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  1. #121
    Extraordinary Member j9ac9k's Avatar
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    I liked the movie, but one big character point prevented me from liking it more (in addition to the overly long CGI monster battle at the end):
    -- Shang doesn't seem to really want anything. The main thrust of his arc was about him "no longer hiding from himself" - to embrace the good and bad in himself... or something. Various characters tell it to him, but I'm not sure how the plot or Shang's actions really show this journey for him. He initially fights to protect himself, then he wants to protect his sister, then he wants to protect the village, then he has to protect the world. Each step along the way he's put in a position to fight as the stakes get bigger, but aside from deciding to kill his father, then changing his mind, I didn't feel any journey like the dialogue kept insisting was his arc. Even after he obtains the rings, they clearly show us that he's not really changed. He's just put in a new position where he'll likely have to do more fighting.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by j9ac9k View Post
    I liked the movie, but one big character point prevented me from liking it more (in addition to the overly long CGI monster battle at the end):
    -- Shang doesn't seem to really want anything. The main thrust of his arc was about him "no longer hiding from himself" - to embrace the good and bad in himself... or something. Various characters tell it to him, but I'm not sure how the plot or Shang's actions really show this journey for him. He initially fights to protect himself, then he wants to protect his sister, then he wants to protect the village, then he has to protect the world. Each step along the way he's put in a position to fight as the stakes get bigger, but aside from deciding to kill his father, then changing his mind, I didn't feel any journey like the dialogue kept insisting was his arc. Even after he obtains the rings, they clearly show us that he's not really changed. He's just put in a new position where he'll likely have to do more fighting.
    Near as I can figure this is Shang's character arc:

    Shang hates his Father and wants nothing to do with him, but not being insane is willing to just ignore him until he is personally attacked and believes his sister has been targeted.

    So he wanted to save his sister at least. But when he realized she didn't need his help he mostly is reacting to stuff.

    He went from ignoring his Father to being convinced that he had to put him down like a mad dog pretty quickly. It's almost like the idea had occurred to him before ( no surprise there).

    He may have gotten past wanting to commit patricide, the other issue the movie has is the idea that both Shang and Awkwafina are underachievers.

    However the issue is they were happy underachievers, so it's not like they had a need to do more (heck, Shang knows what he is capable of and deliberately hid it).

    I'm not trying to disagree with you here. I'm trying to figure out Shang's character arc and....I got nothing.

  3. #123
    Extraordinary Member j9ac9k's Avatar
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    This is a complete nitpick, but it bothered me when I watched the movie and it's one of those things where the plot took precedence over what makes sense:
    -- How in the world did it take Wenwu so many years to track down the man who killed his wife? They knew which gang did it, so it's not like they had nothing to go on.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by j9ac9k View Post
    This is a complete nitpick, but it bothered me when I watched the movie and it's one of those things where the plot took precedence over what makes sense:
    -- How in the world did it take Wenwu so many years to track down the man who killed his wife? They knew which gang did it, so it's not like they had nothing to go on.
    I assume being a crime boss (even a low rent one) gives you enough resources to disappear if you really need to.

    But...did Wenwu specifically want Shang to kill the guy? He had bereaved them both, and Wenwu clearly views vengeance as a matter for the entire family.

    I had just assumed he waited until Shang could do it for him as a representative of thier family/clan and not that he couldn't find the guy. Maybe I got that bit wrong.

  5. #125
    Astonishing Member Frobisher's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vic Vega View Post
    I assume being a crime boss (even a low rent one) gives you enough resources to disappear if you really need to.

    But...did Wenwu specifically want Shang to kill the guy? He had bereaved them both, and Wenwu clearly views vengeance as a matter for the entire family.

    I had just assumed he waited until Shang could do it for him as a representative of thier family/clan and not that he couldn't find the guy. Maybe I got that bit wrong.
    I think that's the most likely explanation. He never didn't know where the guy was. Shang also believed he was living under the radar from his father for ten years, and that proved to be a fiction.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vic Vega View Post

    My take: You can't redeem Yellow Peril Stereo type Fu Manchu for modern movie audiences. You can't redeem his somewhat more interesting carbon copy Mandarin either.
    You don't need to "redeem" them. The Yellow Peril is still here- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kA2KaEKs1LA

    Fu Manchu and the Mandarin are perfect representations of a government that wants world domination.

  7. #127
    Extraordinary Member j9ac9k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hareluyafan1 View Post
    You don't need to "redeem" them. The Yellow Peril is still here- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kA2KaEKs1LA

    Fu Manchu and the Mandarin are perfect representations of a government that wants world domination.
    Yeah, that's a totally valid justification for your racism.
    Last edited by j9ac9k; 09-26-2021 at 05:23 PM.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by j9ac9k View Post
    Yeah, that's a totally valid justification for your racism.
    Are you saying you support a government that commits cultural genocide and puts people in concentration camps? Is that the government you want ruling the world?

  9. #129
    Astonishing Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hareluyafan1 View Post
    Are you saying you support a government that commits cultural genocide and puts people in concentration camps? Is that the government you want ruling the world?
    No, he's saying that you can disagree with the politics of a person or country with out stooping to using very obvious racist caricatures.

    Who knew being a decent human being was so hard?
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  10. #130
    Ultimate Member Kirby101's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hareluyafan1 View Post
    Are you saying you support a government that commits cultural genocide and puts people in concentration camps? Is that the government you want ruling the world?
    I think he is saying that just because a government is bad, doesn't mean that racism infused with characters like Fu Manchu can be justified.

    America has done some really awful things in it's history. As recently as the Iraq War, which can be seen as a War Crime. But should any American character be seen as inherently evil because of the country?
    And remember Mandarin is from China, but China from thousands of years ago. So how does what The Peoples Republic do make him an evil representative of China. Unless one is saying the Chinese are inherently evil.
    There came a time when the Old Gods died! The Brave died with the Cunning! The Noble perished locked in battle with unleashed Evil! It was the last day for them! An ancient era was passing in fiery holocaust!

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirby101 View Post
    I think he is saying that just because a government is bad, doesn't mean that racism infused with characters like Fu Manchu can be justified.

    America has done some really awful things in it's history. As recently as the Iraq War, which can be seen as a War Crime. But should any American character be seen as inherently evil because of the country?
    And remember Mandarin is from China, but China from thousands of years ago. So how does what The Peoples Republic do make him an evil representative of China. Unless one is saying the Chinese are inherently evil.

    Personally I think al little of the problem is we in the west, automatically( not always) think something is racist if some other race is portrayed as a villain. I don't really know what the solution is. But western movies have no issue portraying a white person as bad for example a Russian or some Eastern European or heck we have seen this a million times, A british guy. Now I don't associate that with racism or even disdain toward that particular country. But one could right? Need someone evil? Make em a russian mobster. No one asks the Russians what they think about that. I mean having a Russian guy, with tattoos being brutal, drinking vodka would be a stereotype of a particular country right?

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by inisideguy View Post
    Personally I think al little of the problem is we in the west, automatically( not always) think something is racist if some other race is portrayed as a villain. I don't really know what the solution is. But western movies have no issue portraying a white person as bad for example a Russian or some Eastern European or heck we have seen this a million times, A british guy. Now I don't associate that with racism or even disdain toward that particular country. But one could right? Need someone evil? Make em a russian mobster. No one asks the Russians what they think about that. I mean having a Russian guy, with tattoos being brutal, drinking vodka would be a stereotype of a particular country right?
    That's because the west doesn't have a history of oppressing other white people the way they do with Asians. So when you have a group that has been the subject of racism/bigotry and then also only portray them as villains in your movies/shows, it's a bit problematic.

  13. #133
    Astonishing Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by inisideguy View Post
    Personally I think al little of the problem is we in the west, automatically( not always) think something is racist if some other race is portrayed as a villain. I don't really know what the solution is. But western movies have no issue portraying a white person as bad for example a Russian or some Eastern European or heck we have seen this a million times, A british guy. Now I don't associate that with racism or even disdain toward that particular country. But one could right? Need someone evil? Make em a russian mobster. No one asks the Russians what they think about that. I mean having a Russian guy, with tattoos being brutal, drinking vodka would be a stereotype of a particular country right?
    Partially it's the villain thing, as it's often the only representation given other than sexy dragon lady, but mostly the racism stems from the depiction itself which uses out dated cultural imagery.
    Where as there are many roles open to people of Russian heritage and they don't all have to do with being bond villains.
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  14. #134
    Astonishing Member Captain Craig's Avatar
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    I finally saw this yesterday. I enjoyed it and that fight on the bus was worth the price of admission.

    I rate it a solid B+

    Pros:
    Action sequences
    Mythology elements
    Use of other MCU characters in bit parts(except Wong who got some shine time here).

    Cons:
    No Abomination fight? What a bust.
    Suffered from Origin film lag at least twice.
    Shang-Chi's character arc was weak. The only constant in the film with the source is: Dad is Bad, must stop dad. Ok so sister is in trouble, no not really she can take care of herself. It then dovetails into stopping dad from opening the Iron Gate and "saving the world" but it didn't feel very organic.

    So with the mid-credits that means Shang-Chi takes place not too long after Endgame since Bruce still has his arm in a sling, right?
    With the end credit the sister now leads the terrorist group, really??? It is not like she even has the 10 Rings. She leads basically due to blood right I suppose? I still can't fathom why?
    "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings" - Optimus Prime

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by inisideguy View Post
    Personally I think al little of the problem is we in the west, automatically( not always) think something is racist if some other race is portrayed as a villain. I don't really know what the solution is. But western movies have no issue portraying a white person as bad for example a Russian or some Eastern European or heck we have seen this a million times, A british guy. Now I don't associate that with racism or even disdain toward that particular country. But one could right? Need someone evil? Make em a russian mobster. No one asks the Russians what they think about that. I mean having a Russian guy, with tattoos being brutal, drinking vodka would be a stereotype of a particular country right?
    That's because it often happens like that. Of course people see racism where it is. There's also a problem in the West of ignoring racism too

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