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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Thunders! View Post
    I don’t care about continuity but I do want all the mythology and options. Maybe they need to be like the Simpsons. Is Jor El still alive?
    I think that it actually would be interesting to see Jor-El pop up now and then in the Superman books. He could be the Kryptonian father for Clark and now and then they would have disagreements. Also I've never quite understand why Kal-El the son of a brilliant scientist isn't shown to be more intelligent than he is. By the way , bring back the secret identity. I miss that part.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheKryptonMan View Post
    I think that it actually would be interesting to see Jor-El pop up now and then in the Superman books. He could be the Kryptonian father for Clark and now and then they would have disagreements. Also I've never quite understand why Kal-El the son of a brilliant scientist isn't shown to be more intelligent than he is. By the way , bring back the secret identity. I miss that part.
    Intelligence isn't hereditary. While i agree I'd like to see Superman use his head more, he doesn't necessarily have the background he did in the Silver Age to be on Jor-El's level. Jon between the Legion and that space trip with Grampa Jor-El might be that scientifically advanced (but hasn't shown a glimmer of being smarter than his dad).

  3. #33
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Clark View Post
    Intelligence isn't hereditary. While i agree I'd like to see Superman use his head more, he doesn't necessarily have the background he did in the Silver Age to be on Jor-El's level. Jon between the Legion and that space trip with Grampa Jor-El might be that scientifically advanced (but hasn't shown a glimmer of being smarter than his dad).
    Goku uses his head more than superman.

    And batman stole killer croc's ideas..The genius of killer croc forever tainted by the wretched gliding rodent...smh!

    The nerve of the guy...He didn't even bother to execute the plan properly.You are not supposed to throw a green rock.You are supposed to throw a big one..

    Intelligence in comics is just hype
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 09-01-2021 at 03:47 AM.
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  4. #34
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    During Didio's reign as head of DC, the Superman books, moreso than any other franchise in the DCU, saw a seemingly endless series of reboots and continuity reshuffles and retro-boots, and revamps. This was meant to culminate in 5G, which would have seen Superman and company aged up, but the broad strokes of all his previous history made canon in an exhaustive year by year timeline that would have stretched from baby Kal-El's rocket landing on Earth in 1938 to the present day, which would have the 18 year old son of Kal-El take over as Superman.

    Then, Didio got fired and Marie Javins' was brought into replace him and try to course correct while still using as much of the material generated for 5G as possible.

    Understandably, the current Superman writers have been loath to dive back into Superman's origin again given how often its been redone or revised since Loeb tried to retro-boot the 1948 Krypton back into continuity in the early 2000s.

    However, we now have a situation wherein the specifics of Superman's history is more vague than some may like. The main points are all there, of course, but the exact details are hazy. Granted, that is generally the case with any long-running superhero continuity with a sliding timeline, but this does seem to be a sticking point for some fans.

    The question is, how much does this matter? Do we need a year by year recounting of exactly what Superman's history is now, and how it all fits together? Do we need to know what stories are canon and which aren't? Or should the Superman books simply focus on telling the best stories they can? Is the foundation laid out by Johns, Jurgens, Bendis, (along with the elements of Morrison's reboot that have stuck), enough to move forward?
    I like it if they fit but it in the end I don't really care if they don't... if we're talking about past chronology.

    The current and onward though, I want it to fit, because that's the one I will be reading instead of looking back at past trades like distant memory.

    Continuity from past to present matters more when accounting for character development, like would a character with this experience, this trauma, would do this instead of that?

  5. #35
    Extraordinary Member Doctor Know's Avatar
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    Continuity should matter, but WB/DC have been playing fast and loose with Supes and his line for years. Count the day one origins for Superman and then count how many of them got day twos.

    There are way too many day-one origin stories for Superman in recent memory.

    1. The Man of Steel by Byrne - 1986

    2. Superman for All Seasons by Loeb - 1998

    3. Birthright by Waid - 2003

    4. Secret Identity by Buisek - 2004

    5. Secret Origin by Johns - 2009

    6. Earth One by Straczynski - 2010

    7. New 52 by Morrison - 2011

    8. Man of Steel film - 2013

    9. American Alien by Landis - 2015

    10. Rebirth by Tomasi & Gleason - 2016

    11. Reborn by Tomasi & Gleason - 2017
    *Where they combined New 52 and Post-Infinite Crisis Supermen into one.

    12. Year One by Frank Miller - 2019

    13. Man of Tomorrow DTV film - 2020


    Like the other trend of Superman seemingly fighting Doomsday at least once every year now. The back to back and sometimes overlapping releases of origin stories for Superman is obnoxious.


    Then you have the retcons in the middle of a story that fail to pan out as planned. The road to nowhere storyline of Mr. Oz Jor-El. Geoff Johns plans for the original Legion with Rebirth. Only for him to do nothing with them during his much delayed, nothing-burger Doomsday Clock. At the conclusion of Doomsday Clock, Bendis' Legion supplanted the Rebirth/Pre-Flashpoint Legion of Johns. Bendis' Legion. Tick-Tac-Toe, Clark Kent is Superman was revealed to the world two times in a row. DCYou 'Truth" and during Bendis' run.


    I could go on. DC needs to get it's head on straight and pick a story and stick to one continuous story.

  6. #36
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Know View Post
    Continuity should matter, but WB/DC have been playing fast and loose with Supes and his line for years. Count the day one origins for Superman and then count how many of them got day twos.

    There are way too many day-one origin stories for Superman in recent memory.

    1. The Man of Steel by Byrne - 1986

    2. Superman for All Seasons by Loeb - 1998

    3. Birthright by Waid - 2003

    4. Secret Identity by Buisek - 2004

    5. Secret Origin by Johns - 2009

    6. Earth One by Straczynski - 2010

    7. New 52 by Morrison - 2011

    8. Man of Steel film - 2013

    9. American Alien by Landis - 2015

    10. Rebirth by Tomasi & Gleason - 2016

    11. Reborn by Tomasi & Gleason - 2017
    *Where they combined New 52 and Post-Infinite Crisis Supermen into one.

    12. Year One by Frank Miller - 2019

    13. Man of Tomorrow DTV film - 2020
    I agree with you that there have been a lot of Superman origins over the past few years, but most of those were never intended to be in continuity or were expansions upon previous continuity.

    Superman's origin has always been fertile ground for creators, so I don't begrudge DC letting people play with that period of the characters life, particularly since a lot of those creators approached their stories very differently. I mean, I wouldn't want DC telling Kurt Busiek that he couldn't write a wonderful story like Secret Identity because Mark Waid had just written Birthright the year before.

  7. #37
    Astonishing Member Johnny Thunders!'s Avatar
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    I take comfort in knowing one day I can walk in the shop grab a Superman issue and know it doesn’t matter what I missed. I think?

  8. #38
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Thunders! View Post
    I take comfort in knowing one day I can walk in the shop grab a Superman issue and know it doesn’t matter what I missed. I think?
    Superman hasn't had great episodic comics since with start,middle and end in a comic itself since silverage/bronzeage.There are exceptions with one offs here and there.i wouldn't consider it norm.They have continually focused on being serialised.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 09-01-2021 at 08:57 PM.
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  9. #39
    Extraordinary Member superduperman's Avatar
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    The way I see it, there are three types of continuity:

    1) What I call Archies continuity. There is a set status quo but nothing really changes. You have static characters and stories and no issue necessarily acknowledges the ones that came before them. Maybe a new character is added but other than that, nothing really changes. This is also largely the model for the pre-Crisis universe.

    2) The post-Crisis model. Which is very tight to the point where every second is accounted for and very little deviation. I see this as kind of a backlash to the instability of the pre-Crisis universe. I see this as the model until Return to Krypton which completely upended his origin.

    3) The Marvel model. Which is a stable continuity but nothing is necessarily carved in stone. They can retroactively go back and change things as necessary.

    The way I see it is that current DC is trying to be all of the above but being none.
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  10. #40
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Continuity is important, but I think sometimes we put far more emphasis on it than we should. Continuity is a narrative tool to enrich and enhance a story, but it's not the goal yknow?

    And with comics (and other serialized, long-running narratives) you end up with a inevitable conflict; the ongoing story is a sizable part of the appeal, but it also makes it harder for new readers to catch up. And the longer the story unfolds the greater the divide between new readers and old; the established fan wants to see the story continue and see where all the development and character work goes while the new reader wants something they can understand without spending hours and hours doing wiki research. It's a fine line for creators to walk. Like, just look at Zod; these days he's a political frenemy of Clark's with a family (and planet) of his own, but without understanding the years of rivalry between the Zod's and El's, a lot of subtext is lost and the current dynamic seems more bland.

    I've seen a few posters get hung up on whether Superman & the Authority is canon, and if it is, where it belongs on the timeline. And everyone reads for their own reasons but to me, that seems like it's missing the point. What truly matters is whether the book in your hands right now is engaging and entertaining, not whether it lines up with events in a fictional history. Obviously there's a "common sense" limit to that, nobody wants each new issue of a comic to completely start from scratch, but when we get hung up on the details of continuity and start worrying about that more than the quality of the tale being told then we've lost the forest for the trees, yknow?

    I think continuity should matter, it should be followed as closely and as often as reasonably possible, but it shouldn't get in the way of telling a good story either.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

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  11. #41
    Astonishing Member Yoda's Avatar
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    I generally agree with the points you made on continuity, but I think that this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I've seen a few posters get hung up on whether Superman & the Authority is canon, and if it is, where it belongs on the timeline. And everyone reads for their own reasons but to me, that seems like it's missing the point. What truly matters is whether the book in your hands right now is engaging and entertaining, not whether it lines up with events in a fictional history.
    is an example of what you said would be a problem. With month-to-month books not lining up correctly. The question about Superman & The Authority isn't whether it fits generally into the continuity of Superman's timeline, it's whether and how it fits into the present storyline it's part of. How it is all connected or not is part of the story. We've been vaguely told there is a connection, but not what or how. That's part of the story itself. Hypothesizing about that isn't hyper-fixating on continuity, it's questioning how the present story is being told and all fits together.

    At least to me, there's a pretty significant difference between that and continuity coping to rationalize all the appearances Batman or Superman makes month-to-month or whether or not some comic from 2006 fits into the Post-Reborn Superman context.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    Here's the broad strokes of what we know about Superman's history thus far.

    Krypton is an updated version of Johns merged Krypton that combines elements of the Pre-Crisis, Post-Crisis, and Donner versions, but now with some of Morrison's additions. Kara Zor-El's origin has been sorted out thanks to the influence of the CW show.

    Clark's rocket arrived on Earth and raised to believe in Truth & Justice in America's heartland by Ma & Pa Kent. He was best friends with Pete Ross and the girl next door, Lana Lang, who was also aware of his secret abilities. Young Lex Luthor once lived in Smallville for a time with his drunken father Lionel, but he eventually disappeared under mysterious circumstances.

    Clark moved to Metropolis and eventually joined the Daily Planet as a reporter, where he met Lois Lane, Jimmy Olsen & Perry White. He debuted as Superman, fell in love with Lois Lane, and became the arch-enemy of billionaire tycoon and inventor Lex Luthor. Superman met Batman & Robin, formed the Justice League and earned his reputation as the World's Greatest Hero. Over the next few years, Superman fought a variety of villains from Metallo to Parasite, Toyman, Prankster, Titano, various incarnations of the alien collector Brainiac, and Mongul. At some point, Morgan Edge bought the Daily Planet and enlisted Lois & Clark as TV news reporters on Galaxy Broadcast News. Following the Crisis, the Daily Planet was sold off again and they returned to print journalism.

    Lois & Clark's courtship culminated in him revealing his dual identity to her. However, soon after they got engaged, Superman was killed battling the Kryptonian monster Doomsday. In the aftermath, four different Supermen appeared to fill the void until the true Superman returned with his glorious 90s mullet. Lois & Clark were married, Superman Red/Blue happened, yada, yada, yada. Pretty much all the major events that took place over the last couple decades still took place in the broad strokes.

    The New 52 reboot is where it gets complicated, but I think it's best for them to be as straight-forward about it as possible. Just stick to what actually occurred. Time was altered by outside forces and everyone momentarily forgot a decade of their lives and relived key moments of their pasts, but in new and different ways. However, gradually this wore off and everyone's memories of their old lives returned when time was slowly reset during Rebirth, Superman Reborn, and Death Metal. During this tumultuous period, Lois & Clark had a son named Jonathan Samuel Kent, but time shenanigans led to him growing up much faster than normal, so he's now 18 years old.

    The key points for me are the following:

    When did Supergirl first appear? Before Crisis, in which she died and was later resurrected post-Crisis? Or are we still going to pretend she didn't exist until recently?

    When did Superman first fight Zod and the Phantom Zone criminals?

    If Clark was operating in secret as Superboy, was he in costume or not? Was he a member of the original LSH?

    Were young Clark and Lex ever friends?
    The new 52 only happened as costumes changes and few other cosmetic changes now. And the stories that era obviously happened differently with the recent reality changes.
    Last edited by D.Z; 09-02-2021 at 02:11 PM.

  13. #43
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by D.Z View Post
    The new 52 only happened as costumes changes and few other cosmetic changes now. And the stories that era obviously happened differently with the recent reality changes.
    You can certainly approach it that way, but I think it'd be more interesting to allow those stories to take place more or less how they did, but with the understanding that it was during a period in which time was broken. Trying to retrofit those stories to fit with the rest seems like a pointless exercise. Just let them be what they were.

    Granted, I seriously doubt anything from that era is going to get revisited again beyond a vague reference here or there, irregardless

  14. #44
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    You can retrofit it in your head, also writers can write both the flashbacks and/or revisting the past for stories about the new history. Everyone had to do the same for post crisis.
    Last edited by D.Z; 09-02-2021 at 03:43 PM.

  15. #45
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    I generally agree with the points you made on continuity, but I think that this:

    >>Superman & The Authority<<

    is an example of what you said would be a problem. With month-to-month books not lining up correctly.
    Yeah, S&tA might not have been the best example out there, but it's what came to mind first. Still, glad that you got the gist of what I was getting at.

    I do still think there's some folks taking that book the wrong way too. I've seen a few posters who seem more concerned with how it fits into the canon than with whether it's worth reading in the first place, and to me that just seems like the wrong way to look at it. We know that the book, if it's canon, is taking place in the near future. How it fits into the timeline is a question we won't be able to answer until we reach the point (roughly) where the story actually takes place. So until then, why are we worrying so much about the continuity and not just enjoying the ride?
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

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