What is the most Important and Impactful Marvel Female Story Arc

[Username taken]

None at Marvel.

Back then, a lot of these stories were crafted by men and ultimately did nothing for female superheroes at Marvel. Were some successful, sure? But to what end? House of M and Dark Phoenix ultimately had their female characters go crazy (get possessed or whatever), do horrible things and die and/or disappear. They reinforced the “hysterical women trope” and demonized mental illness (later retconned to be possession or whatever…I say whatever because of the retcon upon retcon layered upon these stories).

Some aspects of those stories have no aged well at all and ultimately did zero for female representation at Marvel.

Seriously, it was stunning how long it took for Marvel to commit to having female superhero solo titles.

[Username taken]

Kamala Khan's entire original run by G. Willow Wilson.




I'd say having your own solo run or movie beats one event which was about a female character going out of control and dying.

Dark Phoenix was a landmark moment for the X-Men but for women superheroes as a whole? Highly questionable.

Exactly this.

These stories were huge (particularly Dark Phoenix) but they really didn’t do much for female superheroes.

At all.

[CosmiComic]

None at Marvel.

Back then, a lot of these stories were crafted by men and ultimately did nothing for female superheroes at Marvel. Were some successful, sure? But to what end? House of M and Dark Phoenix ultimately had their female characters go crazy (get possessed or whatever), do horrible things and die and/or disappear. They reinforced the “hysterical women trope” and demonized mental illness (later retconned to be possession or whatever…I say whatever because of the retcon upon retcon layered upon these stories).

Some aspects of those stories have no aged well at all and ultimately did zero for female representation at Marvel.

Seriously, it was stunning how long it took for Marvel to commit to having female superhero solo titles.

Good point. A lot of those old stories either made the women boring wives/girlfriends or crazy hysterical superbeings

[Username taken]

Good point. A lot of those old stories either made the women boring wives/girlfriends or crazy hysterical superbeings

Yeah.

Reading some of those old FF issues make me cringe. The way Reed talks and treats Sue is….something. That’s not to attack or demonize the creators, just that it was a different time but even for its time, some of it was flat out bullcrap.

The truth is when it comes to female superheroes there’s still work to be done but it’s a lot more positive these days with women actually writing these characters.

[Zero Hunter]

Not really one story but and overarcing subplot. When Heather Hudson watched her husband Guardian blow up before her eyes leaving nothing but ashes. Her then dealing with the trauma to eventually don the battle suit her self as the Vindicator.

[PlanetaryDevastation]

None at Marvel.

Back then, a lot of these stories were crafted by men and ultimately did nothing for female superheroes at Marvel. Were some successful, sure? But to what end? House of M and Dark Phoenix ultimately had their female characters go crazy (get possessed or whatever), do horrible things and die and/or disappear. They reinforced the “hysterical women trope” and demonized mental illness (later retconned to be possession or whatever…I say whatever because of the retcon upon retcon layered upon these stories).

Some aspects of those stories have no aged well at all and ultimately did zero for female representation at Marvel.

Seriously, it was stunning how long it took for Marvel to commit to having female superhero solo titles.

This. The closest would be the Dark Phoenix Saga but that inspired a bunch of sexist follow ups and has some bad messages that did not age well. But HOM was not Wanda centric. Both the writers of WandaVision and many other writers have pointed out that Wanda is a plot device who does nothing but be crazy and want babies while the men do everything. That was not a good story to focus on women unless you really have a low opinion on women.

The Death of Gwen Stacy does not focus on Gwen. Neither does Rogue assault on Ms Marvel. The honest answers and not the most famous answers are either Storm leadership of the X-men under Claremont or Wasp leadership of the Avengers under Stern. Marvel doesn't have any big women stories because of their history.

Good point. A lot of those old stories either made the women boring wives/girlfriends or crazy hysterical superbeings

Marvel is like a lot of manga and anime, in that they believed that they are centered around male readers so they ignore the female demo. And so that led to a lot of bad readings for female characters. It also doesn't help that at times, they seem to actively go out their way to sabotage their female characters to make them crazy or useless. Just look at what happened to Tigra. That's messed up.

Lee was bad at this for example. Lee's women were less than impressive while Kirby was much more active. But Marvel is bad on their female front because of this behavior. They once published a supervillainess team called the Hysterias in a storyline that they had to be aware was...not good. At least they seem to be aware of their behavior even if they have no intention of really avoiding it.

[Castle]

The death of Gwen Stacy had impact because she was never revived and the love she and Peter shared lingered and in many ways was still a thing that sometimes could overshadow the Peter and Mary Jane relationship. Also it never helped that Stan Lee was a very vocal fan of Gwen and Peter as a couple.

Speaking of house of m, everyone got their deepest desires. Peter is married to Gwen not Mary Jane. So this will always be a big issue who Peter has loved more. While I personally feel, he has loved Mary Jane more. Gwen is not just some Bella Donna to Gambit in Peter's life.

Bella Donna was Gambit first love but Gambit fell irrecoverably in love with Rogue and for a fact has never loved Bella Donna the way has loved Rogue. The Gwen and Peter love story is way above and beyond a first love thing. He deeply loved and never got over her death. that is why that story has so much impact.


As for Rogue and Carol, Revolutionary Jack. I never saw this as a footnote. it is easily a top 5 most popular marvel comic story about superhero females and overall comic book battles, even before the Captain Marvel movie and the build up to that movie, any discussion about Carol in the media was highlighted the fact that Rogue steals her powers in the end.

As for Dark Phoenix, Marvel publishers have so much respect of and for this story. Marvel has kept traces of the Phoenix saga in the comics for almost 40 years now, which is not to my best taste. However I would say Phoenix Endsong released during the Joss Whedon Astonishing X-MEN era in 2004/2005 was amazing. Very well written, very complex and very well drawn.

Another Honourable mention of maybe more in recent times and by comic standard of our own present time of 20 years. Would be The Messiah Complex and Second Coming story about Hope Summers. Although Cable is really the real main character of the story.

[CosmiComic]

Yeah.

Reading some of those old FF issues make me cringe. The way Reed talks and treats Sue is….something. That’s not to attack or demonize the creators, just that it was a different time but even for its time, some of it was flat out bullcrap.

The truth is when it comes to female superheroes there’s still work to be done but it’s a lot more positive these days with women actually writing these characters.

Yeah, that's why I've never liked those 2. They're the best example of the problems with the whole "nuclear family dynamic". And it's not demonizing to call out even creators we like for their outdated behavior. The past should be criticized if we're going to actually get anywhere

I'd say generally modern superhero comics are doing women better, but even then, some major female heroes still haven't been given good storylines and characterization, if any at all

This. The closest would be the Dark Phoenix Saga but that inspired a bunch of sexist follow ups and has some bad messages that did not age well. But HOM was not Wanda centric. Both the writers of WandaVision and many other writers have pointed out that Wanda is a plot device who does nothing but be crazy and want babies while the men do everything. That was not a good story to focus on women unless you really have a low opinion on women.

The Death of Gwen Stacy does not focus on Gwen. Neither does Rogue assault on Ms Marvel. The honest answers and not the most famous answers are either Storm leadership of the X-men under Claremont or Wasp leadership of the Avengers under Stern. Marvel doesn't have any big women stories because of their history.

Those are 2 actually good examples. The famous ones never actually develop the female characters, but Wasp and Storm as leaders is actually worth something. Monica rambeau was also a leader IIRC. In that regard it seems the comics have regressed, because it went back to male heroes being the leaders.

Marvel is like a lot of manga and anime, in that they believed that they are centered around male readers so they ignore the female demo. And so that led to a lot of bad readings for female characters. It also doesn't help that at times, they seem to actively go out their way to sabotage their female characters to make them crazy or useless. Just look at what happened to Tigra. That's messed up.

Lee was bad at this for example. Lee's women were less than impressive while Kirby was much more active. But Marvel is bad on their female front because of this behavior. They once published a supervillainess team called the Hysterias in a storyline that they had to be aware was...not good. At least they seem to be aware of their behavior even if they have no intention of really avoiding it.

Well, Marvel should think about female readers next time it tries to pull something like HoM. And even some of us male readers hate seeing women drawn this way. That's why it's hard for me to read older comics sometimes.

[Castle]

Kamala Khan's entire original run by G. Willow Wilson.




I'd say having your own solo run or movie beats one event which was about a female character going out of control and dying.
.

Kind of Meh on Kamela Khan. I think Marvel was trying too hard to make her what Kitty Pryde and Jubilee was in the 80s and 90s but unlike those characters. Kamala Khan ethnic and religion got to overshadow everything else. At least with Jubilee while Asian American and Kitty Pryde Jewish, they were known as really good female characters that spoke to a young audience on their own terms because they played mostly POV characters in what we see now as many classic marvel stories or even TV Shows.

This was not only because of their ethnicity or religious beliefs, although those were good additions to their identity. But then again maybe I am judging too harshly because 80s and 90s marvel just has far better written interesting stories than the new millennium marvel comics.

[chicago_bastard]

Yeah.

Reading some of those old FF issues make me cringe. The way Reed talks and treats Sue is….something. That’s not to attack or demonize the creators, just that it was a different time but even for its time, some of it was flat out bullcrap.

The truth is when it comes to female superheroes there’s still work to be done but it’s a lot more positive these days with women actually writing these characters.

Sue had a very important role in the 60s:

f4.jpg

[CosmiComic]

Sue had a very important role in the 60s:

f4.jpg

The pain of reading this. Why does she go back to him?

[Username taken]

Sue had a very important role in the 60s:

f4.jpg

I actually laughed out loud at this.

It was sooooo sexist that it's funny.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I don't see how any retcon diminishes the impact of The Phoenix and the Dark Phoenix Saga. That feels like cutting off the nose to spite the face, in my opinion. Yes Marvel hasn't done well with female characters but to claim that there hasn't been major "Marvel Female Story Arc" or any such thing feels absurd.

I mean THE INFINITY GAUNTLET and its events have also been retconned or diminished. At the end of that story, Thanos attains a form of redemption and looks like he's retired from being all-purpose cosmic a--hole, but that part of the story has been walked away from and undone.

[Mike_Murdock]

I feel it is down to 3 stories.

The Dark Phoenix Saga

The Death of Gwen Stacy

Rogue Steals Mrs Marvel Powers



If other please list.

So I'd like to avoid stories where women are pawns or a victim, which eliminates both the death of Gwen Stacy and Rogue stealing Ms. Marvel's powers. I'd also like to avoid the "woman gets power and can't handle it, which would eliminate both Dark Phoenix and House of M. That being said, in terms of impact, Dark Phoenix would be the most likely choice.

Honestly, I'm tempted to say No Normal from Kamala Khan's Ms. Marvel run.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

So I'd like to avoid stories where women are pawns or a victim, which eliminates both the death of Gwen Stacy and Rogue stealing Ms. Marvel's powers. I'd also like to avoid the "woman gets power and can't handle it, which would eliminate both Dark Phoenix and House of M.

Again the OP was Quantitative and not Evaluative.

The fact is stories centered on women such as "The Phoenix and The Dark Phoenix Saga" (which is the full title of the OP) were huge impactful stories. The Phoenix Saga which started from Uncanny X-Men #100 all the way to UXM#138 was a run of stories running over four years which basically made X-Men the Marvel book and the superhero book. You can argue that The Phoenix Saga is up there with Most Important and Impactful Marvel Arc period.

Likewise I don't think that "The Dark Phoenix Saga" is remotely about 'woman gets power and can't handle it' since Jean was shown to handle it, she saved the Universe after all.

I'd add:
-- THE ELEKTRA SAGA which helped codify DAREDEVIL into an important Marvel title and provided a platform for Miller's influential career in the '80s, and introduce the '80s obsession with ninjas, clans, and noir that inspired a range of titles including Teenage Ninja Mutant Turtles.
-- THOR 2014 -- Jane Foster's Thor.
-- Captain Marvel 2012 by Kelly Sue DeConnick.