The many *controversial* loves of Barbara Gordon/Batgirl/Oracle

[SiegePerilous02]

Dick/Babs is fine as a ship and they are my favorite pairing for either character.

The will they/won't they gets very annoying, but...that's not an inherent problem with them as characters or a romance. NO fictional couple getting trapped in that holding pattern for a serialized mythos designed to go on indefinitely and never change would be immune to stagnation. If not Babs, the same applies to Kory or whoever else they make up and decide to waste our time with.

Yep. I think the Bruce/Babs thing in the DCAU and later the Killing Joke was a reference to that. If people didn't get so reactionary about especially in relation to their shipping, they might have realized it for what it was rather than attributing it to some weird fetish on the part of the animators.

Yup. I think that people are often treat their preferred version of the character is the only "proper" version, when that's not really the case. In some versions of Batman, she's more suitable for Dick, in others, she's more suitable for Bruce, and in some versions, she's a college grad who could end up with either one.

I think that would be easier to buy if Babs was the same age she was pre-Crisis in the DCAU. But they made her Dick's age (if not slightly younger- she's still in college and living in a dorm in the Mystery of the Batwoman DTV and Dick already graduated) and had already dated Dick. So Bruce was sleeping with his "son's" ex-girlfriend. Who is also Jim's college aged daughter while Bruce is in his late 30s. And she functions as his protege and main partner after Dick leaves. That is a much different dynamic with a power imbalance that wasn't present in the Adam West and pre-Crisis days as far as I'm aware, where Barbara was older than Dick and between Bruce and Dick in age.

If they were aiming for replicating that, they really whiffed it.

Actually the entire point of those things were to be reactionary. They were done to get a reaction out of the audience. With today’s sensibilities though no way either flys anymore.

Yeah, Timm has been upfront that they did it because it was unexpected and "wrong." But also didn't lead to anything good between the characters nor was it really examined in depth on screen, so it comes off as just shock value for the sake of it. Considering Timm's tendency to pair Bruce with not only his standard love interests but also fucking Lois Lane and Wonder Woman, I think certain readings of his intentions are somewhat warranted.

Having her bang Bruce in TKJ and seemingly be motivated to become Batgirl just to get his attention while also not being very good at the job and then of course going through the plot events of TKJ was taking a story that already treated her horribly and somehow finding a lower place to sink to.

[Majesty]

What about the guy she married in Batman Beyond? They should port him over.

She married Bruce initially. Then they broke up when he wouldn't retire from being Batman. She tells Terry this over a cup of coffee.

After her and Bruce broke up, she got with an officer named Sam Young which is who she wound up marrying.

So in the Timmverse of BTAS and Batman Beyond. Barbara dates Grayson(puppy love according to her). Marries Bruce.
She then breaks up with Bruce when he cannot stop being Batman.
Then she gets with and marries Sam Young.

[Aahz]

I've gone from being slightly annoyed with the Dick/Babs ship to actively disliking it. It's very hard to buy the whole Babs has always been Dicks soulmate bit when she keeps trying to pork his kid brother.

To be fair, at least the first time they thought that Dick was dead, and back than Jason was (because of the 5 year timeline in the new 52) not that much younger than Dick and Barbara.

There has been anyway this wired tendency that goes imo even back to pre flashpoint, that Jason is often written like he was close in age to Dick and his generation, while he should be actually not much older than Tim (and at least pre flashpoint younger than Cass).

[John Venus]

She married Bruce initially. Then they broke up when he wouldn't retire from being Batman. She tells Terry this over a cup of coffee.

After her and Bruce broke up, she got with an officer named Sam Young which is who she wound up marrying.

So in the Timmverse of BTAS and Batman Beyond. Barbara dates Grayson(puppy love according to her). Marries Bruce.
She then breaks up with Bruce when he cannot stop being Batman.
Then she gets with and marries Sam Young.

You need to rewatch that scene again. Barbara didn't marry Bruce. They were crime fighting partners and after Dick left and Tim *ahem* retired, they were the only one left.

From what we know from the show, Babs and Dick dated initially. Then they broke up at some point. Babs and Bruce had some kind of relationship at some point that didn't last either. Then she married Sam Young and they look like they've been married for years based on their interactions.

[John Venus]

I think that would be easier to buy if Babs was the same age she was pre-Crisis in the DCAU. But they made her Dick's age (if not slightly younger- she's still in college and living in a dorm in the Mystery of the Batwoman DTV and Dick already graduated) and had already dated Dick. So Bruce was sleeping with his "son's" ex-girlfriend. Who is also Jim's college aged daughter while Bruce is in his late 30s. And she functions as his protege and main partner after Dick leaves. That is a much different dynamic with a power imbalance that wasn't present in the Adam West and pre-Crisis days as far as I'm aware, where Barbara was older than Dick and between Bruce and Dick in age.

If they were aiming for replicating that, they really whiffed it.

Yeah, Timm has been upfront that they did it because it was unexpected and "wrong." But also didn't lead to anything good between the characters nor was it really examined in depth on screen, so it comes off as just shock value for the sake of it. Considering Timm's tendency to pair Bruce with not only his standard love interests but also fucking Lois Lane and Wonder Woman, I think certain readings of his intentions are somewhat warranted.

Having her bang Bruce in TKJ and seemingly be motivated to become Batgirl just to get his attention while also not being very good at the job and then of course going through the plot events of TKJ was taking a story that already treated her horribly and somehow finding a lower place to sink to.

In the B:TAS episode 'Batgirl Returns', we learn that Babs has a crush on Batman. The way she talked about it in the cafe scene in Batman Beyond seemed to imply that the relationship happened after Dick left. In the Batwoman movie, even Bruce seemed uncomfortable with the romance idea since he comically cuts her off when she brings it up then he goes on to date another woman that's closer to his age.

Before that terrible Kyle Higgins issue of Batman Beyond, I was perfectly fine with assuming that Bruce and Babs had a couple of one night stands and both agreed to never talk about it afterwards. Dick left Gotham, Tim was retired and at some point Alfred, Leslie and Gordon, so I can see them coming together due to mutual pain and then breaking it off later on.

I agree with Luke, as long as he doesn’t get with other Bat-women like Huntress, Selina or any of the BoP like Dinah. Even Dick can’t claim that.

Why not? If he is compatible with other characters then a potential romance should be explored. I don't think he is compatible with Selina and she is with Bruce but if there is something there worth exploring between him and Huntress or even Dinah, then I wouldn't mind a writer taking the initiative.

Luke should have his romantic life explored more. It's Dick who needs to keep his pants on.

[Daedalus]

She married Bruce initially. Then they broke up when he wouldn't retire from being Batman. She tells Terry this over a cup of coffee.

After her and Bruce broke up, she got with an officer named Sam Young which is who she wound up marrying.

So in the Timmverse of BTAS and Batman Beyond. Barbara dates Grayson(puppy love according to her). Marries Bruce.
She then breaks up with Bruce when he cannot stop being Batman.
Then she gets with and marries Sam Young.

As John Venus posts above, she cannot have married Bruce. This is even further evidenced once you get the full chronology of events in Batman Beyond 2.0:
1. Barbara and Dick take a a break from their many years of on-again off-again relationship when Dick leaves Gotham for Bludhaven.
2. During his absence, Barbara had a relationship/affair with Bruce, and she gets pregnant. It is implied that it was Barbara's decision that it never went any further.
3. The flashback from Return of the Joker happens. Tim is kidnapped by the Joker and breaks under his captivity.
4. Dick feels guilty about not being there for Tim and returns to Gotham.
5. Dick and Barbara get back together, and they're thinking of marriage.
6. Barbara discovers she is pregnant, and tells Bruce. Bruce promises to let her tell Dick however she feels best.
7. Barbara gets into a street-brawl to force a miscarriage before telling Dick, but it's all for nothing, because Bruce is at the same time telling Dick everything.
8. Dick punches Bruce and leaves Gotham.
9. Barbara eventually marries Sam Young.

Happy to be corrected if anyone has a stronger memory, but I think that's how it goes down within the DCAU. For this timeline to work, Barbara and Bruce could never have dated long, much less gotten married.

[Micael]

I think that would be easier to buy if Babs was the same age she was pre-Crisis in the DCAU. But they made her Dick's age (if not slightly younger- she's still in college and living in a dorm in the Mystery of the Batwoman DTV and Dick already graduated) and had already dated Dick. So Bruce was sleeping with his "son's" ex-girlfriend. Who is also Jim's college aged daughter while Bruce is in his late 30s. And she functions as his protege and main partner after Dick leaves. That is a much different dynamic with a power imbalance that wasn't present in the Adam West and pre-Crisis days as far as I'm aware, where Barbara was older than Dick and between Bruce and Dick in age.

If they were aiming for replicating that, they really whiffed it.

I don't know even in the DCAU Barbara wasn't really treated as a sidekick and she didn't seem to look up to Bruce as a mentor either. They kinda treated their dynamic as a sort of partnership where she was doing her own thing and would occasionally work alongside Batman and Robin. Let's not forget that Dick himself didn't even know Barbara was Batgirl until much later which shows us that they weren't that connected.
I don't know if it was ever established how old Barbara was or what level of education she was in. I've heard some people claim that Bruce was old enough to be her father and quite frankly I never got that impression in fact I could see DCAU Gordon with his white hair being old enough to be Bruce's father.

[Immortal Weapon]

Dick/Babs is fine as a ship and they are my favorite pairing for either character.

The will they/won't they gets very annoying, but...that's not an inherent problem with them as characters or a romance. NO fictional couple getting trapped in that holding pattern for a serialized mythos designed to go on indefinitely and never change would be immune to stagnation. If not Babs, the same applies to Kory or whoever else they make up and decide to waste our time with.





I think that would be easier to buy if Babs was the same age she was pre-Crisis in the DCAU. But they made her Dick's age (if not slightly younger- she's still in college and living in a dorm in the Mystery of the Batwoman DTV and Dick already graduated) and had already dated Dick. So Bruce was sleeping with his "son's" ex-girlfriend. Who is also Jim's college aged daughter while Bruce is in his late 30s. And she functions as his protege and main partner after Dick leaves. That is a much different dynamic with a power imbalance that wasn't present in the Adam West and pre-Crisis days as far as I'm aware, where Barbara was older than Dick and between Bruce and Dick in age.

If they were aiming for replicating that, they really whiffed it.



Yeah, Timm has been upfront that they did it because it was unexpected and "wrong." But also didn't lead to anything good between the characters nor was it really examined in depth on screen, so it comes off as just shock value for the sake of it. Considering Timm's tendency to pair Bruce with not only his standard love interests but also fucking Lois Lane and Wonder Woman, I think certain readings of his intentions are somewhat warranted.

Having her bang Bruce in TKJ and seemingly be motivated to become Batgirl just to get his attention while also not being very good at the job and then of course going through the plot events of TKJ was taking a story that already treated her horribly and somehow finding a lower place to sink to.

Timm never paired Bruce with Wonder Woman. The most they ever got were teases. Nothing came of it.

Paul Dini made Zatanna and Bruce a thing.

[AmiMizuno]

I love Dickbabs but I wonder how would you guys feel if Dc decided to go back to exploring Ted Kord and Babs?

[Micael]

How old is Ted Kord supposed to be? I can see some fans not liking her having a relationship with him if he's close to Bruce's age.

[Gaius]

Timm never paired Bruce with Wonder Woman. The most they ever got were teases. Nothing came of it.

Paul Dini made Zatanna and Bruce a thing.

And those teases were all unnecessary Batman ego stroking that makes DCAU Wonder Woman a better character if they were completely excised.

They also only went those teases because they didn't want do Wonder Woman/Superman. Because the thought she's not attracted to either them, never occurred to anyone on the production team apparently

[Daedalus]

Timm never paired Bruce with Wonder Woman. The most they ever got were teases. Nothing came of it.

Paul Dini made Zatanna and Bruce a thing.

Bruce was flirtatiously with Wonder Woman and Zatanna (which they reciprocated/initiated) throughout Timm's shows, which were aimed at children. We couldn't really get more than that.

I love Dickbabs but I wonder how would you guys feel if Dc decided to go back to exploring Ted Kord and Babs?

Not really interested. Ted is fun when he's around Booster Gold, and I love their goofy friendship, but he doesn't really fit in the the batcorner of the DC-universe. Integrating would be very difficult to accomplish organically.

[Will Evans]

So is Jason Bard a lost cause?

[Restingvoice]

I don't know even in the DCAU Barbara wasn't really treated as a sidekick and she didn't seem to look up to Bruce as a mentor either. They kinda treated their dynamic as a sort of partnership where she was doing her own thing and would occasionally work alongside Batman and Robin. Let's not forget that Dick himself didn't even know Barbara was Batgirl until much later which shows us that they weren't that connected.
I don't know if it was ever established how old Barbara was or what level of education she was in. I've heard some people claim that Bruce was old enough to be her father and quite frankly I never got that impression in fact I could see DCAU Gordon with his white hair being old enough to be Bruce's father.

She graduated from college sometime in of the episode in the series. I don't remember when.

[John Venus]

I don't know even in the DCAU Barbara wasn't really treated as a sidekick and she didn't seem to look up to Bruce as a mentor either. They kinda treated their dynamic as a sort of partnership where she was doing her own thing and would occasionally work alongside Batman and Robin. Let's not forget that Dick himself didn't even know Barbara was Batgirl until much later which shows us that they weren't that connected.
I don't know if it was ever established how old Barbara was or what level of education she was in. I've heard some people claim that Bruce was old enough to be her father and quite frankly I never got that impression in fact I could see DCAU Gordon with his white hair being old enough to be Bruce's father.

That's because in one of the episodes (I think it was her introductory episode, maybe 'Heat of Steel') Bruce remarks 'Barbara you've grown!' which leads to the impression that he known her as a child.

She's in college when we meet her in B:TAS, same as Dick Grayson. They are implied to be close in age. By the time TNBA rolls out, she is an adult and working in the police station.

I love Dickbabs but I wonder how would you guys feel if Dc decided to go back to exploring Ted Kord and Babs?

I wouldn't mind.

How old is Ted Kord supposed to be? I can see some fans not liking her having a relationship with him if he's close to Bruce's age.

Older than Dick but younger than Bruce.

He and Babs flirted a lot in Dixon's BoP and I think one of the JLI comics and Booster Gold's series touched on it.