How would changing the sex or race, or both, of an X-character change *them*?

[Su_Whisterfield]

What I was trying to say is that any of those changes affects the character internally. Maybe as readers we won't see it very often and it won't be obvious to us, because we look at them (especially nowadays) from an outside perspective. But given a certain circumstance, the character would/should react differently if they have a different gender or race (and if the writer is thinking of them as if they were a real person).

The way I see it, like a real person, the characters should be the product of both their background and their experiences. Some things have more impact than others, but they all matter, they're all part of whole.

You change some stuff of the character (not through development, experiences, learning, etc...) and you change the character. They might still be recognisable, but they're a version of the original, just like an AU version can be recognisable.

Agreed. I actually think that removing Kurt’s circus roots would change his character as much as changing his gender would.
And I think it’s very clear that, no matter how unstable Margali ended up, he had a loving and good upbringing.

Ethnicity is weird with Kurt. I’ve had people argue until they’re, ahem, blue in the face, that he’s caucasian and therefore has white privilege.
Apart from his name, I’ve no idea what other privilege he gets?
We have no idea what Mystique is. And his paternal heritage is equally murky.
He was brought up by a Romani (even though she is a horrible 1970s caricature), one of the most oppressed and persecuted ethnic groups in Europe.

I would love to have a south Asian actor play him on screen, but once you put on the blue greasepaint, skin and ethnicity doesn’t matter, does it?

[Jackraow21]

My first choice for an ethnic change to Scott will always be Alaskan First Nation - tie him a little closer to his home state, but I like your take too.

Well, seeing as how his father was in the Air Force I kind of see him as a military brat, meaning his heritage isn’t necessarily tied to where he grew up. Him being Mexican-American and living in Alaska might’ve made him even more alienated honestly. Just a thought.

[Gray Lensman]

Well, seeing as how his father was in the Air Force I kind of see him as a military brat, meaning his heritage isn’t necessarily tied to where he grew up. Him being Mexican-American and living in Alaska might’ve made him even more alienated honestly. Just a thought.

I understand - but his grandparents (once he learned he actually had them) were from there, and Summers Cove is in the state. I actually like him being tied to the state as it is a point of both similarity and contrast to Logan, in keeping with the rivalry they were in for a long part of their history. Honestly, NOT doing something with that seems like a very big wasted opportunity to me.

[Grinning Soul]

Again, I agree. Take the original five X-Men, for example. They grew up during the 1960s, during a time of great racial discrimination. Thus, changing the race - and this includes to Black, Latino, Asian, Native American, and any other race - of either of the original five would fundamentally change their experiences and perspectives, which, in turn, would change their personalities. Additionally, if we consider how one's race affected one's station in life during the aforementioned era, how likely would it be that most of the original five would have come from affluent families, as did Warren, Bobby, and Jean? Not likely, I don't think, which would further change their experiences and perspectives.

In either case, claiming that nothing or very little about a character would change if their race or sex were changed requires overlooking a lot, including the details and nuances that distinguish and make that character who they are. I created this thread, in part, to explore the changes that would occur if a character's sex and/or race were changed, knowing full well that a lot would change for each character presented. I did not intend for this discussion to devolve into each of us presenting reasons why these changes should not be made to our favorite characters, which is beside the point of the question posed.

I understand your reasoning and I find such discussions really interesting. I like reading different points of view.

Specifically about your post, with the sliding timescale, the O5 didn’t actually grow up in the 60s. You need to adapt that a little bit, unfortunately.

But, for instance, we talked here about how Scott wouldn’t change much if he was a woman. I disagree. As a woman, every time someone questioned her authority, it would be likely to cross her mind if they were doing it because she is a woman. At the same time, there would be less challenges coming from male competitiveness. And that's just one aspect of the character.

Now, who is to say if the writer would decide to explore those different possibilities? But it becomes part of the character’s toolbox and even if they decided not to portray those differences, it still does (or should) affect the way that the character feels and interacts with the world outside.

Moreover, those changes wouldn’t happen in a vacuum. If you changed Scott sex, but didn’t change Jean’s orientation, they’d would probably still be best friends, but not a couple. The whole Dark Phoenix Saga would change, because you can’t simply swap another male character there and try to sell the same relationship - that is central to that story - any more than you can swap Jean for another female character for that role as the Phoenix.

[Grinning Soul]

Agreed. I actually think that removing Kurt’s circus roots would change his character as much as changing his gender would.
And I think it’s very clear that, no matter how unstable Margali ended up, he had a loving and good upbringing.

Ethnicity is weird with Kurt. I’ve had people argue until they’re, ahem, blue in the face, that he’s caucasian and therefore has white privilege.
Apart from his name, I’ve no idea what other privilege he gets?
We have no idea what Mystique is. And his paternal heritage is equally murky.
He was brought up by a Romani (even though she is a horrible 1970s caricature), one of the most oppressed and persecuted ethnic groups in Europe.

I would love to have a south Asian actor play him on screen, but once you put on the blue greasepaint, skin and ethnicity doesn’t matter, does it?

I don’t know if Kurt experiences white privilege because privilege comes from societal perception, right? And people don’t see him as a white person… But his Romani upbringing certainly is an integral part of his character just like his circus roots and his gender. I’d say even the fact that his native language is German plays a big role on how he thinks. :)

But really… any of those and other characteristics are part of the person he is. Change any of that and sure, he might still be the fun, loving and endearing character we love. We might even recognise him and enjoy the portrayal. But it would be a version of him. Not him.

EDIT: Sorry, I forgot to answer your question: no, the ethinicity of the actor playing Kurt shouldn't matter. Kurt has been drawn very differently throughout the decades. I don't think his facial features were consistently depicted as similar to a specific ethinic group, were they?

[Mercury]

Specifically about your post, with the sliding timescale, the O5 didn’t actually grow up in the 60s. You need to adapt that a little bit, unfortunately.

Nonetheless, changing either character's sex or race would change fundamental aspects of each character. Mind you, I am not saying that you are doing this, but claiming otherwise is equivalent to assuming that all races and genders have the same experiences and perceptions. Considering the racial discord evident and the racial inequality and discrimination spotlighted publicly within the last five years, this is clearly not the case.

[jwatson]

so... was the point of the thread for everyone to reach the conclusion that no one should be gender swapped. I got whip lash, some of the same people are now all "if anyone is changed something, even if not seen would alter some moment we may not even read ever." Vs. "Disco means dazzler can't be changed."

[Su_Whisterfield]

I don’t know if Kurt experiences white privilege because privilege comes from societal perception, right? And people don’t see him as a white person… But his Romani upbringing certainly is an integral part of his character just like his circus roots and his gender. I’d say even the fact that his native language is German plays a big role on how he thinks.

But really… any of those and other characteristics are part of the person he is. Change any of that and sure, he might still be the fun, loving and endearing character we love. We might even recognise him and enjoy the portrayal. But it would be a version of him. Not him.

EDIT: Sorry, I forgot to answer your question: no, the ethinicity of the actor playing Kurt shouldn't matter. Kurt has been drawn very differently throughout the decades. I don't think his facial features were consistently depicted as similar to a specific ethinic group, were they?

I wish writers would play on his upbringing more; I think it’s fascinating and integral to what makes Kurt, Kurt.

[Mercury]

so... was the point of the thread for everyone to reach the conclusion that no one should be gender swapped. I got whip lash, some of the same people are now all "if anyone is changed something, even if not seen would alter some moment we may not even read ever." Vs. "Disco means dazzler can't be changed."

You must have missed this:

...I created this thread, in part, to explore the changes that would occur if a character's sex and/or race were changed, knowing full well that a lot would change for each character presented. I did not intend for this discussion to devolve into each of us presenting reasons why these changes should not be made to our favorite characters, which is beside the point of the question posed.

[Grinning Soul]

Nonetheless, changing either character's sex or race would change fundamental aspects of each character. Mind you, I am not saying that you are doing this, but claiming otherwise is equivalent to assuming that all races and genders have the same experiences and perceptions. Considering the racial discord evident and the racial inequality and discrimination spotlighted publicly within the last five years, this is clearly not the case.

Sure. Depending on what you're changing and what character you're changing, I think you might end up with a character that is recognisable. But like I said, that character would be similar to an AU version of them. After all, what is an AU but an exercise in changing the character's background? The only difference is that it's just happening to all the characters at the same time.

But then again, it's fun to speculate anyway. Especially when it comes to the MCU versions of the X-Men, who would be, by definition, an AU version of them. :)

[Grinning Soul]

I wish writers would play on his upbringing more; I think it’s fascinating and integral to what makes Kurt, Kurt.

Yes! For Kurt, in particular, it would be wonderful to explore that. :)

I like learning languages, so I actually consider the languages the characters speak when I think of how their thought process should work. Another fun side of Kurt that could be explored, don't you think? :)

But I'm in favour for getting a bit more focus on the upbringing/background of every character because I honestly believe those things we experience in our early years really affect us throughout our lives and they should always help informing how the characters feel and how they act and react to the story events, added to whatever else they experienced and learned as they grew up/aged. :)

[Mercury]

Sure. Depending on what you're changing and what character you're changing, I think you might end up with a character that is recognisable. But like I said, that character would be similar to an AU version of them. After all, what is an AU but an exercise in changing the character's background? The only difference is that it's just happening to all the characters at the same time.

But then again, it's fun to speculate anyway. Especially when it comes to the MCU versions of the X-Men, who would be, by definition, an AU version of them.

It is certainly reasonable to compare, or even regard, characters who have had their sex or race changed as alternate universe versions.

[Grinning Soul]

It is certainly reasonable to compare, or even regard, characters who have had their sex or race changed as alternate universe versions.

I don't mean to disparage anyone's opinions or preferences. I hope it doesn't read like that.

I also hope it doesn't read as if I'm saying AU versions are always inferior. I'm not: they can be really interesting.

I've just spent a lot of time really considering what makes a character and I might have a different *opinion* than other people. I'm not even implying I'm right here. I still have lots of questions concerning this subject to which I was never able to get to an answer I'm satisfied with - which makes those conversations even more interesting to me.

[Mercury]

I don't mean to disparage anyone's opinions or preferences. I hope it doesn't read like that.

I also hope it doesn't read as if I'm saying AU versions are always inferior. I'm not: they can be really interesting.

I've just spent a lot of time really considering what makes a character and I might have a different *opinion* than other people. I'm not even implying I'm right here. I still have lots of questions concerning this subject to which I was never able to get to an answer I'm satisfied with - which makes those conversations even more interesting to me.

I don't think what you have said sounds disparaging in the least. The fact of the matter is, if you change the sex and/or race of any character, you are creating an alternate version of that character. Now, arguments can be made for whether changing these characteristics should matter, but, as far as I am concerned, those arguments would be subjective. In either case, it is interesting to consider what qualities are commonly associated with a particular sex or race, given their history and current standing, and to apply those qualities to various characters.

[Grinning Soul]

I don't think what you have said sounds disparaging in the least. The fact of the matter is, if you change the sex and/or race of any character, you are creating an alternate version of that character. Now, arguments can be made for whether changing these characteristics should matter, but, as far as I am concerned, those arguments would be subjective. In either case, it is interesting to consider what qualities are commonly associated with a particular sex or race, given their history and current standing, and to apply those qualities to various characters.

But even sex and race isn't an isolated issue. It also depends on where the character grew up and the smaller societal group to which they belong (or used to). It can vary a lot from country to country and even from different regions of the same country. :)