The Justice Leagues - Legacy, History and Room For Improvement

[Doctor Know]

I have been thinking about how few truly solid JL runs there are, despite the series running for more than 61 years. The top votes that always get a mention are the Bronze Age Satellite years, Justice League International, Morrison, Waid and Kelley on JLA, and Timm's JL and JLU animated series. After that, everything else is fighting for 5th place and below.


Johns' New 52 run, Hitch's Rebirth Run, Scott Sndyer's run, Meltzer's pre and post Infinite Crisis run, McDuffie and Robinson's pre-Flashpoint run, Dan Jurgens pre and post Death of Superman run, the Silver Age Gardner Fox years.


It's a conundrum, don't you think? JL is great in animation (Timmverse, DCAU movies), great on film (ZSJL), great during events (COIE, Infinite Crisis, 52/World War 3, Final Crisis, Blackest Night/Brightest DayThrone of Atlantis, Rebirth), great in AU (The New Frontier, Kingdom Come, Justice), but the mainline stories of runs outside "the big four" rarely are elevated to that level.


Why do you think that is? What do you think the missing ingredient is?

[Menacer]

I have been thinking about how few truly solid JL runs there are, despite the series running for more than 61 years. The top votes that always get a mention are the Bronze Age Satellite years, Justice League International, Morrison, Waid and Kelley on JLA, and Timm's JL and JLU animated series. After that, everything else is fighting for 5th place and below.


Johns' New 52 run, Hitch's Rebirth Run, Scott Sndyer's run, Meltzer's pre and post Infinite Crisis run, McDuffie and Robinson's pre-Flashpoint run, Dan Jurgens pre and post Death of Superman run, the Silver Age Gardner Fox years.


It's a conundrum, don't you think? JL is great in animation (Timmverse, DCAU movies), great on film (ZSJL), great during events (COIE, Infinite Crisis, 52/World War 3, Final Crisis, Blackest Night/Brightest DayThrone of Atlantis, Rebirth), great in AU (The New Frontier, Kingdom Come, Justice), but the mainline stories of runs outside "the big four" rarely are elevated to that level.


Why do you think that is? What do you think the missing ingredient is?

I definitely haven't read enough to make an orderly list.

But Johns Justice League Darkseid War Saga Omnibus is not just the best JL I've read but one of the greatest collections of comic book mayhem I've ever read.

As for the older stuff. Thats likely held up by only the older generation.

I constantly dig back to 80s and 70s books. There is some fun stuff there and from a historical point of view hugely valuable... but not something new fans would list in the top 4...would they??? Even just for the fact they haven't read it.

Having said that superhero comics is an old mans game, 30 and older.

I'm 36...

I'll copy ur post and gonna head to my local used book store and see if I can find any of what you've listed!

[Factor]

I don't think they're great on film, but since the thread's focus is comics...
I think the quality inconsistency is pretty normal for all DC teams with such long histories. Titans and LoSH also suffer from tons of bad to mediocre runs due to bad management from DC's part.

[Stanlos]

I have been thinking about how few truly solid JL runs there are, despite the series running for more than 61 years. The top votes that always get a mention are the Bronze Age Satellite years, Justice League International, Morrison, Waid and Kelley on JLA, and Timm's JL and JLU animated series. After that, everything else is fighting for 5th place and below.


Johns' New 52 run, Hitch's Rebirth Run, Scott Sndyer's run, Meltzer's pre and post Infinite Crisis run, McDuffie and Robinson's pre-Flashpoint run, Dan Jurgens pre and post Death of Superman run, the Silver Age Gardner Fox years.


It's a conundrum, don't you think? JL is great in animation (Timmverse, DCAU movies), great on film (ZSJL), great during events (COIE, Infinite Crisis, 52/World War 3, Final Crisis, Blackest Night/Brightest DayThrone of Atlantis, Rebirth), great in AU (The New Frontier, Kingdom Come, Justice), but the mainline stories of runs outside "the big four" rarely are elevated to that level.


Why do you think that is? What do you think the missing ingredient is?

Nothing after Flashpoint for me. Some of Johns JL stuff was mildly passable because of the art but he didn't seem too into the League. We wasted so much time on meaningless crossovers, Lex Luthor being on the League, Forever Snoozer, the Dark Metal, and that darn Doorknob crap. They have been treading water ever since the Flashpoint 52 stunt. No new iconic moments and very little original notions (I mean, the Fourth World and especially Anti-Life were treated in the most pedestrian way possible)

[HandofPrometheus]

I feel like the JL doesn't have any iconic storylines outside of events. X-men, Avengers, LoSH, TT, and F4 are all big teams that have notable iconic stories even if said teams are known for just one. I feel like the JL is always remembered for its lineups but never the content.

[abetterday]

I think as far as the comic side of things they should lean into religion. I would like to see Jesus, Moses and Hercules make an appearance along with traveling into the past in the time of the Trojan War and Homer's Odyssey. I no longer want to see adventures in deep space that seem to be trying to out do Star Wars and Star Trek.

[HsssH]

Am I the only one who doesn't like Waid's and Kelley's runs?

[married guy]

The Justice League has been pretty damn awful for me ever since Meltzer's run finished.
I bought it every month from Morrison through to Denny O'Neil, then again from Busiek through to Robinson (#42) before I realised I hadn't enjoyed the book in years.
I've tried picking it up again with every relaunch and change of writer, but nothing has grabbed and held my attention in years.
As for why? Buggered if I know!!

[atomicskull]

I feel like the JL doesn't have any iconic storylines outside of events. X-men, Avengers, LoSH, TT, and F4 are all big teams that have notable iconic stories even if said teams are known for just one. I feel like the JL is always remembered for its lineups but never the content.

Even those events aren't iconic, in my opinion. Justice League doesn't have a Days of Future Past, Under Siege, House of M or even a Civil War. I feel like the Justice League are always subject to the same old stories and villains.

[Thor-Ul]

I wish than the Robinson run would had gone without such editorial interference, same has happened to McDuffy. I liked the original ideas from Robinson but there was such interference.

[married guy]

Am I the only one who doesn't like Waid's and Kelley's runs?

I really enjoyed Waid's JLA run, but I found Kelly's was very uneven. (His first issue spotlighting Plas was a highlight)

[atomicskull]

Am I the only one who doesn't like Waid's and Kelley's runs?

Waid's JLA was detrimental to BatGod like Morrison and Miller were with the whole Towel of Babel and it completely ruined the character in my eyes. I like Kelly's run, assuming you're not talking about Kelly Puckett.

[John Venus]

The early Silver Age JL comics had the League fighting your average world ending threat where almost every villain felt interchangeable. The story telling style was not that deep. Everybody sounded the same. That slowly changed in the 70's and 80's when the League started getting more fleshed out personalities and there was more focus on group dynamics but the villains were rarely memorable. Then we had the JL: Detroit period followed by the 'Bwahahaha' era until the Morrison/Waid/Kelly era happened. They basically did 'neo Silver Age' stories where they took concepts from that era but then retold in them in a modern story telling style. After that we got that incredibly polarizing 'Identity Crisis' followed by the Meltzer run which I don't think anybody could be objective about because their takes would be coloured by what happened in ID and then McDuffie's run which had infamous editorial interference followed by the Robinson run which almost nobody on here seemed to like back then. Then we had the Nu52 run which felt like an 'edgy' Wildstorm like take on the JL and then....I kind of dropped out after that and nothing about Bendis League excites me.

At this point, I think the League's value is mainly symbolic. The League is the 'center' of the DC superhero teams then you have the young guys (Teen Titans), even younger younger guys (Young Justice), the old guys (the JSA), the weird guys (Doom Patrol) and the magic guys (Justice League Dark).

For the League to really work you need to build up each individual franchise. Right now, only Batman is stable. Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash and Green Lantern need to top sellers again. Plus the League really needs League specific villains and not just fight each others villains; the Anti-Matter Universe/Earth 3 characters, the Key, the Appexllians all spring to mind as examples of that. Plus you also need characters who can't support their ongoings so they need a team for the sake of exposure so that one day they can headline their own ongoing or they have an ongoing but they need to be part of a team for the signal boost; Vixen, Black Lightning, Guy Gardner, Booster Gold, Blue Beetle, Fire, Ice all counts as this.

[HsssH]

I really enjoyed Waid's JLA run, but I found Kelly's was very uneven. (His first issue spotlighting Plas was a highlight)

Oh yeah, I love that Plastic Man issue, but nothing else really comes close to it. To be honest my major problem with the run is Batman/WW romance. I really, really don't like it.

Waid's JLA was detrimental to BatGod like Morrison and Miller were with the whole Towel of Babel and it completely ruined the character in my eyes. I like Kelly's run, assuming you're not talking about Kelly Puckett.

I'm a bit conflicted on Morrison when it comes to BatGod. Yes, opening arc really goes out there. But after that it kinda diminishes? Sure, he still gets to do cool things and act badass, but I don't remember him really being a deciding factor in Rock of Ages, One Million or WW3. He even gets taken out by future Batman and Prometheus rather easily.

With Waid I didn't like his filler issues during Morrison's run, but yeah, Tower of Babel is major reason. I really hate that it became an important story going forward for Bruce's characterization.

For the League to really work you need to build up each individual franchise.

I think you just need to write good stories that feel epic and make some sense. I don't think that anyone cares if character X has good solo book at the time or not.

[Multiverse]

I grew up with Grant Morrison's JLA and the JLU Animated Series, so my take on Justice League is on the "Epic" scale. It's always been my preference that "Team" books need to take on grand-scale events. As a result my favourite Justice League stories will always come from Morrison/ Meltzer and both "JLU" and "Young Justice". And though I do love Dwayne McDuffie, Geoff Johns and Scott Snyder's Runs ("Injustice League Unlimited", "Throne of Atlantis" and "Hawkworld" being my personal favorites of each), editorial mismanagement and certain story points left me wondering.