Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings *Spoilers*

[j9ac9k]

Personally I think al little of the problem is we in the west, automatically( not always) think something is racist if some other race is portrayed as a villain. I don't really know what the solution is. But western movies have no issue portraying a white person as bad for example a Russian or some Eastern European or heck we have seen this a million times, A british guy. Now I don't associate that with racism or even disdain toward that particular country. But one could right? Need someone evil? Make em a russian mobster. No one asks the Russians what they think about that. I mean having a Russian guy, with tattoos being brutal, drinking vodka would be a stereotype of a particular country right?

One solution was presented in this movie - Wenwu is the villain, but he's not a dehumanizing racial stereotype. (there are plenty more - I think you're overstating the resistance to see POC as villains, though studios seem more gun-shy about it. Stereotypical depictions of Russian or German villains are bad too if those depictions demean an entire nationality and the filmmaker should be called out on it.

[inisideguy]

That's because the west doesn't have a history of oppressing other white people the way they do with Asians. So when you have a group that has been the subject of racism/bigotry and then also only portray them as villains in your movies/shows, it's a bit problematic.

I think its way more complex than that when portraying "villains". I don't think we think about it much when we see A German or an English guy portrayed as a villain. Which they are constantly. We just accept it. I don't have the answers. But I would be curious if Films in China or Japan or wherever have the same hangups about who they cast as villains in their various movies. Does Japan not have a Korean guy as a villain in a film because of what they did there? I don't know.

[inisideguy]

One solution was presented in this movie - Wenwu is the villain, but he's not a dehumanizing racial stereotype. (there are plenty more - I think you're overstating the resistance to see POC as villains, though studios seem more gun-shy about it. Stereotypical depictions of Russian or German villains are bad too if those depictions demean an entire nationality and the filmmaker should be called out on it.

Sure thats a solution. But guys like the Red Skull, or Klaw are portrayed as evil with no redeemable qualities. Being evil with no redeemable qualities shouldn't only be constrained to white guys or women.

[Kirby101]

Personally I think al little of the problem is we in the west, automatically( not always) think something is racist if some other race is portrayed as a villain. I don't really know what the solution is. But western movies have no issue portraying a white person as bad for example a Russian or some Eastern European or heck we have seen this a million times, A british guy. Now I don't associate that with racism or even disdain toward that particular country. But one could right? Need someone evil? Make em a russian mobster. No one asks the Russians what they think about that. I mean having a Russian guy, with tattoos being brutal, drinking vodka would be a stereotype of a particular country right?

I don't think Mandarin as a villain was racist. I think hareluyafan1 using the term Yellow Peril and saying it's appropriate is racist.

[inisideguy]

I don't think Mandarin as a villain was racist. I think hareluyafan1 using the term Yellow Peril and saying it's appropriate is racist.

Personally I don't look at a villains race and think they need to make him redeemable because well he is black or asian. I think many people do. I don't want a PC Red skull or to see his side of the story. He's an evil Nazi. You don't have to make him redeemable. And no one should be looking to make Killmonger redeemable or see his side of things either. But it is what it is.

I mean the villain in Black Widow is a pretty typical example Dreykov. He was an evil Russian. I didn't need a back story on him explaining why he is doing bad things. Maybe the argument could be made well, he was just a plot device. Sure. Seems like a lot of white guy villains are just plot devices. Not that anyone cares what the Russians think because the market over there for Marvel Movies aint that big.

[CosmiComic]

Sure thats a solution. But guys like the Red Skull, or Klaw are portrayed as evil with no redeemable qualities. Being evil with no redeemable qualities shouldn't only be constrained to white guys or women.

It never has been. But it's also not been the case of villains historically always or mostly being like that for White villains. It has been so for non-White villains

[inisideguy]

It never has been. But it's also not been the case of villains historically always or mostly being like that for White villains. It has been so for non-White villains

I don't know what you mean by historically. There are probably 30 bond films dating from the early 60s that have evil white guys who have no redeemable qualities who want to destroy the world.


What has happened is we as a society don't care about a white guys or womens "complex" back story when they are portrayed in most movies. They are just bad. Denzel can go in and wipe a room of Russian mobsters and we don't think boy what was the story behind them. We just accept it. But we as a society have decided that casting evil white people who are just evil( with some exceptions) is fine. We really don't think about it. The winter soldier is a pretty good example. I thought Robert Redford was a good bad guy. He was a terrible person. He had motivations sure but they were not all that complex. Would Marvel cast a black guy in that same role? Or an Asian guy? I doubt it.


That being said I brought up Denzel. He was basically a evil dude in Training day. And he was great at it. He was the lowest of the low. Not because he was black but because he was a terrible person. I don't even know if a movie like Training day could be made right now.

[MichaelC]

That being said I brought up Denzel. He was basically a evil dude in Training day. And he was great at it. He was the lowest of the low. Not because he was black but because he was a terrible person. I don't even know if a movie like Training day could be made right now.

It couldn't. And this obsession with casting only white men as pure evil villains has the ironic effect of banishing non-white actors from some of the juiciest rolls in movies. No non-white Jokers or Hannibal Lecturs would even be considered, and they are awesome roles that any actor would love a shot at.

[inisideguy]

It couldn't. And this obsession with casting only white men as pure evil villains has the ironic effect of banishing non-white actors from some of the juiciest rolls in movies. No non-white Jokers or Hannibal Lecturs would even be considered, and they are awesome roles that any actor would love a shot at.

Yep these guys are being put into a box. Ironically they are being deprived of evil guy roles because Hollywood doesnt want to cast someone who isn't white in a strictly bad guy role. I was thinking of Phillip Seymore Hoffman in Mission Impossible 3. Great freaking bad guy. I didn't need him to be redeemable or find out he was abused as a child. He was bad. There was no time to think in the movie why is this guy bad. He was able to chew up the role. There are so many great minorities who would love a role like that. But they can't get it because the movie would spend all this time explain you know he's not really that bad, he just has a tough background ya gotta understand it. Mission Impossible or bond doesnt have time for that. And the audience isn't interested in feeling for the bad guy.

[Vic Vega]

Many if not nearly all 80's action movie villains were giggling, Coke snorting maniacs, whose over the top evil justified the hero's tactics in killing them in over the top ways.

When an Alan Rickman is playing a character like that, it works. Anyone else does it and it's mostly silly.

When a POC is cast as a giggling psycho, or a slang spitting psycho it's off putting, because it's usually even more cartoonish than in other films. Mainstream media isn't very nuanced when it comes to POC characters so making them villains will result in an even more extreme cartoon.

Marvel comics got where they did by pushing the villains you could sympathise with. Primarily the Xbooks and the movies that came after.

It's no surprise that the better MCU films try the same thing.

Or that when they do so they sometimes use POCs to play these roles.

It's really odd to me to worry about POCs not being able to get roles like Training Day anymore.

An actor would have to be a Denzel level star to get cast in an Oscar Bait Villain centric movie in the first place. It's not like they make these kinds of movies all the time.

[inisideguy]

Many if not nearly all 80's action movie villains were giggling, Coke snorting maniacs, whose over the top evil justified the hero's tactics in killing them in over the top ways.

When an Alan Rickman is playing a character like that, it works. Anyone else does it and it's mostly silly.

When a POC is cast as a giggling psycho, or a slang spitting psycho it's off putting, because it's usually even more cartoonish than in other films. Mainstream media isn't very nuanced when it comes to POC characters so making them villains will result in an even more extreme cartoon.

Marvel comics got where they did by pushing the villains you could sympathise with. Primarily the Xbooks and the movies that came after.

It's no surprise that the better MCU films try the same thing.

Or that when they do so they sometimes use POCs to play these roles.

It's really odd to me to worry about POCs not being able to get roles like Training Day anymore.

An actor would have to be a Denzel level star to get cast in an Oscar Bait Villain centric movie in the first place. It's not like they make these kinds of movies all the time.

There are tons of rolls for cackling bad guys. And who gets them? White guys. Because in most respects you can't have a cackling minority bad guy. I agree that many movies benefit depending on the movie not just to have a purely evil dude. But some movies just by their nature require them. You can nuance bad guys in tv series and such. But an hour an 45 minute Mission Impossible or James Bond movie doesnt need nuance. Thats not what they are about. Hunger games is another example. President Snow was an awful human being. No one in the audience wanted to know about the nuance of President Snow. And it wouldn't have made the movie better or his role better. What was required was a psychopath as a villain who was truly awful. Could an African American have played president snow? sure. Heck yea. But then they honestly couldn't cast an African American in that role. Because they don't want to just say this guy is a piece of garbage. And Hunger Games didn't want to spend 45 minutes explaining to you wow President Snow is really bad but he isn't that bad he just kind of lost direction at one point. No one needs that in a film like that. So while everyone is looking at racism and sterotyping in movies one way, they are not seeing the big picture the other way. I loved Denzel in Training day. The reason it worked is you as an audience member don't want to know about Denzel and his past and why he is why he is. He just is.

[CosmiComic]

I don't know what you mean by historically. There are probably 30 bond films dating from the early 60s that have evil white guys who have no redeemable qualities who want to destroy the world.


What has happened is we as a society don't care about a white guys or womens "complex" back story when they are portrayed in most movies. They are just bad. Denzel can go in and wipe a room of Russian mobsters and we don't think boy what was the story behind them. We just accept it. But we as a society have decided that casting evil white people who are just evil( with some exceptions) is fine. We really don't think about it. The winter soldier is a pretty good example. I thought Robert Redford was a good bad guy. He was a terrible person. He had motivations sure but they were not all that complex. Would Marvel cast a black guy in that same role? Or an Asian guy? I doubt it.


That being said I brought up Denzel. He was basically a evil dude in Training day. And he was great at it. He was the lowest of the low. Not because he was black but because he was a terrible person. I don't even know if a movie like Training day could be made right now.

You're acting like White people victims of Hollywood. They're not, at least not for being White. White women have been, but for being women.

[inisideguy]

You're acting like White people victims of Hollywood. They're not, at least not for being White. White women have been, but for being women.

I am not acting like white people are victims in Hollywood. Heck they are getting bad guy roles left and right because Hollywood doesnt want to cast minorities in those rolls. Its a typical example of Hollywood overreacting to what you stated that minorities have been cast as bad guys in the past and we can't put them in this position. So now when we need a psycho bad guy AKA Carnage, or Justin Hammer, or The Joker, or, The Green Goblin, or, Scarecrow or whomever he is gonna be white. Personally I think Hollywood has totally overacted, and there are minorities who are missing out on these rolls because they can't be casts in that light in this environment. I watched the first season of Jessica Jones awhile back. The actor who plays the purple man does an amazing job. There is no reason the purple man has to be a white british guy. But what African American or other minority are you going to cast in a roll like that in this day and age. Honest question.

[j9ac9k]

Sure thats a solution. But guys like the Red Skull, or Klaw are portrayed as evil with no redeemable qualities. Being evil with no redeemable qualities shouldn't only be constrained to white guys or women.

I didn't say POC can't be evil or irredeemable characters. I said as long as they're not being depicted as dehumanizing racial stereotypes.

I am not acting like white people are victims in Hollywood. Heck they are getting bad guy roles left and right because Hollywood doesnt want to cast minorities in those rolls. Its a typical example of Hollywood overreacting to what you stated that minorities have been cast as bad guys in the past and we can't put them in this position. So now when we need a psycho bad guy AKA Carnage, or Justin Hammer, or The Joker, or, The Green Goblin, or, Scarecrow or whomever he is gonna be white. Personally I think Hollywood has totally overacted, and there are minorities who are missing out on these rolls because they can't be casts in that light in this environment. I watched the first season of Jessica Jones awhile back. The actor who plays the purple man does an amazing job. There is no reason the purple man has to be a white british guy. But what African American or other minority are you going to cast in a roll like that in this day and age. Honest question.

Going with the Netflix shows, the leaders of the Hand were non-white except for Sigourney. Cage and Iron Fist and Daredevil had a bunch of villains who weren't white. Mordo from Dr Strange, they added an immigrant background to Maxwell Lord and he was the villain. Electro, Godspeed, Bloodwork, Ra's Al Ghul (from Gotham), Amanda Waller, etc... There are plenty of bad guys who are POC.

[inisideguy]

I didn't say POC can't be evil or irredeemable characters. I said as long as they're not being depicted as dehumanizing racial stereotypes.

I agree with that. The problem is right now everything has swung so far that Hollywood is scared to just make a minority a bad guy for bad guys sake. If you are an African American actor, or a Chinese actor you don't have a chance in heck of getting a role as the big bad, in a Bond Film or A mission impossible film now. Maybe thats Hollywoods fault for not making these type of films nuanced and how I can feel somewhat sympathetic to a guy who wants to nerve gas the world or something. I watched Baby Driver. Jamie Fox played a bad dude. Now it was a secondary role to the main bad dude who was a white guy but ok. Now when I watched baby driver I didn't think man Jamie Fox is a freaking dirtbag they must have cast him cause he's black. Who thinks that? I don't even think Hollywood knows wtf they are suppose to do to make everyone happy.

I don't know who directed Baby Driver, but I respect that. Because they had the balls to portray a black guy villain as just that. A crazy SOB who is a villain. Not because he is black, not because he got picked on in school, or didn't have good parents or racism in society. He is just a bad guy. Not every movie or tv show needs to explain the motivations behind every lunatic in every movie. And I would wager Jamie Fox appreciated they gave him the opportunity to play just that type of character.