The Justice Leagues - Legacy, History and Room For Improvement

[Gaius]

Sort of like how getting punched in the stomach is better than getting hit in the head with a brick.


The thing with the Justice League is its appeal is in the concept of the "Big Guns" all working together. Although the roster has rotated and changed through the years, the core concept of the team is it's DC's biggest and most powerful characters teamed up to face some threat.

And that is also the problem with the Justice League, because you then have to contrive scenarios and threats that demand the biggest and most powerful characters to work together. That's why the team only works on major event stories and not a constant monthly routine.

The truth is these characters were not meant to stand side-by-side all the time and, frankly, they don't complement one another. There are few threats that Superman or Wonder Woman or the Flash or Green Lantern shouldn't be able to handle on their own, much less demand all of them at the same time. So what we end up getting on a semi-monthly basis is every character gets watered down and nerfed. And who the hell wants to read a story where Superman or Wonder Woman (among others) are only allowed to act at 50% capacity (or less) because the plot says so?
Or the opposite in Batman because the writers need to justify why the rich guy with no powers can hang with these god-like beings and not get crushed into paste...which is how we get the insufferable Bat-god.

And not even just power levels. Theses characters are, by design, fully rounded protagonists of their own worlds, but in the Justice League, they have to get shallowed into narrow labels because on a team, they are merely one piece of a hole. So we end up the most basic, surface-level interpretations of these characters' personalities.

And I think that's ultimately why most JL runs are mediocre and not held in high regard. What's the fun of seeing the "best" characters DC has working together when few of them are actually at their best in any given issue? I think it's worth noting that even in the examples suggested where Justice League is/was good still had glaring blindspots. For instance, Justice League has never, EVER been good to Wonder Woman.

So what's the solution? I don't know. As said, the appeal of the Justice League is seeing the Big Guns working together, but having them chained to one another month in, month out in stories that don't demand their presence dilutes the idea and drains all the fun from it.

Yep. Can't speak for Pre-Crisis JL but says a lot that even the "acclaimed" JL runs everyone likes to go on about like Morrison or the DCAU, she is at the best of times merely mediocre with rare exceptions of good writing.

And that's before we get into true dreck like with elseworlds Injustice or DCeased.

[Restingvoice]

First of all I want the League to be a League, not limited to a Super Seven. Like a soccer league, it should be an organization of teams and task forces so they can save the world more effectively instead of limiting it like an elite club

[Johnny Thunders!]

I think the Justice League have a pretty solid run for about 10 or 15 years from the 70s to the 80s. Most of Morrisons run, maybe not the New Gods Stuff, pulls pretty heavily from this era. Highlights for me Justice League 200, 137-138, the Wedding of Adam Strange, and the original Starbreaker saga all rank high in my book. I think the Morrison run hasn't been equaled since and I think it's influence might be a problem for current runs. I collected the book from New 52 up to Scott Snyders run and I only remember the first 1-7 issues at all.

[SJNeal]

First of all I want the League to be a League, not limited to a Super Seven. Like a soccer league, it should be an organization of teams and task forces so they can save the world more effectively instead of limiting it like an elite club

Agreed.

I think one thing that hampers the JL is the fact that so many people insist it *must* be the Big 7 to be the "real" JL. The flipside to that thinking was articulated well by another poster - you end up with very few landmark/notable stories. In order for stories to have any weight they need consequences, and you can't have consequences when you can't develop your cast.

[Robanker]

Yep. Can't speak for Pre-Crisis JL but says a lot that even the "acclaimed" JL runs everyone likes to go on about like Morrison or the DCAU, she is at the best of times merely mediocre with rare exceptions of good writing.

And that's before we get into true dreck like with elseworlds Injustice or DCeased.

What can be kinder than being Superman's temptress or Batman's side piece?





It's hard being a Wonder Woman fan when that's how DC treated her in the greater DCU for a while.


As for the OP, sadly the League usually gets treated as a B-level book that's more of a sampler. They know they'll get people who love that one hero and hope that exposure will sell them the others, so they get small moments designed to make you think "maybe I should be reading Green Lantern."

It doesn't matter if JL tells banger stories so much as it brings you to the solo books that try to..

The fact that Snyder's run was a big 38 issue trailer for Metal is kind of proof of that. Only the Superman family punch and Jarro get referenced now. It's kind of just a book to tell you the general state of DC and sell other books.


The way to fix it is clear, but hard. Write stories that are less "who can they fight" and more "what do I want to say using the Justice League?"

Obviously that's not a hard and fast rule, but I think it's a good place to start.

[Agent Z]

Yeah, this is true in the sense that Wonder Woman, Aquaman and Green Lantern, to pick some of the 'big seven' have HUGE complex setting pieces baked into them (Themiscrya, Atlantis, all of this freaking space sector), and any Justice League story is generally not going to be able to be relevant to all of their personal elements, causing the 'Justice League' version of these characters to be a stripped-down smaller 'lesser' version than we get to see in their solo books.

Inherently 'lesser' characters like Red Tornado or Hawkwoman, on the other hand, don't have to have their entire personal mythos / environment / supporting cast shoved off into the background and ignored, for them to be relevant on the League.

Marvel certainly does some of the same, with characters like Iron Man and Thor and Captain America, who also have their own books, and elements like Stark International or Asgard, that get ignored when they are Avengering, but the team also regularly has characters like Wasp and Vision and She-Hulk who don't have their own 'worlds' that have to be pruned away to squeeze them into the Avengers. The League, IMO, should always include not *just* the seven most solo-friendly 'big names' (some of them, certainly!) but leave some room for the Black Canaries, Booster Golds and Vixens, who don't necessarily have all sorts of stuff going on outside the League book that has to be selectively ignored to force-fit them onto the League.

Instead of a small subset of Wonder Woman or Aquaman or Green Lantern, stripped of many or even most of the vital character-defining elements from their own personal mythology, we could have all of Green Arrow or Vixen or Plastic Man.

Green Arrow also has his own corner of the DCU so I wouldn't include him among Vixen or Plastic Man.

[Doctor Know]

What can be kinder than being Superman's temptress or Batman's side piece?





It's hard being a Wonder Woman fan when that's how DC treated her in the greater DCU for a while.


As for the OP, sadly the League usually gets treated as a B-level book that's more of a sampler. They know they'll get people who love that one hero and hope that exposure will sell them the others, so they get small moments designed to make you think "maybe I should be reading Green Lantern."

It doesn't matter if JL tells banger stories so much as it brings you to the solo books that try to..

The fact that Snyder's run was a big 38 issue trailer for Metal is kind of proof of that. Only the Superman family punch and Jarro get referenced now. It's kind of just a book to tell you the general state of DC and sell other books.


The way to fix it is clear, but hard. Write stories that are less "who can they fight" and more "what do I want to say using the Justice League?"

Obviously that's not a hard and fast rule, but I think it's a good place to start.

@Bold
Mate, that is the funniest and saddest thing I've read about Snyder's JL run. That makes his run sound like an absolute waste. This after the reported snoozefest that was Hitch's run.

I'm working myself up to read all of Snyder's JL run and adjacent events, but after what you said. I think I'll put it off a little longer.

[SJNeal]

@Bold
Mate, that is the funniest and saddest thing I've read about Snyder's JL run. That makes his run sound like an absolute waste. This after the reported snoozefest that was Hitch's run.

I'm working myself up to read all of Snyder's JL run and adjacent events, but after what you said. I think I'll put it off a little longer.

In defense of Snyder's run; for me there was a tangible sense of anticipation throughout the whole thing - you just knew something big was coming and couldn't wait for the other shoe to drop. Unfortunately that other shoe ended up being Death Metal. However the pictures were all very pretty!

Ok maybe this wasn't such a good defense after all...

[Factor]

Yeah, Snyder's run started pretty well, but couldn't keep the momentum for long and then the run ended in the most anticlimatic way possible to tease Death Metal (which wasn't a good story at all).

[Alkaeus]

Fwiw I'm not sure I agree with the idea that the League don't have iconic stories; say what you will about him and the quality of his DC movies, but there's no way Snyder didn't read Rock of Ages, and Tower of Babel got adapted in Justice League: Doom and is the basis for many a BatGod joke. That's putting aside the fact that certain Elseworlds (like Kingdom Come or the New Frontier) figure the League in pretty important ways.

[TheBatman]

Fwiw I'm not sure I agree with the idea that the League don't have iconic stories; say what you will about him and the quality of his DC movies, but there's no way Snyder didn't read Rock of Ages, and Tower of Babel got adapted in Justice League: Doom and is the basis for many a BatGod joke. That's putting aside the fact that certain Elseworlds (like Kingdom Come or the New Frontier) figure the League in pretty important ways.

I agree. Like, no offense to the OP, but I'm trying to figure out what exactly the problem is.

There are tons of known superhero characters that would be lucky to have 3+ notable comic book runs.

"No Man Escapes the Manhunters", "Rock of Ages", "Tower of Babel", "The New Frontier", "Kingdom Come, "Darkseid War", all great stories that have been adapted into different media.

Even polarizing stuff like "Identity Crisis" or Geoff Johns/Jim Lee's first JL arc are still notable stories.

If this thread proves anything, its that, IMO, the Justice Leagues comic book legacy may actually be underrated. The only thing I could agree with is that the JL could use a more recent run that's as classic as Morrison or JLI, but that's not even a problem limited to the JL brand.

[Doctor Know]

Fwiw I'm not sure I agree with the idea that the League don't have iconic stories; say what you will about him and the quality of his DC movies, but there's no way Snyder didn't read Rock of Ages, and Tower of Babel got adapted in Justice League: Doom and is the basis for many a BatGod joke. That's putting aside the fact that certain Elseworlds (like Kingdom Come or the New Frontier) figure the League in pretty important ways.

I agree. Like, no offense to the OP, but I'm trying to figure out what exactly the problem is.

There are tons of known superhero characters that would be lucky to have 3+ notable comic book runs.

"No Man Escapes the Manhunters", "Rock of Ages", "Tower of Babel", "The New Frontier", "Kingdom Come, "Darkseid War", all great stories that have been adapted into different media.

Even polarizing stuff like "Identity Crisis" or Geoff Johns/Jim Lee's first JL arc are still notable stories.

If this thread proves anything, its that, IMO, the Justice Leagues comic book legacy may actually be underrated. The only thing I could agree with is that the JL could use a more recent run that's as classic as Morrison or JLI, but that's not even a problem limited to the JL brand.

I didn’t say that the JL had no notable stories. I brought attention to the JL existing for 61 years and the agreed on top 4 runs and adaptions. Satellite Era, JLI, 90s JLA Morrison/Waid/Kelley and Bruce Timm’s JL/JLU animated series.

New Frontier is an amazing story and far better origin than the Gardner Fox Silver Age origin, or Geoff Johns’ New 52. But it’s elseworlds and not in continuity.

Kingdom Come is DC’s “Civil War” (Avengers). But it is also elseworlds and not in continuity. Just like Injustuce, Earth One, Timm’s Gods and Monster’s JL, and Frank Miller’s takes on the JL are elseworlds and segregated from the main canon. Meaning they are of no consequence to the main line books and events. Thus they can be ignored.


Tough situation to have so many cool and interesting stories be relegated to AU. While the main continuity isn’t always firing on all cylinders with notable runs.

I listed the big 4 that everyone agrees are the best the League had to offer. What else would suggest belongs in the top 5?

Johns’ New 52 run
Hitch’s Rebirth run
Scott Snyder’s run
The Detroit Era
Meltzer’s run
Robinson’s run
The original Gardner Fox years
Etc

If this was listing the top Avengers runs, I could confidently get to a top 10. With the JL. I struggle to get to a top 5.

[TheBatman]

That's not a problem with the JL franchise, but rather a subjective view of the Justice League's comic book history.

You say you could easily name 10 notable Avengers runs. I'd say that if you listed those ten runs, there's probably a few I and others would not consider all that notable. I'd also say that the wide majority of superhero franchises don't really have 10 runs that are universally considered notable.

[BatmanJones]

Why should non-continuity stuff not count, because it never really happened? None of it ever really happened. They're all imaginary stories.

And some of the very best of them are the best because they're outside of continuity, so that they're free to be the very best ones. Continuity is restrictive and some (if not most) of DC's best stories are outside of continuity. The JLAU aren't "in continuity" either. They're in their own world, in their own continuity, just as each Elseworlds story is.

Another great one that I haven't seen mentioned is The Nail (and its sequel Another Nail). I'm not saying it's the best JLA story ever but I'm not saying it's not either. It's pretty damn good.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Why should non-continuity stuff not count, because it never really happened? None of it ever really happened. They're all imaginary stories.

And some of the very best of them are the best because they're outside of continuity, so that they're free to be the very best ones. Continuity is restrictive and some (if not most) of DC's best stories are outside of continuity. The JLAU aren't "in continuity" either. They're in their own world, in their own continuity, just as each Elseworlds story is.

Another great one that I haven't seen mentioned is The Nail (and its sequel Another Nail). I'm not saying it's the best JLA story ever but I'm not saying it's not either. It's pretty damn good.

I think being set in continuity has often been what's stymied a lot of potentially great JLA runs, because the book is constantly at the mercy of whatever transitory changes are taking place in the Big Guns solo comics. The only creators who were able to make that disadvantage work for them were Giffen, DeMatties & Maguire in JLI by leaning into the fact that these characters weren't the A-listers.