The Justice Leagues - Legacy, History and Room For Improvement

[Doctor Know]

I feel like the JL doesn't have any iconic storylines outside of events. X-men, Avengers, LoSH, TT, and F4 are all big teams that have notable iconic stories even if said teams are known for just one. I feel like the JL is always remembered for its lineups but never the content.

Even those events aren't iconic, in my opinion. Justice League doesn't have a Days of Future Past, Under Siege, House of M or even a Civil War. I feel like the Justice League are always subject to the same old stories and villains.

That's part of the problem, I think.

Everyone knows about the Kree-Skrull War, Coming of Galactus, Days of Future Past, Dark Phoenix, Age of Apocalypse, Infinity Gauntlet, the Winter Solider, House of M, Civil War and Spider-Verse. On the DC side, the most famous events are the Judas Contract, Terror of Trigon, Crisis on Infinite Earths and Throne of Atlantis. Only one of the above is specifically a League story, Throne of Atlantis. It's been adapted for the DCAU, Aquaman movie and in the JSA WW2 animated movie.


The Justice League has it's version of Civil War, it's called Kingdom Come. But that's AU and it doesn't get much exposure or reference nowadays. Everyone knows about Batman's plans to counter the JL being stolen and used by villains. But I doubt many people know the story is called JLA Tower of Babel. Most people know it from the animated movie, JL Doom. Out of the entire New 52 run with Johns. With him coordinating 3 different JLs for Trinity War. The only stories that made it in to a wider audience were the new origin (adapted as JL War, which looks just like MCU Avengers 1), Throne of Atlantis (adapted 3 times in 7 years), and Apokolips War (adapted loosely as Darkseid War DCAU). Meanwhile, Marvel Now (starting around the same time as the New 52) had Hickman's run on Avengers, New Avengers, Infinity and Secret Wars was multifaceted and acclaimed all the way through.


The only events I could find out of the Rebirth era, were JL vs SS and Doomsday Clock. Both of which are remembered for being unmemorable. After that, it's Scott Snyder's Metal and Death Metal. Neither of which were my cup of tea or where I think DC needed to be.


Going back to New 52 for a moment, the JL has a superior origin to the standard alien invasion story. It's called The New Frontier, but once again. That is AU and has no follow-up.


Let me be clear here. I'm not saying DC needs to adopt a present day Marvel style of event focused storytelling. Events like Original Sin, Fear Itself, Axis, Secret Empire, Siege (2010), Age of Ultron, Avengers vs X-Men, Inhumans vs X-Men etc. These events are nobodies favorites stories and do more harm than good, to the books that have to detour into every year's line wide crossovers. If the JL told good stories with interesting concepts, that could reach the iconic status of their contemporaries and past iterations. We could have something grand.


I also want to echo what @John Venus, said. The League needs their own villains exclusively and not just fight their rivals from their solo titles. That would force the writing to be creative and dump tired tropes.

[BatmanJones]

I really enjoyed Waid's JLA run, but I found Kelly's was very uneven. (His first issue spotlighting Plas was a highlight)

Me too, with the exception of the Priest/Woods fill-in run between Hitch and Snyder which I loved, but that was only about 6 issues long.

I even thought Waid often outshined Morrison but that Kelley’s was only okay. I also agree that Meltzer’s run was the last good one and it’s actually among my favorites.

It’s weird to see Hitch’s run listed in the OP. That one is pretty universally derided. I wouldn’t call it the worst run, but I do consider it to be the most boring.

Edit: Hitch’s is second most boring to me. Bendis has already stolen that crown.

[Doctor Know]

Me too, with the exception of the Priest/Woods fill-in run between Hitch and Snyder which I loved, but that was only about 6 issues long.

I even thought Waid often outshined Morrison but that Kelley’s was only okay. I also agree that Meltzer’s run was the last good one and it’s actually among my favorites.

I thought Kelley's was okay. Just not as memorable as Morrison and Waid's run. The best story of his run has to be Obsidian Age. And that was certainly a tome to get through.

It’s weird to see Hitch’s run listed in the OP. That one is pretty universally derided. I wouldn’t call it the worst run, but I do consider it to be the most boring.

Edit: Hitch’s is second most boring to me. Bendis has already stolen that crown.

I added Hitch's run because it's current to the last 5 years. When Rebirth started. Setting the characterization of the DCU to pre-Flashpoint but continuing the continuity of the New 52 League. I never finished Hitch's run, myself. I was planning to start from the beginning in the next few days.

[Alpha]

I quite liked Golden Perfect by Joe Kelly. Probably one of the best uses of Wonder Woman in the Justice League.

[BatmanJones]

Someone above made a great point about Kingdom Come. A lot of the best JL stories have been Elseworlds.

[Jekyll]

The JSA are far more interesting and superior to the JLA in every way, despite the powers that be trying to bury them in purgatory.

[RobinGA]

Now, now no need to tear down the JLA.

We JSA fans are now in the full wandering in the desert as our exile continues.
No need to alienate fan bases, we will need all the help we can get.

[TheBatman]

I have been thinking about how few truly solid JL runs there are, despite the series running for more than 61 years. The top votes that always get a mention are the Bronze Age Satellite years, Justice League International, Morrison, Waid and Kelley on JLA, and Timm's JL and JLU animated series. After that, everything else is fighting for 5th place and below.

I mean, that's still about as much, if not more notable runs and media than most franchises get.

And honestly, and this may be an unpopular opinion, even with Batman, I'd say he has about 3 very notable runs at best.

I'd argue Superman has even less notable runs than that. Like Batman, his most iconic comics tend to be one off stories.

I don't think they're great on film, but since the thread's focus is comics...
I think the quality inconsistency is pretty normal for all DC teams with such long histories. Titans and LoSH also suffer from tons of bad to mediocre runs due to bad management from DC's part.

Yup.

I'm not seeing how JL has a problem in this area, especially compared to other long standing DC franchises.

Let's be honest, with the Titans, it's likely that most readers can probably only recall Wolfman/Perez and the Geoff Johns run. With LOSH, it's Paul Levitz, and...that's about it.

Also, yeah...they're not great on film. Been a huge letdown, to be honest, especially compared to the comics. And those DC Animated films weren't that good, either.

[TheBatman]

The JSA are far more interesting and superior to the JLA in every way, despite the powers that be trying to bury them in purgatory.

When the JSA can remain relevant without Geoff Johns, I'll believe they're more interesting and superior than the JLA.

[Doctor Know]

I think the quality inconsistency is pretty normal for all DC teams with such long histories. Titans and LoSH also suffer from tons of bad to mediocre runs due to bad management from DC's part.

Yup.

I'm not seeing how JL has a problem in this area, especially compared to other long standing DC franchises.

Let's be honest, with the Titans, it's likely that most readers can probably only recall Wolfman/Perez and the Geoff Johns run. With LOSH, it's Paul Levitz, and...that's about it.

You both aren't wrong about the TT and LOSH. They have been shafted a lot worse than the JL. The early Mark Waid Threeboot Legion was good and unique. Then he added Supergirl to the roster and everything became about her. A distant second to Levitz's legendary late 70s-late 80s run. With the Titans, nearly every writer (Johns included) has tried to recreate that magic of the NTT of Perez/Wolfman. Both need a huge shake-up to upset the status quo. But hey, at least the animated series (including YJ) and movies are accessible to newcomers. That's something at least.

Also, yeah...they're not great on film. Been a huge letdown, to be honest, especially compared to the comics. And those DC Animated films weren't that good, either.

Snyder's version of JL was positively received. Everyone agrees is better than unfunny one-liner, CGI moustache, Josstice League. As for the animated films, they do a good job for the most part. My friends, who are mainly "Marvel Zombies", can get into the animated stuff, a lot easier than picking up the comics. Partially, because the animated movies are accessible (easy to follow and digest without being burdened by continuity), but mostly because they have no idea where to start reading JL.

[Guy_McNichts]

Snyder's version of JL was positively received. Everyone agrees is better than unfunny one-liner, CGI moustache, Josstice League.

Sort of like how getting punched in the stomach is better than getting hit in the head with a brick.


The thing with the Justice League is its appeal is in the concept of the "Big Guns" all working together. Although the roster has rotated and changed through the years, the core concept of the team is it's DC's biggest and most powerful characters teamed up to face some threat.

And that is also the problem with the Justice League, because you then have to contrive scenarios and threats that demand the biggest and most powerful characters to work together. That's why the team only works on major event stories and not a constant monthly routine.

The truth is these characters were not meant to stand side-by-side all the time and, frankly, they don't complement one another. There are few threats that Superman or Wonder Woman or the Flash or Green Lantern shouldn't be able to handle on their own, much less demand all of them at the same time. So what we end up getting on a semi-monthly basis is every character gets watered down and nerfed. And who the hell wants to read a story where Superman or Wonder Woman (among others) are only allowed to act at 50% capacity (or less) because the plot says so?
Or the opposite in Batman because the writers need to justify why the rich guy with no powers can hang with these god-like beings and not get crushed into paste...which is how we get the insufferable Bat-god.

And not even just power levels. Theses characters are, by design, fully rounded protagonists of their own worlds, but in the Justice League, they have to get shallowed into narrow labels because on a team, they are merely one piece of a hole. So we end up the most basic, surface-level interpretations of these characters' personalities.

And I think that's ultimately why most JL runs are mediocre and not held in high regard. What's the fun of seeing the "best" characters DC has working together when few of them are actually at their best in any given issue? I think it's worth noting that even in the examples suggested where Justice League is/was good still had glaring blindspots. For instance, Justice League has never, EVER been good to Wonder Woman.

So what's the solution? I don't know. As said, the appeal of the Justice League is seeing the Big Guns working together, but having them chained to one another month in, month out in stories that don't demand their presence dilutes the idea and drains all the fun from it.

[K. Jones]

I think two of the stronger runs for me historically have been Morrison's and then more recently, honestly, Scott Snyder's. And the reason why is because they were more or less just using the logic or notion that every JLA story arc ... every time this seven-plus Super-Hero Team-Up happens for an arc, it would be an Event-Level Threat. But naturally keeping the volumes running in-between these kind of higher tier "big tales building into Cosmic Crisis Level" storylines tends to add a lot of filler and tread water just to have some artist or writer have their name on a boring book where all the franchise players appear on the cover and can make dollars, which isn't necessarily the best reason to keep a title ongoing.

But the initial topic really made me think about the original 1960 run, the Fox years, that kicked it all off, introduced an iconic JLA-Level Silver Age Villain every issue from the 60s through Wein and the rest in the 70s, and created the entire notion of Multiversal Crisis in Comics Narrative Storytelling with the Annual Multiversal Earth Crossover storyline. JLA and Avengers in the Sixties really felt cut from the same mold - different dynamics and characters, but similar types of threats. Evil Time Lord Guy ... "Anti-Member Villain Team" ... Cosmic Planet Killer ... so on, so forth. No shocker there, with the hive-mind/idea-osmosis and same writers and artists circles in the Sixties in NYC.

[Sutekh]

And not even just power levels. Theses characters are, by design, fully rounded protagonists of their own worlds, but in the Justice League, they have to get shallowed into narrow labels because on a team, they are merely one piece of a hole. So we end up the most basic, surface-level interpretations of these characters' personalities.

And I think that's ultimately why most JL runs are mediocre and not held in high regard. What's the fun of seeing the "best" characters DC has working together when few of them are actually at their best in any given issue? I think it's worth noting that even in the examples suggested where Justice League is/was good still had glaring blindspots. For instance, Justice League has never, EVER been good to Wonder Woman.

Yeah, this is true in the sense that Wonder Woman, Aquaman and Green Lantern, to pick some of the 'big seven' have HUGE complex setting pieces baked into them (Themiscrya, Atlantis, all of this freaking space sector), and any Justice League story is generally not going to be able to be relevant to all of their personal elements, causing the 'Justice League' version of these characters to be a stripped-down smaller 'lesser' version than we get to see in their solo books.

Inherently 'lesser' characters like Red Tornado or Hawkwoman, on the other hand, don't have to have their entire personal mythos / environment / supporting cast shoved off into the background and ignored, for them to be relevant on the League.

Marvel certainly does some of the same, with characters like Iron Man and Thor and Captain America, who also have their own books, and elements like Stark International or Asgard, that get ignored when they are Avengering, but the team also regularly has characters like Wasp and Vision and She-Hulk who don't have their own 'worlds' that have to be pruned away to squeeze them into the Avengers. The League, IMO, should always include not *just* the seven most solo-friendly 'big names' (some of them, certainly!) but leave some room for the Black Canaries, Booster Golds and Vixens, who don't necessarily have all sorts of stuff going on outside the League book that has to be selectively ignored to force-fit them onto the League.

Instead of a small subset of Wonder Woman or Aquaman or Green Lantern, stripped of many or even most of the vital character-defining elements from their own personal mythology, we could have all of Green Arrow or Vixen or Plastic Man.

[Doctor Know]

Sort of like how getting punched in the stomach is better than getting hit in the head with a brick.

Whedon Cut was rotten. The Snyder Cut was fresh, but next time we'll aim for "Certified Fresh:" Gotcha.

The thing with the Justice League is its appeal is in the concept of the "Big Guns" all working together. Although the roster has rotated and changed through the years, the core concept of the team is it's DC's biggest and most powerful characters teamed up to face some threat.

And that is also the problem with the Justice League, because you then have to contrive scenarios and threats that demand the biggest and most powerful characters to work together. That's why the team only works on major event stories and not a constant monthly routine.

The truth is these characters were not meant to stand side-by-side all the time and, frankly, they don't complement one another. There are few threats that Superman or Wonder Woman or the Flash or Green Lantern shouldn't be able to handle on their own, much less demand all of them at the same time. So what we end up getting on a semi-monthly basis is every character gets watered down and nerfed. And who the hell wants to read a story where Superman or Wonder Woman (among others) are only allowed to act at 50% capacity (or less) because the plot says so?
Or the opposite in Batman because the writers need to justify why the rich guy with no powers can hang with these god-like beings and not get crushed into paste...which is how we get the insufferable Bat-god.

And not even just power levels. Theses characters are, by design, fully rounded protagonists of their own worlds, but in the Justice League, they have to get shallowed into narrow labels because on a team, they are merely one piece of a hole. So we end up the most basic, surface-level interpretations of these characters' personalities.

And I think that's ultimately why most JL runs are mediocre and not held in high regard. What's the fun of seeing the "best" characters DC has working together when few of them are actually at their best in any given issue? I think it's worth noting that even in the examples suggested where Justice League is/was good still had glaring blindspots. For instance, Justice League has never, EVER been good to Wonder Woman.

So what's the solution? I don't know. As said, the appeal of the Justice League is seeing the Big Guns working together, but having them chained to one another month in, month out in stories that don't demand their presence dilutes the idea and drains all the fun from it.

I agree with a lot of what you said.

My solutions are two fold.
1. Rotate the roster frequently. Like the LOSH do. Every arc should have a new leader, and a new highlight character.
2. League exclusive villains going forward. No more the League fighting their archemeies from their solo titles. Create new villains and use old villains who don't get exposure much anymore.

I think two of the stronger runs for me historically have been Morrison's and then more recently, honestly, Scott Snyder's. And the reason why is because they were more or less just using the logic or notion that every JLA story arc ... every time this seven-plus Super-Hero Team-Up happens for an arc, it would be an Event-Level Threat. But naturally keeping the volumes running in-between these kind of higher tier "big tales building into Cosmic Crisis Level" storylines tends to add a lot of filler and tread water just to have some artist or writer have their name on a boring book where all the franchise players appear on the cover and can make dollars, which isn't necessarily the best reason to keep a title ongoing.

But the initial topic really made me think about the original 1960 run, the Fox years, that kicked it all off, introduced an iconic JLA-Level Silver Age Villain every issue from the 60s through Wein and the rest in the 70s, and created the entire notion of Multiversal Crisis in Comics Narrative Storytelling with the Annual Multiversal Earth Crossover storyline. JLA and Avengers in the Sixties really felt cut from the same mold - different dynamics and characters, but similar types of threats. Evil Time Lord Guy ... "Anti-Member Villain Team" ... Cosmic Planet Killer ... so on, so forth. No shocker there, with the hive-mind/idea-osmosis and same writers and artists circles in the Sixties in NYC.

I would say that early Silver Age Avengers run by Lee & Kirby, holds up a lot better than the early Silver Age JL by Gardner Fox. I think the biggest keepsake from the Gardner Fox years are the villains and crossovers into Earth 2 and Earth 3. A common complaint I see directed at the Silver Age JL, is that the members have no varying personality. They're the same character with different powers. I surmise the personality of characters like Hal, Barry, Arthur, Clark, Bruce and Diana didn't carry over from their solo titles, into the team book.


Is Scott Snyder's JL worthy of being in the top 5 space you think? I haven't read it from end to end myself.

[Kaijudo]

I think it's telling that the four eras that are mentioned as the Top Four, all of them had some kind of broader idea behind the League:

Bronze Age Satellite - The most iconic characters DC had at the time.
JLI - A lighter, more personality-driven "Not Ready For Prime Time Players" variation of the League
Morrison/Waid/Kelly - The return of the gods and leaning into the godhood notion of the characters
JLU - Doors wide open, utilize as many toys in the box as possible, and spotlight lesser known characters alongside the gods

Beyond those, what other iterations of the League have had core concepts/ideas behind the lineups, rather than simply being event-driven (like the New 52) or just going with a creator's favorites (Meltzer) or just sticking to the big guns for no other reason beyond them being the big guns? I think the JL stories/eras that are the most impactful are the ones that come out of being written for a specifically-designed kind of League, rather than something like Hitch's run where you had the big names checked off and then just put mundane and uninteresting sci-fi tropes in front of them. Robinson's team was originally supposed to be a second JL title, with a specific plan in place, before it got shanghaied into the main JL book and the concept diluted to more standard JL fare.

Ultimately, you have to start with the cast, have a real reason for having that cast there beyond "Batman/Superman/Wonder Woman sells books" or "It's not the Justice League without XYZ character" and then make the adventures that play into the specificity of that line-up. And that's when you have a memorable run.