bad. End of issue.

Again, the level of hits that OSKO's PUI Goku at "full power" are things that UE Veggie facetanks for LOL's. And the speed that was too fast for PUI Goku at "full power", so much so that Granolah had time to mock and Goku had time to panic, is jokingly slow to UE Vegeta.

Yes, I know and you know and we all know that Goku is going to somehow figure out something that will let him at least convince Granolah not to kill them (if not beat him directly). DB is annoyingly consistent that way. But what we've seen so far is that UE Veggie is considerably stronger and faster than PUI Goku based on the one fight each of them have been in.

All of Grans attacks harmed Vegeta, this was explicitly stated and shown and unlike you I provided the scans to prove it. The form makes the user act very reckless, to the point they willingly take hits because of how much they enjoy the fight, something that Vegeta paid for as shown in the scans I provided and you continue to ignore.

Gran reacted to the vast majority of Vegeta attacks, as I showed as well, and Gran never hit Vegeta heart like he did with Goku, just his stomach. Nothing to suggest Vegeta would have faired better. And again; Gran outright could not see PUI Goku move or attack like he did with Vegeta, and the attacks impacted him far more and Grans attacks were casually stopped. Until you can explain how Gran being 2x stronger would make a difference against PUI Goku, you don't have much of an argument here Big. I know you like Vegeta, I do too, but he still isn't on PUI Gokus level, based on actual showings.

[big_adventure]

I gotta say, seems like you're going out of your way to ignore the bout between PUI Goku and Gran so you zone in on all the stuff before that as if it has any relevance. Both Vegeta and Goku were smacked around before activating their instinct modes Big, that was an obvious thing, and no one but you is talking about it. This is specifically about how the UE and PUI forms faired, full stop.



By your own admission he dominates, yet you have to claim the clone is a "fragment" based on??? You're ignoring all the times that this type of move has been used by characters I mentioned above, and how it equally splits apart their energy. This is why we know pui goku dominates ue vegeta due to how easy it was for him to take apart a 50% Gran, compared to ue vegeta handling a Gran that would be only twice as strong.



And false. I JUST provided a video showing what happened, it wasn't a "1 inch punch" as Gran flew all the way from his ship to Goku at high speed so he could poke him in the heart, stating it was due to puis accuracy decreasing. You are now going out of your way to ignore what is seen in the video and stated in the scan above to add your own version to it.



Vegeta was outright being wounded and admitted to having taken too much damage from the scans I provided above.



All of Grans attacks harmed Vegeta, this was explicitly stated and shown and unlike you I provided the scans to prove it. The form makes the user act very reckless, to the point they willingly take hits because of how much they enjoy the fight, something that Vegeta paid for as shown in the scans I provided and you continue to ignore.

Gran reacted to the vast majority of Vegeta attacks, as I showed as well, and Gran never hit Vegeta heart like he did with Goku, just his stomach. Nothing to suggest Vegeta would have faired better. And again; Gran outright could not see PUI Goku move or attack like he did with Vegeta, and the attacks impacted him far more and Grans attacks were casually stopped. Until you can explain how Gran being 2x stronger would make a difference against PUI Goku, you don't have much of an argument here Big. I know you like Vegeta, I do too, but he still isn't on PUI Gokus level, based on actual showings.

The only one showing incredible bias here is you.

I flat out describe PUI working the clone like a rented mule. But there is nowhere that indicates that this is half Gran's power and, given what else happens at the same time and after, and based on Gran's own statements, there it no reason to believe it is half his power. Comparing this to multi-form technique is ridiculous - that is never used to do two different things at once - it's always only used to fight the same opponent at the same time. Here, Gran sent a little power clone off to fight because he didn't figure he'd have to involve himself for real. He says so on panel.

When PUI was dropped like a bad habit, I literally describe everything on panel from re-reading the actual issue while I was taking notes. Granolah goes from "not next to goku" to "next to Goku, tip of spear hand touching his side" too fast for Full Power PUI Goku to react. He smiles slightly, Goku makes an "yeesus I'm screwed" face, Gran one-inch punches, and Goku is unconscious. Simple as that. And this was a form that Vegeta had no issues at all facetanking what he wanted to tank. The damage Vegeta suffered was a) before going UE and b) after Gran makes his first visible, clear powerup, when the went from "Vegeta trivially dominates every aspect of the battle and is gratuitously too fast for Gran to deal with at all" to "they are fighting relatively evenly with both of them landing blows." Veggie still had a slight edge, but now he's taking enough damage to count. Before Gran has his first powerup, Veggie is pretty explicitly unphased by anything Gran is doing. After, nope, it's too much damage. I would strongly advise going and checking the issues again, that's what I did as I wrote that very-detailed and very non-biased analysis.

[Totoro Man]

It's incredible you think that Végéta will get blinded by the solar flare, having seen it used so very many times, and that you imagine that Goku's destructo disc would scratch UE Vegeta's paint. It would simply not. Goku did nothing at all that approached Granolah's best, and Vegeta tanked that like it was nothing.

Sorry, please try again. Until Goku gets his next inevitable upgrade to win this fight, Vegeta is currently stronger.

to be fair, I can't remember a single instance where the Solar Flare was used where... it didn't work.

the alternative is to close your eyes as you see them prep the move... and then they could just speedblitz you while your eyes are closed.

now, if somebody has been proven to be faster than the person trying to use the Solar Flare, they could just close their eyes for a second.... because the hand gesture, once you've seen it, is pretty distinctive. the attack also seems to require being called out.

[big_adventure]

to be fair, I can't remember a single instance where the Solar Flare was used where... it didn't work.

the alternative is to close your eyes as you see them prep the move... and then they could just speedblitz you while your eyes are closed.

now, if somebody has been proven to be faster than the person trying to use the Solar Flare, they could just close their eyes for a second.... because the hand gesture, once you've seen it, is pretty distinctive. the attack also seems to require being called out.

Eh, it's almost always been used against someone who has never seen it before. Goku fell for Krillin's during the build-up to the ToP, but then Krillin had been working on vastly upping the output and Goku wasn't really trying to kill the guy (or he would have been dead). Also, there is no reason for Veggie to wait for Goku to use it - based on their performances against Gran, Veggie is a good deal faster than PUI Goku and can just snap behind him and hakai him. No PIS in Rumbles, there is no reason he wouldn't shoot to kill on the first shot.

[Totoro Man]

which makes it more baffling that when Cell used it on Piccolo, Trunks, and Krillin should have all seen that attack coming and found a way to no-sell it. especially since they had Cell outnumbered. I always chalked that up to PIS and plot armor for Cell.

[big_adventure]

which makes it more baffling that when Cell used it on Piccolo, Trunks, and Krillin should have all seen that attack coming and found a way to no-sell it. especially since they had Cell outnumbered. I always chalked that up to PIS and plot armor for Cell.

Yup. I think they were also still getting over the fact that Cell knew and could do all of their moves, despite never having seen them before. TFS had the best take on Cell using their moves (of course): Cell starts a Kamehameha, Piccolo's inner voice goes "Unnnnh! That's a kamehameha! Only Goku can do that! Er, and Roshi. And Krillin. And me. And Yamcha. And..." Good times.