Do You Want The DCEU To Be Hard Rebooted?

[RobinGA]

As you might imagine we are divided as to what we feel the problem might be with
DC right now. Some people love the new direction, some hate it. There are a
few Snyder fans popping up from time to time. Then a debate about legacy characters,
diversity, other things.

I wish that we didn't talk so much about Marvel. But I'm the only one who feels that way,
as they evidently are the measuring stick. Personally, I find their crappy movies and TV shows
what should be avoided at all costs. But I know many people on these forums won't be convinced
of that while they make money.

What disturbs me more than anything else about the DCEU is the quality. It can be so much better
than it is right now. It isn't about the special effects, the staged, but oh so predictable fight scenes.
It is about the words, the ideas, concepts that are explored through dialogue. That has always been
DC's strength, to be honest. Which is why I remain optimistic, because ultimately the non-blockbuster
movie will allow for a different kind of movie that will appeal to people on a deeper level.

[Citizen Kane]

I don't see a reason for WB to completely reboot the DCEU. Most of the actors involved are well cast, and I believe WB just needs to slow it all down a few tads and take time to properly craft the universe. And as cool as Matt Reeves' Batman looks, they really need to stop with the "elseworld" movies. Pick one universe and role with it, otherwise rebrand like Marvel's "What If".

[Vakanai]

I don't see a reason for WB to completely reboot the DCEU. I like most of the actors involved, and I think WB just needs to slow it all down and take time to properly craft the universe. And as cool as Matt Reeves' Batman looks, they really need to stop with the "elseworld" movies. Pick one universe and role with it, otherwise rebrand like Marvel's "What If".

There's literally been two elseworlds if you include Joker. Is like 1 out of every 5 or 6 movies not being in the shared universe really that big a deal?

[Citizen Kane]

There's literally been two elseworlds if you include Joker. Is like 1 out of every 5 or 6 movies not being in the shared universe really that big a deal?

Even having only two conveys that WB hasn't decided what it wants to do with their own universe. It's frustrating and, for the average moviegoer, probably confusing. I'd prefer they just choose a universe and stick with it.

[Vakanai]

Even having only two conveys that WB hasn't decided what it wants to do with their own universe. It's frustrating and, for the average moviegoer, probably confusing. I'd prefer they just choose a universe and stick with it.

I can't help but feel like this is wrong - WB has decided what it wants to do - what it wants is, to a greater or lesser extent, is a multiverse. And even then, it's not like they're unleashing a horde of multiverse movies that might confuse people - the only characters getting movies outside of the DCEU are Joker, Batman, and Superman - aka the characters they fucked up so hard it's either reboot them or don't use them, and they're not waiting until the end of the DCEU to get Batman and Superman movies out so frankly it's a necessary move.

[Citizen Kane]

I can't help but feel like this is wrong - WB has decided what it wants to do - what it wants is, to a greater or lesser extent, is a multiverse. And even then, it's not like they're unleashing a horde of multiverse movies that might confuse people - the only characters getting movies outside of the DCEU are Joker, Batman, and Superman - aka the characters they fucked up so hard it's either reboot them or don't use them, and they're not waiting until the end of the DCEU to get Batman and Superman movies out so frankly it's a necessary move.

They want to copy Marvel and make billions of dollars—that much is clear. How they've gone about that has shown it to be an aimless endeavor. At one moment, they want a Snyderverse; then it's gone; then it's back again but not really. Shazam comes out, and it seems almost entirely unrelated to the rest of the DCEU, even going as far as to set up its own superhero team. Now, an "elseworld" Joker and Batman exist, and apparently, they aren't in a shared universe together either. The problem lies within the fact that WB still wants to foster a shared universe amongst all this chaos. If they can't care enough to show some consistency in their own universe, how do they expect their audience to care enough to consistently return to the theatre to watch their films? I, for one, stopped caring, and I just stopped watching.

[Vakanai]

They want to copy Marvel and make billions of dollars—that much is clear. How they've gone about that has shown it to be an aimless endeavor. At one moment, they want a Snyderverse; then it's gone; then it's back again but not really. Shazam comes out, and it seems almost entirely unrelated to the rest of the DCEU, even going as far as to set up its own superhero team. Now, an "elseworld" Joker and Batman exist, and apparently, they aren't in a shared universe together either. The problem lies within the fact that WB still wants to foster a shared universe amongst all this chaos. If they can't care enough to show some consistency in their own universe, how do they expect their audience to care enough to consistently return to the theatre to watch their films? I, for one, stopped caring, and I just stopped watching.

Snyderverse is gone because it didn't resonate with audiences - and it wasn't "back" again, the SnyderCut wasn't WB but AT&T's decision. And how was Shazam unrelated when they reference Superman and Batman, and Superman even made an end credits cameo? Like, that one makes no sense, how is Shazam unrelated? It clearly flew it's connected universe flag high. The elseworld Joker happened to make a billion dollars - the only DCEU movie to do as well has been Aquaman. And a lot of people are excited for The Batman.

It doesn't feel like "all this chaos" when you look at facts - Snyder's vision wasn't connecting with fans, the SnyderCut got through via AT&T and streaming number dreams, you're knock on Shazam doesn't really make sense to me. Only two movies by WB are outside continuity, and one of those was their most profitable film.

What do you mean by consistency in their shared universe? The post-Snyder DCEU films have mostly been consistent and better.

[Citizen Kane]

and it wasn't "back" again

They released Snyder's cut of the movie. How would the general audience that's not aware of the shenanigans behind the scenes know any difference?

And how was Shazam unrelated when they reference Superman and Batman, and Superman even made an end credits cameo?

Kick-Ass made references to DC, too. Doesn't make it a connected universe. Shazam didn't even use Henry Cavill in the "cameo".

Snyder's vision wasn't connecting with fans

Ah, and here is where this vehement reaction of yours stems from. Let me make a correction for you: It wasn't connecting with you. It's why you think I'm attacking WB's "new direction", which is not the case. No, I'm pointing out that there is no direction.

What do you mean by consistency in their shared universe?

I could sit here and waste 10 minutes typing up an "answer" to this, but I'm not sure what about my previous post has you so confused as to not see my point that the WB DCEU is a mess right now. There's nothing more that needs to be said that wasn't already captured in my previous post. It's just become clear that some DCEU films are distancing themselves from each other, yet WB still wants to tote a "shared universe" of some kind even though it's being largely ignored in their latest lineup, ultimately confusing the moviegoers who aren't paying attention to any of the nonsense behind the scenes (A.K.A. the average moviegoer).

[Vathlonian]

Let me tell you facts


No one who isn’t already an A-lister is going to benefit from not having a DC cinematic universe


The cancellation of new gods proves my point, they would have been pushing ahead with it come hell or high water if it was a Batman property.

But they didn’t


Guardians of the galaxy and black panther would never have been greenlit by disney if the MCU was the mess that the DCEU is now


Want to know how I know this?


Look at the awful DCAMU


Nothing but endless Batman movies with one Wonder Woman movie and 2 Superman movies that was an adaptation of one of the most overrated storylines of all time


None of the lesser known characters got movies outside of the big three with Batman getting a disproportionate amount of movies to the point of nausea

And the exact same thing is going to happen and had already happened to live action DC if They don’t hard reboot and center on one universe like marvel


Black Adam is only happening because of Dwayne Johnson

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

They released Snyder's cut of the movie. How would the general audience that's not aware of the shenanigans behind the scenes know any difference?

Yeah, especially when we literally hear about all the stuff that was happening between Joss Whedon and the cast and how it's even now opened up a dialogue about Joss's past behavior with the cast of the Buffyverse.

Kick-Ass made references to DC, too. Doesn't make it a connected universe. Shazam didn't even use Henry Cavill in the "cameo".

Eh, here I'm gonna disagree with you. I think it's pretty clear that Shazam is in the DCEU. They not only reference Batman and Superman but use the same DCEU-specific iconography when doing so. It's not just a Batarang that Freddy shows Billy, but a Batarang that looks just like DCEU Batman's Batarangs.

Also, the post-credits scene in Shazam makes a specific reference to the climax of Aquaman.

Ah, and here is where this vehement reaction of yours stems from. Let me make a correction for you: It wasn't connecting with you. It's why you think I'm attacking WB's "new direction", which is not the case. No, I'm pointing out that there is no direction.

Especially when, as we saw, what was released theatrically wasn't even Snyder's actual end product. They literally released a completely different film that was marketed as "here's what Snyder wanted to do" which actually did resonate with fans and literally drove new HBO Max subscriptions in such a number that it surpassed Disney+ the same week the latter was dropping the first episode of Falcon and the Winter Soldier.

But, that won't stop a very vocal minority from claiming that nobody liked it...

I could sit here and waste 10 minutes typing up an "answer" to this, but I'm not sure what about my previous post has you so confused as to not see my point that the WB DCEU is a mess right now. There's nothing more that needs to be said that wasn't already captured in my previous post. It's just become clear that some DCEU films are distancing themselves from the previous plan, but WB still wants to tote a "shared universe" of some kind, all the while making counterproductive decisions to this end, confusing the moviegoers who aren't paying attention to any of the nonsense behind the scenes (A.K.A. the average moviegoer).

Kind of, yeah. I mean, I can absolutely see the potential of the "Elseworlds" approach, exploring alternate timelines and such, and I really really love Joker as a film. I like the fact that DC and WB can produce a diversity of tones in their films, from the standard superhero fare to "Oscar" films like Joker, which went on to earn 11 Academy Award nominations and won Best Actor.

However, the advantage of an "Elseworlds" approach only works if you label one as the "prime" or "main" universe, and establish everything else as branching off of that. In other words, there has to be a clear message from WB that's communicated in the advertising: "One of these universes is our MAIN universe. The other ones are not."

Also, for those who don't see how a multiverse might actually backfire and lead to less diversity in terms of the characters that get focus, just ask yourself: what characters have been announced for those films? Joker. Batman. Superman.

The whole point of a shared universe is that it allows them to move past characters at a certain point and bring in new ones. A multiverse, on the other hand, might provide too easy an excuse to simply do alternate versions of Batman and Superman until the end of time.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Let me tell you facts


No one who isn’t already an A-lister is going to benefit from not having a DC cinematic universe


The cancellation of new gods proves my point, they would have been pushing ahead with it come hell or high water if it was a Batman property.

But they didn’t


Guardians of the galaxy and black panther would never have been greenlit by disney if the MCU was the mess that the DCEU is now


Want to know how I know this?


Look at the awful DCAMU


Nothing but endless Batman movies with one Wonder Woman movie and 2 Superman movies that was an adaptation of one of the most overrated storylines of all time


None of the lesser known characters got movies outside of the big three with Batman getting a disproportionate amount of movies to the point of nausea

And the exact same thing is going to happen and had already happened to live action DC if They don’t hard reboot and center on one universe like marvel


Black Adam is only happening because of Dwayne Johnson

I understand where you're coming from, but I don't think the DCEU should be hard rebooted. They just need to continue on with it as is. We're already at the point where we're getting B- and C- listers shining within it. They just need to build it out further.

[Agent Z]

Let me tell you facts


No one who isn’t already an A-lister is going to benefit from not having a DC cinematic universe


The cancellation of new gods proves my point, they would have been pushing ahead with it come hell or high water if it was a Batman property.

But they didn’t


Guardians of the galaxy and black panther would never have been greenlit by disney if the MCU was the mess that the DCEU is now


Want to know how I know this?


Look at the awful DCAMU


Nothing but endless Batman movies with one Wonder Woman movie and 2 Superman movies that was an adaptation of one of the most overrated storylines of all time


None of the lesser known characters got movies outside of the big three with Batman getting a disproportionate amount of movies to the point of nausea

And the exact same thing is going to happen and had already happened to live action DC if They don’t hard reboot and center on one universe like marvel


Black Adam is only happening because of Dwayne Johnson

You're ignoring the shows that don't star Batman or have anything to do with him.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

This is pretty much where I'm at. The DCEU has a lot of good stuff in it despite a rocky start and I think a full blown reboot wouldn't be worth getting rid of what works for and instead would cause more confusing issues that wouldn't help the brand. Unfortunately IMO, the characters they fucked up with big time are four key players (Superman, Batman, Lex and the Joker) that are kind of hard to ignore. They may all be overplayed (especially Batman and the Joker) but a shared DCEU wouldn't work without them. Superman might be the easiest to salvage since he's alive again and they could have just quietly ignored the horrible plans Snyder had for him, but they are clearly done with Cavill and don't want to try.

This is why I think they should just say that the Snyder Cut is the canon Justice League movie now. Not only is it just a better film, but Superman, Batman, and Joker all come across better and even Lex is more interesting in the post-credits scene.

So, yeah...just make the Snyder Cut DCEU canon and forget Josstice League.

As for Cavill, I mean, they can always recast. There are very few actors who would turn down the chance to play Superman.

[SiegePerilous02]

This is why I think they should just say that the Snyder Cut is the canon Justice League movie now. Not only is it just a better film, but Superman, Batman, and Joker all come across better and even Lex is more interesting in the post-credits scene.

So, yeah...just make the Snyder Cut DCEU canon and forget Josstice League.

As for Cavill, I mean, they can always recast. There are very few actors who would turn down the chance to play Superman.

I kind of don't see the difference in which of the JL cuts is canon, because they both end more or less on the same broad note. I'd say make Snyder's canon because it IS the better cut and it's tonally consistent with what came before, and it's mostly a simple and satisfying action movie with six heroes joining forces against a common threat. But the Knightmare stuff it was still setting up was still absolutely horrendous, so I'm all in favor of passing on all that ****. It'd be the only reason I'd even consider keeping the Whedon cut canon even though it's otherwise way worse.

But Superman is back. Just avoid Snyder's plans for him and branch him out into a different direction that is more true to the character. Cavill or no, a soft reboot that just puts Superman in a new adventure against Brainiac or guest starring the Legion could work. Dick Grayson not being confirmed on screen as being the dead Robin gives them an out to make it Jason, which would allow both Nightwing and Red Hood to be used instead of needlessly cutting the legs out from the most marketable extended family DC has and also allows for a DCEU Titans to be set up. Wonder Woman can reunite with the Amazons, introduce Donna and other supporting characters other than Steve, introduce Circe and give Cheetah a new direction, etc.

Disagree on the Joker being in any way better in the Snyder cut lol. Lex was a little better, but I would still like a recasting on both.

[Vakanai]

They released Snyder's cut of the movie. How would the general audience that's not aware of the shenanigans behind the scenes know any difference?

Except you are aware of the difference, you know "they" aka the people behind all the other DC and DCEU movies didn't release it, so it's damn unfair of you to call them out on it. It was outside their power that their parent corporation who usually doesn't bother much with these things decided to overrule them because they wanted new content to up subscriber numbers.

Kick-Ass made references to DC, too. Doesn't make it a connected universe. Shazam didn't even use Henry Cavill in the "cameo".

Except Kick-Ass made references to them as fictional works that doesn't take place in their world. Shazam legit acknowledges that the DCEU events are real because it's set in the same world. And they wanted to use Cavill but couldn't get him so had to make do. In what way is it not part of the connected universe? Like, outside another DCEU actor from another film showing their face on-screen in a movie that isn't theirs, what more do you need to make it a shared universe movie? And if that's the only bar or metric that makes a movie part of a shared universe, someone else's face from a previous movie showing up in a crossover, what does that say? Every new superhero to enter the DCEU needs some other hero to show up to legitimize them?

Ah, and here is where this vehement reaction of yours stems from.

Before we go any further, I'm going to have to ask you to please chill - I realize text doesn't convey tone, but trust me my reaction wasn't vehement. That it came off as vehement to you is kind of surprising to be frank. People can disagree without being heated. I have been heated and even vehement elsewhere here at other times, but this isn't one of those times.

Let me make a correction for you: It wasn't connecting with you. It's why you think I'm attacking WB's "new direction", which is not the case. No, I'm pointing out that there is no direction.

It wasn't connecting with a lot of people. As the divisiveness over MoS, the critical reaction to BvS, the abject failure of the first JL, and the lukewarm and mixed response of the Cut proves.
Also, I know you were pointing out that you think WB has no direction, that's why I called you out - because I disagree. They very clearly do have a direction and plan, it's just one you dislike. Their plan and direction is very clearly to continue building up the DCEU, slowly strengthening the connective tissue between the films as they win back an audience after the Snyder-disaster by largely releasing good movies this go around while simultaneously setting up a multiverse so they can separately reboot the lucrative superhero franchises they screwed the pooch on aka just Batman and Superman. You don't like the facts that they lessened the connective tissue after JL bombed nor that they're doing Batman and Superman out of the DCEU, but that doesn't mean that WB doesn't have a direction. They very clearly do, and it's a direction that makes sense. After JL failed so hard and BvS and SS were so panned it made sense to focus less on shared universe connections in the following movies for a few years just to win back an audience and prove they can make good movies again - considering the mostly positive reception for Aquaman, Shazam, BoP, and TSS this has clearly been a good and needed move with only WW84 being considered a misstep. Now that they've done so they can start focusing more on having these films tie together with The Flash and Black Adam having the shared aspects somewhat front and center again from all reports. And because Batman and Superman are too valuable to sit on but are largely considered unsalvagable in the DCEU (or at least an uphill battle and not worth the effort to fix) they're introducing the multiverse to do their movies separately.

So when you lay it out, keeping in mind their reasons why, there is clearly a direction and a sensible one to boot. You are just not a fan because it moves away from what Snyder laid down, involved minimizing crossovers for several years to build back good will, and involves a multiverse to do Batman and Superman outside their flawed DCEU takes.

I could sit here and waste 10 minutes typing up an "answer" to this, but I'm not sure what about my previous post has you so confused as to not see my point that the WB DCEU is a mess right now. There's nothing more that needs to be said that wasn't already captured in my previous post. It's just become clear that some DCEU films are distancing themselves from each other, yet WB still wants to tote a "shared universe" of some kind even though it's being largely ignored in their latest lineup, ultimately confusing the moviegoers who aren't paying attention to any of the nonsense behind the scenes (A.K.A. the average moviegoer).

I had a feeling that's what you meant, and I was right - I couldn't disagree more strongly. Distancing the shared universe aspects of their films while still keeping the shared universe isn't, in fact, inconsistent. You might not like it, you may want every movie to involve some minor superhero crossover ala the MCU, but not being what you wish for isn't the same as being inconsistent. The JL failure shook them up, badly. They needed to move on, not focus on the shared universe aspect so much again just to ward off another flop, yet keep the shared universe intact for the time when they were strong enough a brand to try and bring it more into the foreground again - and they've largely managed to succeed at this difficult task. But cheer up - by all indications with The Flash and Black Adam they seem to be confident in moving once more into the crossover direction you want them to be in. So going forward the only factors you'll disagree with is that they're still keeping away from Snyder and his style, tone, and plans, and keeping Superman and Batman quarantined off in their own universes as the DCEU versions of them have been deemed lost causes.