Xmen Monday 122

[maxhilary]

Iceman meanwhile had two solo series in a row, both which failed to sell well or gain good critical reception, which essentialy marks him as failure on a solo level for the time being.

This is untrue. The entire reason he got the miniseries right after the solo book is because the solo book sold well in trades. This was mentioned by Jordan White himself on twitter. In fact, the writer still gets residual cheques for the book because it continues to sell in trades even now. And critically speaking, the first arc in particular is very well regarded and online reviews on Amazon and Goodreads back that up.

As for Iceman being gay because of a Family Guy joke. Sigh. There had long been speculation about Iceman being gay since the 90s, maybe even the 80s. In fact, multiple writers have mentioned that they wrote him as closeted, because Marvel used to get letters from people speculating about him. Lobdell and Liu have both mentioned that, the former being responsible for the bulk of Bobby's characterization in the 90s. There is no issue with his prior continuity from when he was written as straight, because not only do a lot of his prior themes work so well as a queer narrative, it also mirrors what many gay people experience IRL. Namely, expressing attraction to the opposite sex, both in words and in your own thoughts, because that's how denial works. It was like that for me too. So this notion that his older writing contradicts anything is irrelevant. There are people who don't come out until much later in life, some literally have grandchildren.

[jmc247]

Also the whole House of M dynasty type concept would be epic & sell well their's nothing anyone can say to convince me otherwise if I recall was the House of M comic not the highest selling story from the Battleworld days?

It sold upwards of 70K for the first issue and stayed above 30K for the rest of the mini. ​

Its a winning concept yes and they have started using the term House of M for the Magnus family in the 616.

The big difference between a House and a family is a House has a dynastic feel and some larger thing they represent they don't deserve the title of House of anything.

[Wiccan]

It sold upwards of 70K for the first issue and stayed above 30K for the rest of the mini. ​

Its a winning concept yes and they have started using the term House of M for the Magnus family in the 616.

The big difference between a House and a family is a House has a dynastic feel and some larger thing they represent they don't deserve the title of House of anything.

Magneto> Wanda > Billy is how the dynasty goes, the baddest in red.

[Mercury]

Did they really pull it off, though? For me, Iceman's history as an LGBT+ character will forever be tainted by the piss-poor handling of his coming out story. Seriously, any time I see that "you're gay" panel of Jean I'm just filled with gay fury.

And then there is the whole issue of the continuity in which he was clearly written as straight, thoughts and narrative included. For anyone who bothers about these aspect (i'm pretty sure what ever LGBT+ or straight there are many readers who still care about continuity and consistency of characters) this too harms the reveal.

Especialy since it perpetuates the joke that Jean Grey didn't "out" him against his will, which is allready awkward in itself , but actualy tinkered with his mind to "turn" him.

Speaking as a gay man who came out only after both my best friend and mother informed me that they already knew I was gay (the former simply said, "It's obvious!", while the latter read a letter I had written to said best friend), I relate to the scene between Bobby and Jean deeply. I am more annoyed by the fact that some people have chosen to take this moment out of context and use it as a joke and, worse yet, to imply that she "turned him gay." Frankly, I find such humor somewhat homophobic.

While I am not justifying Jean's behavior, nor the behavior of my best friend or mother, I can understand where they were coming from. In my case, I don't regret the tender moments I shared with both, which led me to finally feeling as if a burden had been lifted off of me. In Bobby's case, the writers seem to have written his experience in nearly the same way.

Of course, these pivotal moments always get left out of the joke, which I find disgusting.



Later, before the time-displaced teenagers go back...

[Grunty]

This is untrue. The entire reason he got the miniseries right after the solo book is because the solo book sold well in trades. This was mentioned by Jordan White himself on twitter. In fact, the writer still gets residual cheques for the book because it continues to sell in trades even now. And critically speaking, the first arc in particular is very well regarded and online reviews on Amazon and Goodreads back that up.

The informations i recalled, pointed towards the first Iceman series selling "good enough" in trades that they tried another series afterwards, which then sold far worse both in individual issue sales and in trades. With an overall sharp decrease in further sales for both since.

Which fits similar previous solo attempts with Iceman not selling well enough to warrant another one until a decade later each time (just like how most solo attempts for X-men characters who aren't Wolverine and to a lesser degree Cable and Gambit tend to do). Hence giving me the impression that Iceman's two recent solos were an experiment that didn't pay off enough that Marvel would try to give him another anytime soon.

Though in the absence of hard data to sustain my claim, your informations have to remain as valid counter then.

As for Iceman being gay because of a Family Guy joke. Sigh. There had long been speculation about Iceman being gay since the 90s, maybe even the 80s. In fact, multiple writers have mentioned that they wrote him as closeted, because Marvel used to get letters from people speculating about him. Lobdell and Liu have both mentioned that, the former being responsible for the bulk of Bobby's characterization in the 90s. (...)

I have to admit, that i did not know these writers have admittedly written him with that in mind, because of such fan reactions. Similar when looking up his history as character in the mid 00's, the informations i got did not contain such speculations.

As far as i was aware, the whole subject of Iceman being potential homosexual only started to be more widespread in comic fan communities, mostly as a re-occuring joke or ridicule towards the character, starting with the early 2010's, which to me was seemingly spurred by the joke in Family Guy.
I was not under the impression that it was the reason for him being revealed as such. Merely that i can't recall seeing serious discussions on the topic before the reveal, which gave me the impression that Bendis had essentialy unintentionaly validated what i had until then only noticed as joke towards Iceman, not an actual serious speculation or headcanon.

So chalk that up as me being unaware and/or ignorant on the whole subject.

Anyway i will refrain from expressing such claims from now on.

Speaking as a gay man who came out only after both my best friend and mother informed me that they already knew I was gay (the former simply said, "It's obvious!", while the latter read a letter I had written to said best friend), I relate to the scene between Bobby and Jean deeply. I am more annoyed by the fact that some people have chosen to take this moment out of context and use it as a joke and, worse yet, to imply that she "turned him gay." Frankly, I find such humor somewhat homophobic.

While I am not justifying Jean's behavior, nor the behavior of my best friend or mother, I can understand where they were coming from. In my case, I don't regret the tender moments I shared with both, which led me to finally feeling as if a burden had been lifted off of me. In Bobby's case, the writers seem to have written his experience in nearly the same way.

Fair point. I still think it was very crudely done and offered to much potential for such bad jokes. But that's my opinion.

[Nyssane]

Speaking as a gay man who came out only after both my best friend and mother informed me that they already knew I was gay (the former simply said, "It's obvious!", while the latter read a letter I had written to said best friend), I relate to the scene between Bobby and Jean deeply. I am more annoyed by the fact that some people have chosen to take this moment out of context and use it as a joke and, worse yet, to imply that she "turned him gay." Frankly, I find such humor somewhat homophobic.

I appreciate what you're saying, but the way Jean was flippantly motioning with her hands and flat out telling Bobby he's gay instead of letting him come out on his own terms, as a gay man, was really insulting and offensive.

From what you've said, your mother and best friend didn't out you to yourself - you were able to realize that within yourself first and was only later told that it was obvious? That's quite a bit different from what happened with Jean and Bobby.

[Mercury]

Fair point. I still think it was very crudely done and offered to much potential for such bad jokes. But that's my opinion.

Yours is a fair point, too. However, the creators or promulgators of "such bad jokes" have only themselves to blame for such crude, immature, insensitive, and again, dare I say, homophobic humor.

I appreciate what you're saying, but the way Jean was flippantly motioning with her hands and flat out telling Bobby he's gay instead of letting him come out on his own terms, as a gay man, was really insulting and offensive.

Thank you for being receptive to my thoughts and opinion. I, too, appreciate what you are saying and can understand where you are coming from.

From what you've said, your mother and best friend didn't out you to yourself - you were able to realize that within yourself first and was only later told that it was obvious? That's quite a bit different from what happened with Jean and Bobby.

This is the thing, though: Bobby did "realize it within [himself]." In the page I posted above, after he stops denying that he's gay, he admits to Jean, "I thought - I really thought I was crazy," to which Jean responds, "I know." This is one of the moments that cinched this scene as sensitive and important to me. The writers imply that Jean was only so assertive, maybe even forceful, in telling Bobby that she knew he was gay because she also knew that he was deeply conflicted, i.e., he felt "crazy," about the fact that he was. Again, it doesn't absolve her from crossing personal boundaries, but at least we know why she did. It's also important to note that, in this scene, both Bobby and Jean are young teenagers barely out of prepubescence, so neither's maturity level is necessarily high.

The second moment comes right after, on the same page, when Bobby tells Jean, "I don't know what I want to do with all of this yet," and Jean assures him, "It's no one's business until you say it is." Of course, she's being somewhat hypocritical here, and Bobby notes this by making a joke about it, but her support of him keeping his sexuality to himself until he is ready underscores that she wasn't trying to out him as much as let him know that he was not crazy and there was nothing wrong with him.

The second page I posted, from many issues later, highlights just how pivotal Bobby's moment with Jean was to him and his adult self. (This scene made me very emotional when I first read it.) Teenage Bobby says to his adult self, "I'm not sure I can go back to...before...I'm not the same person. I don't want to go back to pretending I'm something I'm not. I..." At this point, adult Bobby interjects with some of my favorite swathes of dialogue by him or anyone ever:

"Look...if you hadn't come here and been able to embrace who you really are...then I'd still be living a lie too. So, no matter what happens when you go back...you finally let me be honest with myself. And no one can take that from us."

[JB]

As for Iceman being gay because of a Family Guy joke. Sigh. There had long been speculation about Iceman being gay since the 90s, maybe even the 80s. In fact, multiple writers have mentioned that they wrote him as closeted, because Marvel used to get letters from people speculating about him. Lobdell and Liu have both mentioned that, the former being responsible for the bulk of Bobby's characterization in the 90s. There is no issue with his prior continuity from when he was written as straight, because not only do a lot of his prior themes work so well as a queer narrative, it also mirrors what many gay people experience IRL. Namely, expressing attraction to the opposite sex, both in words and in your own thoughts, because that's how denial works. It was like that for me too. So this notion that his older writing contradicts anything is irrelevant. There are people who don't come out until much later in life, some literally have grandchildren.

Well said. As a youngster reading this I didn't pick up exactly what was going on but now it's quite obvious.

[Mercury]

As a youngster reading this I didn't pick up exactly what was going on but now it's quite obvious.

Wow. Like you, I've read this issue a few times and never caught what is so obvious to me now. <3

[JB]

Wow. Like you, I've read this issue a few times and never caught what is so obvious to me now. <3

It's touching, right?

I love quiet moments like this, generally speaking.

[Mercury]

It's touching, right?

I love quiet moments like this, generally speaking.

It was already touching to me, but you pointing out this scene from 25+ years ago just... It truly blew my mind. It added layers to something I already loved. Wow. Thank you so much for posting it. My heart is so warmed.

I tweeted about it.

https://twitter.com/Jean_RED_Grey/st...59193855823872

Also...

[JB]

It was already touching to me, but you pointing out this scene from 25+ years ago just... It truly blew my mind. Wow. I tweeted about it.

https://twitter.com/Jean_RED_Grey/st...59193855823872

Also...

"What a 20+ year old arc." LOL so true!

[Mercury]

"What a 20+ year old arc." LOL so true!

Yes! 😂

Seriously, thank you so much for bringing up this scene. I've read it a few times and, though the thought crossed my mind that he might be referring to his sexuality, oddly enough, I never connected it to what happened later. Now it makes total sense. I mean, I am still somewhat in shock. Too touching for words. ❤️

[Jackraow21]

Well said. As a youngster reading this I didn't pick up exactly what was going on but now it's quite obvious.

Holy cow. Neither did I. Mind blown.

[blinkingblah]

I want him to write Young X-Men, that House of M book that he basically pitched, and I need him to SNATCH Iceman from Duggan.

Out of the X-Men options he offered up a picked:
BRUISER: Thumbelina
ENERGY: Iceman
TELEPATH: Karma
CROWD CONTROL: Tempo
FIGHTER: Shatterstar
TELEPORTATION: Lila Cheney

You got all my picks except I would like Amelia over Lila Cheney.