Amazing Spider-Man #72

[Celgress]

I don't like this retcon but at least the plot is finally moving in a direction where everyone didn't already expect to happen. Maybe now we can have a different explanation on Kindred that isn't "Pre-OMD Harry." Something which you all have been guessing for months!

I agree with you. I don't like the fact Mephisto is becoming so deeply ingrained into the overall Spider-Man narrative. Spider-Man has typically been about science and science fiction, not magic. The Totem crap was the first time magic was inserted into the mythos and Peter became a type of "chosen one" (the laziest of all superhero tropes, IMO), a development I hated at the time (along with organic webbing and the "Other" lol). I'd prefer if Peter wasn't born great or destined to become great, rather he became great through struggle and learning from his mistakes, aka his classic character status quo.

[NC_Yankee]

I agree with you. I don't like the fact Mephisto is becoming so deeply ingrained into the overall Spider-Man narrative. Spider-Man has typically been about science and science fiction, not magic. The Totem crap was the first time magic was inserted into the mythos and Peter became a type of "chosen one" (the laziest of all superhero tropes, IMO), a development I hated at the time (along with organic webbing and the "Other" lol). I'd prefer if Peter wasn't born great or destined to become great, rather he became great through struggle and learning from his mistakes, aka his classic character status quo.

I happen to agree with you about Peter and that is why I despise The Other. That said, I just question what exactly is the motivation of Mephisto? I understand about the Beyonder and unless he is Kindred and he his is part of the Mephisto versus Beyonder game why Spider or spider related characters? There are plenty of characters far more dangerous to him then say Peter or Miles. Dr Strange, Thor, Hulk and Silver Surfer to name a few. Also why make someone in Kindred who is so powerful, he is a threat to Kindred himself? Not to mention making a deal with Norman prior to OMD? This goes to my theory about who is Kindred and that is actually Norman. We know he died in ASM 122 and was brought back years later in a very questionable way. Maybe the Norman we see now is a clone, and in exchange for serving Mephisto Norman got powers and not only is he messing up PeterÂ’s life but is actually trying to take over Hell ( which is why he talked about whoever kills Spider-Man will be his assistant? Yet if he wanted Peter dead permanently he could have simply not brought him back and called it a day). That kind of evil calculating mind has never been Harry but it certainly fits Norman.

[Spiderfan001]

I agree with you. I don't like the fact Mephisto is becoming so deeply ingrained into the overall Spider-Man narrative. Spider-Man has typically been about science and science fiction, not magic. The Totem crap was the first time magic was inserted into the mythos and Peter became a type of "chosen one" (the laziest of all superhero tropes, IMO), a development I hated at the time (along with organic webbing and the "Other" lol). I'd prefer if Peter wasn't born great or destined to become great, rather he became great through struggle and learning from his mistakes, aka his classic character status quo.

I think JMS handled it perfectly, it doesn't matter if he's science or magic.And him being the greatest totem in some he's the first who fought the inheritor and didn't die.Also it makes sense he's at the centre of the web and the best of them.And he's kinda is and is gonna be in the future the best hero, said by many.

Modern comics should be ignored sometimes imo, Ik Krakoa pissed some classic X-fans as well.I just read stories I dislike as their own thing.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

I think JMS handled it perfectly, it doesn't matter if he's science or magic.And him being the greatest totem in some he's the first who fought the inheritor and didn't die.Also it makes sense he's at the centre of the web and the best of them.And he's kinda is and is gonna be in the future the best hero, said by many.

Modern comics should be ignored sometimes imo, Ik Krakoa pissed some classic X-fans as well.I just read stories I dislike as their own thing.

Agreed 100%.

The Totem stuff is a lot like Morrison's Batgod - it's what people did with that idea after its creator left that became a problem, and not what that initial creator did with it.

[IamnotJudasTraveller]

I'm not sure if it was in this thread or a different one, but someone brought up something I also thought of when reading it - they're basically trying to 'rehab' Mephisto's image to try to make OMD look more palatable a full decade and change after the fact, what with spreading it to multiple corners of the Spider mythos (Ben, Miles, Otto, now Norman)- especially when everyone was aware that one of the Clone Saga endings involved Mephisto and the editors veto'd it on not fitting Spider-Man (but Quesada would have his way no matter, so help him God he did).

I personally don't see OMD being undone when this run ends. There's so much to sort through from this last revelation alone and how often this run and decompression went hand in hand that I believe it's just going to come down to things being acknowledged and some sort of World War Mephisto being teased sometime in the future, since I think Aaron is still doing something or other with his own setups trying to make him the 'ultimate' big bad of Marvel.

That and it'll allow them to make a lot of tie-ins.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

I didn't expect OMD to be undone during Spencer's run, either. It did seem that way for a while before we knew who Kindred was and there were speculations he might have been the pre-OMD Spider-Man, but it dragged on for too long and there were too many teases.

I suspect the day when OMD is undone, it will be direct and we will kinda know the writer's intent going in (if not, it will become apparent pretty early on).

I'm not sure if it was in this thread or a different one, but someone brought up something I also thought of when reading it - they're basically trying to 'rehab' Mephisto's image to try to make OMD look more palatable a full decade and change after the fact, what with spreading it to multiple corners of the Spider mythos (Ben, Miles, Otto, now Norman)- especially when everyone was aware that one of the Clone Saga endings involved Mephisto and the editors veto'd it on not fitting Spider-Man (but Quesada would have his way no matter, so help him God he did).

I personally don't see OMD being undone when this run ends. There's so much to sort through from this last revelation alone and how often this run and decompression went hand in hand that I believe it's just going to come down to things being acknowledged and some sort of World War Mephisto being teased sometime in the future, since I think Aaron is still doing something or other with his own setups trying to make him the 'ultimate' big bad of Marvel.

That and it'll allow them to make a lot of tie-ins.

I think so too. They're trying to normalize it.

At the same time, I think people greatly overestimate the extent to which time normalizes things. Yeah, time can normalize things to an extent, but not always and not completely. Marvel's been banking on the "new gen" being accepting of OMD for 13 years now, and so far it hasn't happened even a bit.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I'm not sure if it was in this thread or a different one, but someone brought up something I also thought of when reading it - they're basically trying to 'rehab' Mephisto's image to try to make OMD look more palatable a full decade and change after the fact, what with spreading it to multiple corners of the Spider mythos (Ben, Miles, Otto, now Norman)- especially when everyone was aware that one of the Clone Saga endings involved Mephisto and the editors veto'd it on not fitting Spider-Man (but Quesada would have his way no matter, so help him God he did).

I personally don't see OMD being undone when this run ends. There's so much to sort through from this last revelation alone and how often this run and decompression went hand in hand that I believe it's just going to come down to things being acknowledged and some sort of World War Mephisto being teased sometime in the future, since I think Aaron is still doing something or other with his own setups trying to make him the 'ultimate' big bad of Marvel.

That and it'll allow them to make a lot of tie-ins.

Mephisto was always a s--ty villain on the Marvel Cosmic side, just a dumb stupid design in visual and costume terms, and essentially zero personality except for a vague dripping of sleaze in every panel appearance. He's a terrible version of the Mephistopheles character in the Doctor Faustus folk legends who was always a weirdly sympathetic figure.

His biggest story move before was to be such a loathsome heel that Doctor Doom came off as a good guy against him. In the Marvel Cosmic side, Mephisto is not as cool as Galactus, Thanos, Dormammu, Phoenix, Annihilus.

The problem with Mephisto is that the biggest and most famous story he's ever been involved in is One More Day. Nobody cares about Jason Aaron's run which uses Mephisto, but advertise a Spider-Man versus Mephisto fight with Vengeance for OMD and you will turn heads and get numbers.

I didn't expect OMD to be undone during Spencer's run, either. It did seem that way for a while before we knew who Kindred was and there were speculations he might have been the pre-OMD Spider-Man, but it dragged on for too long and there were too many teases.

I suspect the day when OMD is undone, it will be direct and we will kinda know the writer's intent going in (if not, it will become apparent pretty early on).

Same. I always felt it was wrong to burden Spencer with too-much expectations.

My guess was always that the most likely thing would be that Peter remembers the deal and remembers the marriage. Even that's not a certainty. Since just doing that would be a huge huge thing to do in the Spider-Man comics now.

[Celgress]

Agreed 100%.

The Totem stuff is a lot like Morrison's Batgod - it's what people did with that idea after its creator left that became a problem, and not what that initial creator did with it.

My thoughts exactly.

[Spiderfan001]

Agreed 100%.

The Totem stuff is a lot like Morrison's Batgod - it's what people did with that idea after its creator left that became a problem, and not what that initial creator did with it.

Yeah, I think if done well it can work.
But at the end of the day most retconning stuff isn't a good idea.

Just take those concepts and read them as their own thing, headcanon is bliss.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

Yeah, I think if done well it can work.
But at the end of the day most retconning stuff isn't a good idea.

Just take those concepts and read them as their own thing, headcanon is bliss.

Exactly, especially in 616. It's a lot easier to ignore continuity there than in other universes, especially if they're outside of comics.

[IamnotJudasTraveller]

I think so too. They're trying to normalize it.

At the same time, I think people greatly overestimate the extent to which time normalizes things. Yeah, time can normalize things to an extent, but not always and not completely. Marvel's been banking on the "new gen" being accepting of OMD for 13 years now, and so far it hasn't happened even a bit.

This reminded me that provided I get the amount of free time I'd need I wanted to make an OMD "retrospective" - after all, at first, Marvel even tried to push the nonsense that "there never was a deal" and that just by Mary Jane saying "leave Peter alone for the rest of his days" somehow that provoked a time loop that makes Mephisto unable to go back on his word.

Mefuckingphisto.

That and the whole behind the scenes creator hub-a-hub that made single Spider-Man an apparently irresistible force.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

This reminded me that provided I get the amount of free time I'd need I wanted to make an OMD "retrospective" - after all, at first, Marvel even tried to push the nonsense that "there never was a deal" and that just by Mary Jane saying "leave Peter alone for the rest of his days" somehow that provoked a time loop that makes Mephisto unable to go back on his word.

Mefuckingphisto.

That and the whole behind the scenes creator hub-a-hub that made single Spider-Man an apparently irresistible force.

I actually did a post recently that jotted down and tracked all that's publicly known about OMD.
https://elvingsmusings.wordpress.com...-one-more-day/

While offering some speculations about the "real" sources for that story. Take a looksee.

The main thing is that the idea to use Mephisto was never JMS. That seemed to have been Quesada's choice or rather recommended to Quesada by someone.

There's a lot of mystery about OMD. I remember when BND rolled out there was initially a mystery or sense that Mary Jane somehow remembered the marriage and the deal but then OMIT nullified that and did something worse. To be honest, I feel at least someone should remember, like the Psycho-Pirate (the only character after the COIE to remember the Pre-Crisis DC Universe).

There's also the fact that people at Marvel clenched up and refused to talk much about it in real terms.

[Snoop Dogg]

this is a good retcon because the green goblin origin doesn't make any sense

[NC_Yankee]

I didn't expect OMD to be undone during Spencer's run, either. It did seem that way for a while before we knew who Kindred was and there were speculations he might have been the pre-OMD Spider-Man, but it dragged on for too long and there were too many teases.

I suspect the day when OMD is undone, it will be direct and we will kinda know the writer's intent going in (if not, it will become apparent pretty early on).



I think so too. They're trying to normalize it.

At the same time, I think people greatly overestimate the extent to which time normalizes things. Yeah, time can normalize things to an extent, but not always and not completely. Marvel's been banking on the "new gen" being accepting of OMD for 13 years now, and so far it hasn't happened even a bit.

Time normalizes nothing with me. I hated OMD then and I hate it even more now. Why? Because there is a teenaged Spider-Man ( Miles) there is no justification for that story. The only reason it has not been erased is Marvel thinks they are masterminds who can turn a lump of coal into diamonds. Guess what? If they use Norman as a way to offset OMD, that is nothing more then “Lipstick on a pig.” The story sucks and the idea behind the story sucks even more,

[Celgress]

this is a good retcon because the green goblin origin doesn't make any sense

I prefer a villain turned evil by their own ambitious reckless actions, or in this case experiments (a play on hubris), rather than by an outside force with its own agenda, but that's just me.