The Justice Leagues - Legacy, History and Room For Improvement

[BatmanJones]

I apologize for offending you.

Sorry for the post, it was uncalled for. Rough day but I shouldn’t have been sharp with you.

[Johnny Thunders!]

Let’s look at the word legacy and the Justice League. The cover of the first Justice League inspired the first Fantastic Four cover. and the idea of multiverses and multiverses colliding. The Justice League have a huge legacy.

I just read the original post and I think the list of Justice League stories you mention are pretty good. I prefer Kingdom Come to Civil War, Final Crisis over Infinity Gauntlet, Crisis on Infinite Earths over all of Hickmans Avengers run. I love the Avengers but my favorite run is the Count Nefaria saga. As to the X Men, I like the Claremont Byrne Run and then I can take or leave almost anything else except for Mike Allred X Force and Morrison’s X-Men. With the FF, after Kirby, it’s a dry spell of books I love. I keep meaning to look through and find the titles on my old Justice League books but even then I do prefer Silver Age Legion comics to Silver Age Justice League. Good runs and bad runs all around and my classics might not be yours.

[Doctor Know]

Question 1: What X-Men or Avengers stories are actually known to the general audience, most of whom probably never picked up a comic book at this point, or most casual fans?

That's a bit of an odd and speculative question, but I'll humor you.

Days of Future Past, Phoenix/Dark Phoenix Saga, The Cure, Wolverine in Japan, Age of Apocalypse.

The Avengers first assemblage against Loki (original comic, EMH animated, MCU), Behold The Vision (origin and White Vision), Ultron Unlimited (although MCU used Age of Ultron for the movie title), Civil War, Secret Invasion, Infinity Gauntlet.


Thanks to the XCU, the MCU, the multiple animated adaptations for the X-Men and the Avengers. I would say these stories have the biggest mark in the general pop culture and among casual fans. In the same way how, most people know Star Wars over Star Trek. But people know about Wrath of Khan and the even odd rule.

Question 2: You said you could easily name 10 top Avengers runs. What are they, and are they runs that casual fans and the general audience would know?

I can't really speculate on what other people know or would be interested in. The accessibility of older runs by authors isn't great. The art and storytelling style of those old comics is a big turn off for a lot of people today.

But I will answer the first part of your question of what I think the top 10 runs and adaptations of the Avengers are.

1. Stan Lee and Jack Kirby Vol 1 #1-35 - With stories like the first assemblage against Loki, resurrection of Capt America, early duels against the Masters of Evil, Cap's Kooky Quartet, the Kang stories.

2. Roy Thomas, Don Heck, John Buscema Vol 1#36 -104 - Introduction of Ultron and Vision, Black Panther joins the team, the Kree-Skrull War with Captain Marvel and Rick Jones. Potentially one of the first multi-issue crossover events.

3. Steve Englehart and Buscema, Heck, Bob Brown and George Perez #105-150 - Celestial Madonna Saga, the Serpent Crown, Avengers/Defenders War.

4. Jim Shooter and George Perez Vol 1 #151 -177 - Bride of Ultron, Korvac Saga, and Fall and Trial of Yellowjacket (#212-214, 217, 222, 224, 227-230)

5. Roger Stern, John Buscema Vol 1 #227-287 - Under Siege, X-Men vs Avengers, Avengers vs Olympus (Greek Gods)

6. Steve Englehart and Al Milgrom West Coast Avengers - Vol 2 #1-41 - Lost in Space-Time and Phantom Rider's Revenge Quest against Mockingbird

7. John Byrne Avengers Vol 1 #305-318 and West Coast Avengers Vol 2 #42-62 - Vision Quest (White Vision and the beginning of Wanda's mental instability), and Acts of Vengeance.

8. Kurt Buisek and George Perez Avengers Vol 3 #1-56 - Avengers Forever, Ultron Unlimited, Kang Dynasty

9. Brian Michael Bendis and Various Artists across several titles - Avengers Vol 1 #500-503, New Avengers Vol 1 #1-64, New Avengers Vol 2 #1-34, Mighty Avengers Vol 1 #1-20, Dark Avengers Vol 1 #1-16 - Avengers Disassembled, House of M, Secret Invasion, Dark Reign, Siege, Avengers vs X-Men

10. Jonathan Hickman and Various Artists across several titles - Avengers Vol 5 #1-44, New Avengers Vol 3 #1-33, Avengers World #1-5, Infinity, Time Runs Out, Secret Wars (2015).

11. Avengers Earht's Mightiest Heroes The Animated Series - Lifting elements and stories mainly from Lee/Kirby, Thomas/Buscema, Jim Shooter, Buisek/Perez and Bendis' arcs from the comics. 52 episodes. Coincidently the same number of episodes as Bruce Timm's original JL animated series.

12. The Marvel Cinematic Universe - Nuff Said.



You asked for 10 and I gave you 12. I went above and beyond for you, mate. Now that I've answered your questions. Would you please answer the question I have been asking repeatedly since the opening post.

What is the Justice League run or adaptation (not already named) that deserves to be in the top 5?

[AJpyro]

I wanna throw in some words despite my lack of JL knowledge

1. The White Martians Attack from Morrison's JL run was put into the DCAU so it counts right?

2. I don't think Kingdom Come and Infinite Frontier count as JL stories and more of DCU stories and they are AUs.

3. The JL Silver age starring Starro might count since DCAU/Batman Beyond, The Suicide Squad, and Young Justice have featured them.

[TheBatman]

Days of Future Past, Phoenix/Dark Phoenix Saga, The Cure, Wolverine in Japan, Age of Apocalypse.

The Avengers first assemblage against Loki (original comic, EMH animated, MCU), Behold The Vision (origin and White Vision), Ultron Unlimited (although MCU used Age of Ultron for the movie title), Civil War, Secret Invasion, Infinity Gauntlet.

While most casual readers would know these stories, most of these aren't known by the general audience. Having aspects of your story adapted does not mean the casual audience actually knows the story the film/cartoon are adapting.

And 3 of those stories you listed for the Avengers are company crossovers, not Avengers stories.

I can't really speculate on what other people know or would be interested in. The accessibility of older runs by authors isn't great. The art and storytelling style of those old comics is a big turn off for a lot of people today.

But I will answer the first part of your question of what I think the top 10 runs and adaptations of the Avengers are.

After seeing the list, I'm once again failing to see how The Avengers have it so much better than the Justice League. Most of those runs would not be known or particularly loved by casual readers, and wouldn't really be known by the general audience.

You asked for 10 and I gave you 12. I went above and beyond for you, mate. Now that I've answered your questions. Would you please answer the question I have been asking repeatedly since the opening post.

What is the Justice League run or adaptation (not already named) that deserves to be in the top 5?

First, I'm going to say this: The JL has about as many notable and/or solid runs as any other major Comic Book franchise. The idea that there are a lack of solid JL runs makes for a particularly slanted premise, especially as you noted 10 solid runs in your OP alone.

Any JL run that deserves to be Top 5 has pretty much already been listed in the OP. In terms of cultural impact, "Superfriends" is more deserving a mention than the Snyder Cut or New 52 Cartoons.

[Doctor Know]

I wanna throw in some words despite my lack of JL knowledge

1. The White Martians Attack from Morrison's JL run was put into the DCAU so it counts right?

2. I don't think Kingdom Come and Infinite Frontier count as JL stories and more of DCU stories and they are AUs.

3. The JL Silver age starring Starro might count since DCAU/Batman Beyond, The Suicide Squad, and Young Justice have featured them.

1. Yes. The White Martian attack in Morrison's JLA is called "New World Order". The JL animated series adapted it in their premiere episodes, "Secret Origin".

2. When people think of Kingdom Come, they think of the main League characters fighting one another. Since there are few villains that actually play a role in the story, Luthor and Magog. Aren't present for the final showdown or the cause of the nuclear finale.

3. Starro will also have a place in the League's history. The mind-controlling, face hugging attributes we see from Starro in Batman Beyond (The Call), Morrison's JLA (22-23), YJ and the most recent Suicide Squad movie, can be traced to the Satellite era of the JL. Justice League of America vol 1 #189-190 from 1981. This would have been 2 years after Ridley Scott's Alien hit the box office in 1979. Starro is back with a new bag of tricks.

While most casual readers would know these stories, most of these aren't known by the general audience. Having aspects of your story adapted does not mean the casual audience actually knows the story the film/cartoon are adapting.

And 3 of those stories you listed for the Avengers are company crossovers, not Avengers stories.

Well, that's the thing about your question. We don't have a sample of the general audience to question and poll their responses. But like my Wrath of Khan example. I'm sure even casual fans have heard of those stories or seen them in some format.

@bold I doubt the general audience is going to know the difference. They see Cap, Thor, Iron Man and Thanos and they're going to think Avengers. Thanks to Endgame and Infinity War.

After seeing the list, I'm once again failing to see how The Avengers have it so much better than the Justice League. Most of those runs would not be known or particularly loved by casual readers, and wouldn't really be known by the general audience.

I never said the Avengers had it better than the JL. That was something you and BatmanJones kept bringing into this discussion. I named 4 top JL runs and asked people to submit suggestions for a 5th. 5 pages later and no one has done that yet.

I declared I could name 10 top Avengers runs. You asked me to list the Avengers runs, so I did. I can only speak myself. So I never tried to position this discussion as, "what I think the general audience or greater pop culture sees in Avengers comics over JL comics". Because what the general audience thinks of a top 5 JL run won't matter, if we can decide that there are even 5 worth discussing.

First, I'm going to say this: The JL has about as many notable and/or solid runs as any other major Comic Book franchise. The idea that there are a lack of solid JL runs makes for a particularly slanted premise, especially as you noted 10 solid runs in your OP alone.

Any JL run that deserves to be Top 5 has pretty much already been listed in the OP. In terms of cultural impact, [U]"Superfriends"/U] is more deserving a mention than the Snyder Cut or New 52 Cartoons.

I started this discussion and did the heavy lifting of listing what I felt were the universally understood greats and reached out to others to help me bolster the list up. I set a low bar of getting to a top 5. After providing 4. Somehow that has been interpreted as an attack on the JL. When all you and others could've have done was just answer the question with a worthy candidate for number 5.


You submitted the Superfriends for the a top 5 position. Great. Thank you for your input. I couldn't find a worthy 5th JL run and decided to go with Johns' JSA run from 1999-2008. Shazam, Hawkman, Hawkgirl, Dr. Fate, Mr. Terrific, Hippolyta and Power Girl play on both with both the League and JSA. Following their stories from JL and into the JSA for that 10 years was some of the best adventures those characters have ever been in. The crossed over with Morrison's JLA for Crisis Times Five, they were apart of the action for Infinite Crisis, 52, Blackest Night, Brightest Day. And had their own grand stories. Against Mordu, the Spectre, Black Adam, Thy Kingdom Come etc.


That's just me. I don't see Johns', Hitch's or Scott Snyder's runs on JL worthy of being in the top 5. No one was going to vote for the Detroit era. I doubt anyone would hold up Chuck Austen's JL as worthy. I am surprised no one made a case the for Silver Age Gardner Fox years. The DCAU movies that started with Crisis on Two Earths and ended with Apokolips War aren't the worst thing ever, but they're not the best. The JL/JLU set a high bar for that. If there was more variety of the stories the League experienced, I'd put that as the top 5. But I digress.


If you would like to talk about the Superfriends, I'm all for it.

[TheBatman]

I never said the Avengers had it better than the JL. That was something you and BatmanJones kept bringing into this discussion.

Because other people started comparisons to other franchises, including The Avengers, to begin with.

And if The Avengers don't have it better than the JL...why single out the JL in terms of supposedly having a lack of solid runs?

I started this discussion and did the heavy lifting of listing what I felt were the universally understood greats and reached out to others to help me bolster the list up. I set a low bar of getting to a top 5. After providing 4. Somehow that has been interpreted as an attack on the JL.

This does not paint the full picture. You weren't merely asking a question, you literally started with the words "I have been thinking about how few truly solid JL runs there are, despite the series running for more than 61 years.", and would pretty much agree with other posts unfavorably comparing the JL to other franchises like Avengers or X-Men.

Had you merely left it at "Hey, these seem to be the four most beloved JL runs. What's the fifth, in your opinion?", you wouldn't be seeing pushback, but you're asking a question while also continuously pushing a narrative of "The JL are lacking something in terms of comic runs/stories." Not everyone is going to agree with that narrative.

When all you and others could've have done was just answer the question with a worthy candidate for number 5.

And conversely, all you could've done was just ask the question, not also make an arguable statement on JL's comic history.

You submitted the Superfriends for the a top 5 position. Great. Thank you for your input. I couldn't find a worthy 5th JL run and decided to go with Johns' JSA run from 1999-2008.

JSA is not the JLA, but that's your opinion.

[Doctor Know]

Because other people started comparisons to other franchises, including The Avengers, to begin with.

And if The Avengers don't have it better than the JL...why single out the JL in terms of supposedly having a lack of solid runs?

Because it's universally understood that the Legion, Teen Titans and Justice Society are lost causes. There hasn't been a single TT run since Wolfman/Perez that hasn't tried to emulate the that formula. The closest thing was Johns' 2003 TT. Which was quite good, but fell off after he left in issue #51. No one is going to hold up Scott Lobdell's New 52 TT and no one is going to champion the Rebirth TT.

Legion of Superheroes is in the same boat. After Levitz, nothing comes close. And DC has spent the last 3 decades rebooting and reworking the Legion to get a functioning version. They book goes for a few years before get shelved again. Waiting for the next writer with a "new" idea for the teenage Justice League in the future.

The JSA dead. No one liked the New 52 interpretation. I can't recall if Rebirth promised a return of the JSA. But with Rebirth being the pre-Flashpoint continuity asserting itself. The absence of the JSA means TPTB gave up on it.


The League is good and worth fighting for. That's why you, I and everyone is this thread is talking about them.

This does not paint the full picture. You weren't merely asking a question, you literally started with the words "I have been thinking about how few truly solid JL runs there are, despite the series running for more than 61 years.", and would pretty much agree with other posts unfavorably comparing the JL to other franchises like Avengers or X-Men.

Had you merely left it at "Hey, these seem to be the four most beloved JL runs. What's the fifth, in your opinion?", you wouldn't be seeing pushback, but you're asking a question while also continuously pushing a narrative of "The JL are lacking something in terms of comic runs/stories." Not everyone is going to agree with that narrative.

Pointing out the JL needs more notable stories and acclaimed runs/adaptations shouldn't be a controversial statement. The best way to prove me wrong, would be to demonstrate it. Not just occupy a position that you disagree.

I did list what I thought the most famous stories casual fans and general audiences would know about the League. They were Tower of Babel/Doom and Throne of Atlantis. People should know about more of their adventures. What's it going to take to get the word out there and show people the best the JL has to offer?

That's also the point of this thread.

And conversely, all you could've done was just ask the question, not also make an arguable statement on JL's comic history.

You waited 5 pages to demonstrate I'm wrong by submitting the Superfriends as the 5th worthy candidate. If this was put on page one, things would've been different.

JSA is not the JLA, but that's your opinion.

I know the JSA isn't the JLA. It's about presentation. The best the League has to offer. The Johns' JSA run is LEAGUES (pun intended) better than his New 52 JL run. I think people should know that and be exposed to it. I explained why I felt the JSA was a worthy 5th candidate in the post you quoted and cropped. Please reread it and tell me if you agree or disagree.




Later I plan on listing the standout and notable stories, events and spin-offs from my big 5. The Satellite era, JLI, JLA, JSA, Justice League TAS and Justice League Unlimited. It's going to take sometime, like my above Avengers list took compiling, but I think it will be worth it. Keep submitting your recommendations. We have the Superfriends and JSA for the 5th and 6th spots. Let's make it a top 10 for the win.

[BatmanJones]

Later I plan on listing the standout and notable stories, events and spin-offs from my big 5. The Satellite era, JLI, JLA, JSA, Justice League TAS and Justice League Unlimited. It's going to take sometime, like my above Avengers list took compiling, but I think it will be worth it. Keep submitting your recommendations. We have the Superfriends and JSA for the 5th and 6th spots. Let's make it a top 10 for the win.

I'm still having a hard time understanding the rule of including versions from other media that have their own continuities that are distinct from those of the comics, yet refusing to include versions in the actual comics that are distinct from "this really happened/did not happen" of their continuity.

Firstly that's confusing to me for the obvious contradiction above. Secondly it's confusing that you have a rule against counting great JLA stories because they're outside of the ever-changing continuity of the comics.

Don't want to count Kingdom Come because it's about an alternate future? Why count Days of Future Past then? Because it was featured in the monthly run? They are both about alt-realities. But if Kingdom Come is too far away from the usual JLA story, what's the defense of not allowing The Nail, for one example?

Thirdly, first see firstly and secondly and then please answer the question as to how you could consider Superfriends of all things, which is against your every rule.

If you want to make this consistent, first eliminate every out-of-continuity story/stories which would absolutely include things like the JL animated series or anything in movies or other media that have their own internal continuities. (Did Hawkgirl have a romance with John Stewart? No. Was Black Vulcan a member of the JLA? Was Robin? Were the Marvin, Wendy, Wonderdog, or the Wonder Twins and Gleek? The list goes on.) Having eliminated those, there are multiple great runs during the Morrison/Waid fill-ins alone.

I'd have listed the ones I find most significant if I didn't think that the Elseworlds stuff was even better.

And let's always try to remember that continuity is imaginary. In the 50s and such, a lot of alt-realities were included in actual runs of Superman, Batman, and World's Finest. They were called "imaginary stories." As opposed to what? A riddle I like that demonstrates this point:

Q: Who would win in a fight between Superman and Batman?
A: They're drawings.

[BatmanJones]

Further, would you count Miller's The Dark Knight Returns as one of the best Batman stories? Most absolutely would but it fails to meet your criteria.

[Doctor Know]

I'm still having a hard time understanding the rule of including versions from other media that have their own continuities that are distinct from those of the comics, yet refusing to include versions in the actual comics that are distinct from "this really happened/did not happen" of their continuity.
Firstly that's confusing to me for the obvious contradiction above. Secondly it's confusing that you have a rule against counting great JLA stories because they're outside of the ever-changing continuity of the comics.

Don't want to count Kingdom Come because it's about an alternate future? Why count Days of Future Past then? Because it was featured in the monthly run? They are both about alt-realities. But if Kingdom Come is too far away from the usual JLA story, what's the defense of not allowing The Nail, for one example?

I stated in the OP I was looking for the greatest "runs" that carry the Justice League name. Not individual stories. Kingdom Come and the New Frontier for example are great JL tales. And I have repeated stated that in this thread. But Kingdom Come is only 4 issues long and in continuity with nothing but itself. Same with the New Frontier, which is 6 issues long. So, we have a Civil War among the JL, that has and never will be experienced or referenced by the mainline JL. We have a fantastic period piece origin for the JL. Superior to the recent New 52/Rebirth/Infinite Frontier origin; in the New Frontier. But the New Frontier is out of bounds for a starting point for the mainline JL.

While stories like Apokolips Now, No Man Escapes The Manhunters, Justice League of America #195-197, Prometheus Unbound, Earth 2, WW3, Rock of Ages, Tower of Babel, Obsidian Age, Golden Perfect, Throne of Atlantis, Darkseid War, etc. Are in continuity and matter in the grander scheme of the League's history. They're not just elseworlds one offs that never get continuations outside their own self-contained stories.

DOFP is in continuity with Byrne and Claremont's Uncanny X-Men run that ran for several years. It's not a "What-If" story Marvel published. It happened and was averted by the X-Men.

Thirdly, first see firstly and secondly and then please answer the question as to how you could consider Superfriends of all things, which is against your every rule.

There is no rule. I'm focusing on extended runs of JL iterations. The Superfriends wasn't my suggestion. That was TheBatman's. Looking it up, the Superfriends ran for 9 seasons (1973-1985) and 93 episodes. I'll wait for TheBatman to make his case for Superfriends being worthy of the top 5 representations of the League. But looking at the volume of episodes, it's not a bad place to start for consdieration.

If you want to make this consistent, first eliminate every out-of-continuity story/stories which would absolutely include things like the JL animated series or anything in movies or other media that have their own internal continuities. (Did Hawkgirl have a romance with John Stewart? No. Was Black Vulcan a member of the JLA? Was Robin? Were the Marvin, Wendy, Wonderdog, or the Wonder Twins and Gleek? The list goes on.) Having eliminated those, there are multiple great runs during the Morrison/Waid fill-ins alone.

Why would I do that? The Bruce Timmverse started in 1992 and ended in 2006. Starting it's own canon and continuity from Batman TAS (85 episodes), Superman TAS (54 Episodes), New Adventures of Batman (24 episodes), Batman Beyond (52 episodes), Justice League TAS (52 episodes), and Justice League Unlimited (39 episodes). With several crossovers from the Zeta Project TAS and Static Shock TAS. Both of which weren't done by Timm, but were produced by WB Animation. Like Avengers EMH, JL/JLU told many of it's stories using elements across the League's history in various media. They also told their own unique stories.

Please feel free to list those stories you mentioned during Morrison and Waid's turn on JLA. I included Morrison, Waid and Kelly's runs on JLA in my OP. If I'm missing some greats in your opinion, please post them and I will research.

And let's always try to remember that continuity is imaginary. In the 50s and such, a lot of alt-realities were included in actual runs of Superman, Batman, and World's Finest. They were called "imaginary stories." As opposed to what? A riddle I like that demonstrates this point:

Q: Who would win in a fight between Superman and Batman?
A: They're drawings.

That's fine, mate. This isn't a thread about the greatest JL stories ever told. Because no one said they didn't have grand and larger than life stories. I was looking for greatness inside continuity. Without having to list a bunch of different elseworlds and one-shots that neither connect or intersect with the main DC continuity or other elseworld stories.

Further, would you count Miller's The Dark Knight Returns as one of the best Batman stories? Most absolutely would but it fails to meet your criteria.

Sure, it's good. But I'm talking about the best and committed runs on JL.

If I was talking about the best Batman runs, it would fit my criteria and I would list it. Since Miller has committed serious amounts of time to crafting his own corner of DC. With Batman Year One, All Star Batman and Robin, TDKReturns, TDKSA, The Dark Knight III Master Race, Superman Year One.

[TheBatman]

That was TheBatman's. Looking it up, the Superfriends ran for 9 seasons (1973-1985) and 93 episodes. I'll wait for TheBatman to make his case for Superfriends being worthy of the top 5 representations of the League. But looking at the volume of episodes, it's not a bad place to start for consdieration.

I never said Superfriends was worthy top 5 consideration. You asked for worthy top 5 runs or adaptions that weren't mentioned already. I said all the top 5 worthy runs were already mentioned, but that in terms of cultural impact, Superfriends were more deserving of a mention than The Snyder Cut and the New 52 Animated films.

[Doctor Know]

I took some time and read and reread all of the original JLI and most of JL Europe. There were a lot of notable stories and arcs, as one would expect. Several of which I think could use greater exposure for pop culture relevance.


Thinking about my initial post and talking to people who have a passing familiarity with the JL. The stories they named manly come from the JLA (Morrison, Waid and Kelley) era. In my OP I listed them as one long run, but they should be looked as as three separate runs. Each is exceptionally strong and speaks with their own voice.


I'm set to begin rereading Johns' JSA run. Because I think that is a better contender than his JL run. I reread Johns' JL run and I was so disappointed. Jim Lee and later Finch's art work were stellar, but Johns really didn't utilize the full League to it's potential. Aquaman has the now iconic Throne of Atlantis story and Shazam has his new origin. Which have been adapted into big DCEU films. But everything else was a wash.

Supes and WW have nothing to do but play kissy face.
Bats has nothing to do.
GL gets kicked off the team super early.
Flash has nothing to do.
Cyborg has a little piece of the action in Forever Evil, but Luthor saved the day and carried that story.

The Super Seven who make up the League, and only 2 of the members walked away with anything substantive.

[Thor-Ul]

I can't deny that. The opening saga of JL run from Johns (the N52 league) was pretty lackuster. Spectacular, but narratively weak.

[Stanlos]

Is it time for the League roster to omit the Trinity and other more popular players. That will give us time to miss that iteration