DC's Martial Arts World appreciation thread 2022

[golgi]

Some more to consider ranking:

Talon
White Canary
Silver Monkey
Azrael (Lane/JPV)

[Marik Swift]

Haven't read any batbooks in a while, how good is Ra's these days?

[Captain Nostalgia]

OMG I forgot I-Ching

I'm trying not to rank enhanced dudes outside of like Deathstroke, Midnighter and Ozy level. It's just too hard to account for Wonder Woman and Superman level beings and seperate their skills from their stats.



You may have a point with Huntress. What has she been doing recently? It always gets tougher to rank characters for me when you get outside the top 5 or 10 fighters. I'm trying to take a character's entire history into account and lean a little heavier on their more recent histories (last 5 to 10 years). Typically I prefer to put fighters into tiers without ranking them. It saves me the headache, lol. But I always love discussing topics like these takes me back to the days when I use to frequent battle boards.

I use to have a good sense for the Batfamily, but they keep adding people. Duke, Luke Fox, Tim Fox, Harper Row, etc.

I liked your list. It's more in line with how I ranked characters in the early 2000s, but I'm trying to make an approximation for recent showings and where I think DC roughly pegs each fighter.

Thanks I liked your list as well. I agree it gets hard to rank people outside of the top 10.

Huntress hasn't done anything spectacular of late, she's currently in Detective Comics (I'm trying to recall if she saved Bruce from a virus that made him crazy or not) and before that she was in the Batgirl and the Birds of Prey run.

I was just thinking, I don't think Jason Todd was under the tutelage of Batman that long and he appears to be more trained in the arts of assassination than martial arts. (though he can hold his own)

Batman has partially mentored her but finds she's too wild & unpredictable. I recall her saving Batman once in the early 2000's and she's worked alongside Tim Drake, pretty sure she's probably friendly sparred with Nightwing during their romance.

I would just place her higher up, (To receive some training by the Richard the Dragon is significant) but then these things become totally subjective the further you get away from the top 10.

[marhawkman]

You may have a point with Huntress. What has she been doing recently? It always gets tougher to rank characters for me when you get outside the top 5 or 10 fighters.

The most interesting showing for Helena was "Birds of Prey (Volume 2) #6"... in which Sandra Wu-San decides to dub her "Iron Owl". Why? Because, while Helena didn't win vs her.... she managed to force a near stalemate. Yeah.. the "Iron" part is because Sandra found her defensive abilities to be impressive. Hmmm not sure how much that really says about Huntress though.

[golgi]

Does Earth 3 Huntress count? She did defeat a small army of Ultra-Humanite's meta army, which was pretty damn impressive.

What about Thomas Wayne? He single-handedly beat the Batfamily, which included Cassandra Cain.

[lemonpeace]

Does Earth 3 Huntress count? She did defeat a small army of Ultra-Humanite's meta army, which was pretty damn impressive.

What about Thomas Wayne? He single-handedly beat the Batfamily, which included Cassandra Cain.

for ranking i prefer if you stuck to Earth 0, no omniverse/multiverse and no future characters. I know people have broken the future part already but it's Karate Kid, he kinda HAS to be mentioned

[LifeIsILL]

Isn't there a comic where Karate Kid beat up his whole planet or something?

Maybe I'm remembering it wrong.....

[golgi]

Anyone want to rank Red X?

[Jabare]

Anyone want to rank Red X?

not me, not yet

Isn't there a comic where Karate Kid beat up his whole planet or something?

Maybe I'm remembering it wrong.....

I remember he destroyed a meteor with a kick. I think he also stopped a tidal wave. Karate Kid regularly performed superhuman feats that the comic just ascribed to his martial arts skills. So in my opinion you either have to accept his feats or disregard the character entirely from this ranking

Does Earth 3 Huntress count? She did defeat a small army of Ultra-Humanite's meta army, which was pretty damn impressive.

What about Thomas Wayne? He single-handedly beat the Batfamily, which included Cassandra Cain.

If we are bringing in characters from other earths and dimensions this is going to be a ginormous list. I'll have to reread thatThomas Wayne arc I don't remember it as well.

[Rac7d*]

Haven't read any batbooks in a while, how good is Ra's these days?

You dont get to win when your an antagonist but as man who has lived centuries he is a master

I wonder how this thread will change at the conclusion of ROBIN fight tournament arc.
Most of the competitors are Nightwing, villain assassins' he has defeated, anyone else who has been named a worth advsary is an original minus Connor

[golgi]

I don't think the Thomas Wayne I'm talking about is from Earth 3. Earth 3 Thomas Wayne got his strength from the same pill Hourman got his. The one is Tom Kings run is different.

[lemonpeace]

I decided to crib Jabare's tier ranking instead of a traditional list and i added my new tier framework (with an explanation for each tier) to the OP.

As stated above, all martial artists are appreciated here, pure fighters, weapons specialists, assassins, etc. we love all the violence. however, characters that have abilities that do not compliment or factor into their martial arts, or have powers that make their martial arts largely irrelevant, are not eligible for the tier rankings. For example, Midnighter, Deathstroke, and Duke Thomas all have superhuman enhancements that factor directly into their martial arts prowess; whereas characters like Black Lightning, and Wonder Woman have powers that, more or less, make their martial arts skill irrelevant most of the time.

with that being said, here's how I'm breaking down the tiers.

SS Tier (God Tier) "martial arts is my superpower." more than a legend, this tier is for fighters that effectively transcend traditional martial arts and have reached a point where their combat ability are effectively metahuman or mystical in status.


S Tier (Legendary Tier) this tier is for characters that have skills beyond reasonable human ability and can reliably tangle with certain metahumans. these fighters are the meta of the DC martial arts world, their skills are the stuff of legend and set the bar for martial arts in the DC universe.



A Tier (Master Tier) these individuals have a distinct fighting style and are athletes operating at the peak of human ability and/or have an ability that greatly enhances their fighting ability. These are masters of their respective martial arts disciplines and can typically produce capable fighters as pupils. from this tier onward guns become nearly irrelevant.


B Tier (Elite Tier) these are exceptional combatants that possess combat skills that are leagues ahead of the average fighter. those in this tier are typically near-peak level athletes, relative to an olympian.


C Tier (Very Good Tier) these are the above-average fighters. typically hardened from experience and can handle most henchmen and street-level threats with no problem. these characters possess above-average physicality and while guns pose a threat, they're not a significant threat.


D Tier (Decent Brawler Tier) these are typically self-taught or undisciplined fighters who still know how to handle themselves in a fight.

here are where i ranked various characters and i included some extra characters i wasn't sure about for people to help me place:

SS Tier (God Tier)

1. Karate Kid
-The best fighter in the History of the DC Universe. He has knowledge of every martial art to ever exist and would regularly perform straight-up superhuman feats by virtue of "martial arts". bro was broken.

2. i decided to lump all the esoteric sensei characters into one rank placement because i imagine they were comparable to each other in their primes.
2a. O-Sensei
-Teacher and master of the legendary trio
2b. I-Ching
-Teacher of Slade Wilson, Wonder Woman (apparently), and mentored Kenan Kong in the ways of manipulating Qi.
2c. Sensei
-one of the most knowledgeable martial arts masters in the world, father of The Demon, and former master of Bronze Tiger. I don't think he's aged as well as O-sensei or I-Ching, since he has not produced the same caliber of students (O-Sensei) or achieved the same level of metaphysical enlightenment (I-Ching).

S Tier (Legendary Tier)

unranked. Richard Dragon
-often called the best fighter in the DC Universe and I believe he had the feats to back it up, unfortunately Dragon has been dead since the New 52; leaving him unranked. With Death Metal and the potential for martial arts making a comeback at DC he may be retconned back into existence, but until then he remains unranked.

3. Lady Shiva
-the deadliest non-superpowered woman in the DC Universe

4. Bronze Tiger
-He's been taught by two of the greatest masters in the DC universe, he's soundly defeated Batman multiple times, gone toe to toe with Deathstroke, he's the rival of Lady Shiva and Richard Dragon, and his exploits in the League of Assassins and Task Force X are well noted. he doesn't get the love he deserves Benjamin Turner is an undeniably bad ************.

5. Batgirl (Cassandra Cain)
- It's been well over a decade since she's been "the top fighter" in the DC Universe. Given her encounters with Azrael, Shiva, and others, she's still super nice but she has not fully returned to the heights she once had. Despite that, she was competing for that top spot as the best martial artist and even as recently as Tynion's run on Detective Bruce recognizes that she is comfortably above him. plus she still can bulldoze armies of fighters and she still can go toe to toe with Shiva or just about anyone else.

6. Deathstroke
-despite jobbing, he's still the deadliest assassin in the DC Universe. DC stay tryna to play my boy by having Batman punk him from time to time but I still maintain that in pure hands Slade edges Bruce out more often than not.

A Tier (Master Tier)

7. Batman (Bruce Wayne)
-Frankly, It's Batman, nuff said. personally, I like to think of Bruce as the gatekeeper between the high-level fighters and the FIGHTER fighters. think about it this way, with the Batfamily he's spawned the most prolific school of crime fighters in the DC universe; he's the epitome of a Master.

8. Nightwing (Dick Grayson)
-Dick Grayson's rating fluctuates depending on where you put Bruce. He's sometimes above Batman, sometimes below, but he's consistently stayed ahead of the rest of the Batfamily for the most part. I believe around his time as Batman he was firmly above Bruce and one of the best on the planet but his place has apparently fallen since Flashpoint and due to an influx of other DC martial artists. His stock has kind of took a hit since the New 52, but he still consistently pulls off solid feats over the years, and with their histories restored I think rivaling Bruce is a solid position.

9. Black Canary (Dinah Lance)
-Black Canary is an incredible fighter, this is a known fact, but from what I can tell her stock has fallen a bit recently. Still generally agreed to be a top 10 fighter and I respect that.

10. Katana (Tatsu Yamashiro)
-underrated fighter. I believe it's safe to say Katana is probably the #1 swordsman in the DC universe. she's been on multiple teams and fought a variety of enemies over the years. she's also consistently put in the conversation with Lady Shiva in terms of women in combat, and I believe she's even gone head-up with Shiva a few times, which alone speaks to the level of skill she's on.

11. Ravager (Rose Wilson)
- trained by Slade, is a weapons master and inherited his mental abilities which include precognition.

unranked. Ghost-Maker

unranked. Azrael (JPV)

12. Connor Hawke
-I hear this is where he goes and I have no real objections so I'm gonna respect it.

13. Green Arrow (Oliver Queen)
-this feels appropriate. While I feel he's probably low to mid B tier in pure hand to hand, if we're just focusing on his proficiency with the bow and arrow, he's easily Master class and could more than likely snipe anyone below him, at peak performance.

14. Red Hood (Jason Todd)
-he could be higher or lower. I'm more familiar with his showing in the New 52 through Rebirth and based on those he's definitely a highly skilled fighter relative to Bruce and Dick, if not quite as good. I don't think he's gone toe to toe with anyone significant besides Ra's al Ghul recently and he did just take that parental asswhopping from Bruce when he saw him shoot the Penguin. I might move him higher still but I think this makes sense for now.

15. Ra's Al Ghul
- Ra's in context has to be ranked high, based on his character on paper, but there are a lot of people that have bested him over the years

16. Wildcat (Ted Grant)
-Ted Grant, definitely not as skilled as those above him (and arguably some of those below him) but Ted is still incredibly effective, widely respected, and his record speaks for itself. Also, he's the teacher of Black Canary and Batman, two undeniable heavyweights in DC's fighting world.

B Tier (Elite Tier)

17. Bane
- technically he could/should be higher considering he has dominated characters that rank higher but i think the average portrayal of Bane usually is about here; with him being super effective against Batman, similar to how Killmonger is particularly effective against Black Panther.

18. Batgirl/Oracle (Barbara Gordon)
-Barbara's always been a competent fighter, but I don't know of enough of her feats to justify putting her higher. she could move up.

19. Robin (Damian Wayne)

20. Emiko Queen

Renee Montoya

Batwoman

Huntress

Huntress

C Tier (Very Good Tier)

Catwoman
-i think based on portrayal Selina may actually be Elite, especially if we take into account some of her recent feats, but i'm not super familiar with her martial arts pedigree; so i'll leave her at high C tier

Tim Drake
- Tim could possibly be higher, but I've always seen him as the least remarkable fighter of Batman's protégés. I'm sure he was nice back in the day but I feel like he's just high C tier nowadays

Mal Duncan

Luke Fox


D Tier (Decent/Upper Brawler Tier)
Guy Gardner
John Constantine



In need of placement:
Question
King Snake
Constantine Drakon
Shado
Shrike
Lady Vic
Stephanie Brown
Hush
David Cain
Duke Thomas
Red X
Silencer
Flatline
Two-Face (Preist made him a legit martial artist iirc)
Midnighter
Prometheus
Mr. Terrific
Onyx
John Stewart

[lemonpeace]

I'm also curious as to what are some of yall favorite martial arts series btw. feel free to drop those as well.

[mrjames21]

not me, not yet



I remember he destroyed a meteor with a kick. I think he also stopped a tidal wave. Karate Kid regularly performed superhuman feats that the comic just ascribed to his martial arts skills. So in my opinion you either have to accept his feats or disregard the character entirely from this ranking



If we are bringing in characters from other earths and dimensions this is going to be a ginormous list. I'll have to reread thatThomas Wayne arc I don't remember it as well.

Karate Kid beat Superboy in hand to hand combat (no kryptonite). Being human and beating a fully powered kryptonian puts him at that level.

What about the female Judomaster? I know she can't be touched and she fights like Cassie by reading body language. New characters like Ghost Maker? What about Catwoman, Harley Quinn?

[John Venus]

Denny O'Neil's Question run and Cassandra Cain's Batgirl run is the closest we've ever gotten to a 'modern' DC martial arts series. Dragon's first series feels more antiquated now and I'm not a fan of Dixon's Richard Dragon mini either.