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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by j9ac9k View Post
    I didn't say POC can't be evil or irredeemable characters. I said as long as they're not being depicted as dehumanizing racial stereotypes.


    Going with the Netflix shows, the leaders of the Hand were non-white except for Sigourney. Cage and Iron Fist and Daredevil had a bunch of villains who weren't white. Mordo from Dr Strange, they added an immigrant background to Maxwell Lord and he was the villain. Electro, Godspeed, Bloodwork, Ra's Al Ghul (from Gotham), Amanda Waller, etc... There are plenty of bad guys who are POC.
    Daredevil had roles for non white villains. But lets be honest here. It centered around, Kingpin, Electra, Punisher. But you have a point. The Hand is primarily an asian organization. Even if they have a white girl( greek) and are trying to make her the leader of it. Electro they went with they he is just misunderstood guy lets give him a reason. But for most people Fox didn't work in that. Not cause he isn't a great actor they didn't buy the whole thing. Ras Al Ghul is a good point in Gotham although I barely remember him. But even with the first Nolan Batman flick who do they actually make Ra's? A white guy. I will give it to ya if in the next appearance in a huge Batman movie they make Ra's a guy from the Middle East or Turkey or something. Ill wait.

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by inisideguy View Post
    I agree with that. The problem is right now everything has swung so far that Hollywood is scared to just make a minority a bad guy for bad guys sake. If you are an African American actor, or a Chinese actor you don't have a chance in heck of getting a role as the big bad, in a Bond Film or A mission impossible film now. Maybe thats Hollywoods fault for not making these type of films nuanced and how I can feel somewhat sympathetic to a guy who wants to nerve gas the world or something. I watched Baby Driver. Jamie Fox played a bad dude. Now it was a secondary role to the main bad dude who was a white guy but ok. Now when I watched baby driver I didn't think man Jamie Fox is a freaking dirtbag they must have cast him cause he's black. Who thinks that? I don't even think Hollywood knows wtf they are suppose to do to make everyone happy.

    I don't know who directed Baby Driver, but I respect that. Because they had the balls to portray a black guy villain as just that. A crazy SOB who is a villain. Not because he is black, not because he got picked on in school, or didn't have good parents or racism in society. He is just a bad guy. Not every movie or tv show needs to explain the motivations behind every lunatic in every movie. And I would wager Jamie Fox appreciated they gave him the opportunity to play just that type of character.
    There's a huge difference between Fox's character in Baby Driver and Fu Mancu though...one's just your run of the mill bad guy and the other is an offensive stereotype from head to toe and if you can't see the difference I don't know what to say.
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  3. #153
    Astonishing Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by inisideguy View Post
    Daredevil had roles for non white villains. But lets be honest here. It centered around, Kingpin, Electra, Punisher. But you have a point. The Hand is primarily an asian organization. Even if they have a white girl( greek) and are trying to make her the leader of it. Electro they went with they he is just misunderstood guy lets give him a reason. But for most people Fox didn't work in that. Not cause he isn't a great actor they didn't buy the whole thing. Ras Al Ghul is a good point in Gotham although I barely remember him. But even with the first Nolan Batman flick who do they actually make Ra's? A white guy. I will give it to ya if in the next appearance in a huge Batman movie they make Ra's a guy from the Middle East or Turkey or something. Ill wait.
    Like Fu Manchu Ra's is the kind of character that has to be either reinvented like in Batman Begins or toned way down to make it to the screen...and again its for very obvious reasons.
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  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    There's a huge difference between Fox's character in Baby Driver and Fu Mancu though...one's just your run of the mill bad guy and the other is an offensive stereotype from head to toe and if you can't see the difference I don't know what to say.

    Thats my point. When Hollywood casts a white villain no on sees any stereotype. Ha. I would argue that every white guy running a corporation who is cast as a villain is cast directly in the evil white guy running a giant corporation stereotype. Cause thats who runs evil corporations right? Evil white guys? Isn't that by its very nature racist? Why not put an evil black guy as head of an evil corporation? Whats wrong with that? I personally think Hollywood is to sensitive with this stuff. The audience can handle it. As long as its done in a way, that has nothing to do with someones race. But mostly they want to shy away from the whole thing therefore minorities dont get these type of roles. Which they should. Everything is getting put into a box and its restricting things. I mean I can turn on the tv anyday of the week and see tv stereotyping stupid white people. Just watch an episode of the Simpsons. And I don't care there are plenty of stupid white people. But there are plenty of stupid people period. And there are plenty of evil villains in comics and in the movies. Those roles don't need to be only crazy evil white men. I would freaking love it if the Next Green Goblin was African American. But we all know that won't happen.

    I will edit that and say one of Moonknights main villains is Bushman. Now it will be very interesting to see if or how they handle this at Marvel. Should we not make him black? Should we have him at all? He by his very nature doesnt need to be black. But he is in the comics. Will they tread this ground? Will they make him into some Nobel villain who is just misunderstood and actually has a legit cause for his actions? My guess is they don't touch this with a ten foot pole.
    Last edited by inisideguy; 09-27-2021 at 02:27 PM.

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by inisideguy View Post
    Thats my point. When Hollywood casts a white villain no on sees any stereotype. Ha. I would argue that every white guy running a corporation who is cast as a villain is cast directly in the evil white guy running a giant corporation stereotype. Cause thats who runs evil corporations right? Evil white guys? Isn't that by its very nature racist? Why not put an evil black guy as head of an evil corporation? Whats wrong with that? I personally think Hollywood is to sensitive with this stuff. The audience can handle it. As long as its done in a way, that has nothing to do with someones race. But mostly they want to shy away from the whole thing therefore minorities dont get these type of roles. Which they should. Everything is getting put into a box and its restricting things. I mean I can turn on the tv anyday of the week and see tv stereotyping stupid white people. Just watch an episode of the Simpsons. And I don't care there are plenty of stupid white people. But there are plenty of stupid people period. And there are plenty of evil villains in comics and in the movies. Those roles don't need to be only crazy evil white men. I would freaking love it if the Next Green Goblin was African American. But we all know that won't happen.

    I will edit that and say one of Moonknights main villains is Bushman. Now it will be very interesting to see if or how they handle this at Marvel. Should we not make him black? Should we have him at all? He by his very nature doesnt need to be black. But he is in the comics. Will they tread this ground? Will they make him into some Nobel villain who is just misunderstood and actually has a legit cause for his actions? My guess is they don't touch this with a ten foot pole.
    It's not racist because there are all kinds of other roles for white actors in western cinema. If it was something that was done say strictly in African made films where the only roles for white African actors were evil corporate guys you might have a point...but in American cinema white is the default sadly in terms of casting so there are far more options and representation then isn't an issue so it doesn't send any kind of message that the corporate sleezeballs are white. But when there are so few roles offered to actors of color to begin with and the majority of roles offered tend to be negative then it does then send a message to the audience and its not a good one.
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  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    It's not racist because there are all kinds of other roles for white actors in western cinema. If it was something that was done say strictly in African made films where the only roles for white African actors were evil corporate guys you might have a point...but in American cinema white is the default sadly in terms of casting so there are far more options and representation then isn't an issue so it doesn't send any kind of message that the corporate sleezeballs are white. But when there are so few roles offered to actors of color to begin with and the majority of roles offered tend to be negative then it does then send a message to the audience and its not a good one.

    But you are running into a situation now where you can't cast a minority as a really bad guy even it you want to. My wife and I were laughing we just watched Jungle Cruise not to long ago. Fun movie. My wife is German actually born in Germany. So in that movie that takes place Brazil, you have two sets of bad guys. The conquistadors who are dead people. And just for the kick of it, NAZIS. But not really Nazis cause this is World War 1. My wife is pretty open minded and she just accepts Germans have a 30 percent chance in any movie to be the bad guys. So basically throw in some white guys on a sub, and make them Nazis. I mean we laugh cause it doesnt matter what time period Hollywood will find a way to throw in Nazis. I will say we were just talking about this subject and she got me with one evil bad black guy recently. Samuel Jackson in the Kingsman. Bam. I was owned.

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by inisideguy View Post
    But you are running into a situation now where you can't cast a minority as a really bad guy even it you want to. My wife and I were laughing we just watched Jungle Cruise not to long ago. Fun movie. My wife is German actually born in Germany. So in that movie that takes place Brazil, you have two sets of bad guys. The conquistadors who are dead people. And just for the kick of it, NAZIS. But not really Nazis cause this is World War 1. My wife is pretty open minded and she just accepts Germans have a 30 percent chance in any movie to be the bad guys. So basically throw in some white guys on a sub, and make them Nazis. I mean we laugh cause it doesnt matter what time period Hollywood will find a way to throw in Nazis. I will say we were just talking about this subject and she got me with one evil bad black guy recently. Samuel Jackson in the Kingsman. Bam. I was owned.
    A German actor could be cast as a nazi, sure...but because of the way Hollywood is said German actor could also take one of a hundred other roles as well. But if you're black and the majority of the options are pimp, thug, drug dealer, corrupt cop or gang-member it becomes problematic.
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  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    A German actor could be cast as a nazi, sure...but because of the way Hollywood is said German actor could also take one of a hundred other roles as well. But if you're black and the majority of the options are pimp, thug, drug dealer, corrupt cop or gang-member it becomes problematic.
    Exactly. In a white dominated Hollywood, there will always be all kinds of roles for white guys - good, bad, and everything in between. For POC, breaking out of the stereotypical roles white Hollywood has pigeonholed them in is and always has been an uphill battle.
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  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    A German actor could be cast as a nazi, sure...but because of the way Hollywood is said German actor could also take one of a hundred other roles as well. But if you're black and the majority of the options are pimp, thug, drug dealer, corrupt cop or gang-member it becomes problematic.
    I think you missed my point. The germans in Jungle cruise were not Nazis. There were no such thing in 1914. But screw it they basically cast them as Nazis anyway. I mean ya could have had any evil treasure hunters down there in Brazil. But hey we can always use Germans right? It really doesnt matter what time period the movie takes place.

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by phonogram12 View Post
    Exactly. In a white dominated Hollywood, there will always be all kinds of roles for white guys - good, bad, and everything in between. For POC, breaking out of the stereotypical roles white Hollywood has pigeonholed them in is and always has been an uphill battle.
    Again. I don't know if you guys are understanding it. Hollywood is basically limiting rolls for minorities playing villains based on the fact that they don't want to cast them in a stereotypical evil villain role for the most part. We are at a point, where there are a lot of black actors working. But if you are going to have a megalomaniacal villain, well the white guy is your man. Cause he offends no one being a megalomaniacal prick.

  11. #161
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    You're acting like there was a huge variety of roles non-White actors could play

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by inisideguy View Post
    Again. I don't know if you guys are understanding it. Hollywood is basically limiting rolls for minorities playing villains based on the fact that they don't want to cast them in a stereotypical evil villain role for the most part. We are at a point, where there are a lot of black actors working. But if you are going to have a megalomaniacal villain, well the white guy is your man. Cause he offends no one being a megalomaniacal prick.
    If anything, Hollywood is widening it's roles for POC instead of pigeonholing them. And as a POC, it's very much appreciated. But as someone just mentioned, POC still often play the maniacal villain. I mean, Samuel L. Jackson in the first Kingsman and as someone already said, Amanda Waller.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    You're acting like there was a huge variety of roles non-White actors could play
    Exactly. It's going with the assumption that Hollywood has always been an even playing field for everyone, which it hasn't. Not by a long shot.

    Shang-Chi has proven we have come a long way from Long Duk Dong from Sixteen Candles. And the further we get away from that horrible stereotype, the better.
    Last edited by phonogram12; 09-27-2021 at 05:55 PM.
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  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    You're acting like there was a huge variety of roles non-White actors could play

    Heck yea there is! You don't think there is?

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by phonogram12 View Post
    If anything, Hollywood is widening it's roles for POC instead of pigeonholing them. And as a POC, it's very much apprecia ted. But as someone just mentioned, POC still often play the maniacal villain. I mean, Samuel L. Jackson in the first Kingsman and as someone already said, Amanda Waller.



    Exactly. It's going with the assumption that Hollywood has always been an even playing field for everyone, which it hasn't. Not by a long shot.

    Shang-Chi has proven we have come a long way from Long Duk Dong from Sixteen Candles. And the further we get away from that horrible stereotype, the better.
    I didn't say that Hollywood is an even playing field. I am saying that the PC culture is inadvertently limiting that field that African Americans or Asians can play. Because many roles just need a really bad guy who do really bad things. And producers are reluctant to cast african Americans and asians in these rolls for fear of people saying oh why did you make them so evil. So directors are just avoiding the subject. And I mentioned Sam Jackson. Amanda Waller isn't a great person granted. But I wouldn't call her your typical diabolical evil villain either.

  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by inisideguy View Post
    Heck yea there is! You don't think there is?
    Not historically. That's why films are trying to give wider roles to minority characters rather than the old stereotypes, which include one-dimensional villains. PC culture isn't limiting minorities.

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