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  1. #106
    Incredible Member stillanerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    I think a lot of people aren't going to care about the mechanics behind the retcon (and they are so incredibly convoluted), just that Sins Past actually has been retconned.
    Exactly! That Marvel kept Sins Past as it was in canon for so long was just mind-boggling, so anyway that Nick Spencer could fix it was definitely appreciated.
    --Mike McNulty, a.k.a. Stillanerd. Contributor for Bam Smack Pow! and Viral Hare
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  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by stillanerd View Post
    Exactly! That Marvel kept Sins Past as it was in canon for so long was just mind-boggling, so anyway that Nick Spencer could fix it was definitely appreciated.
    I never cared for Saint Gwen but if this story means we won’t have to hear people mention Sins Past every post/comment then I’m glad this convoluted mess cleans up that other convoluted mess

  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob.schoonover View Post
    https://bleedingcool.com/comics/kind...n-73-spoilers/

    This runs through the current issue with the the older issues (SSM 200, Legacy of Evil, etc.) interwoven (read the image captions to follow along)
    Read the article as well - definitely helpful in explaining the issue and the history, but still shows how convoluted this issue is even with the understanding.

  4. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vortex85 View Post
    Norman even calls it out.... "but Harry, you died a hero." Guess it doesn't matter given Norman's deal?

    This issue made it even more unclear what Harry is mad about Peter and MJ to me. Seems like they did everything they could to help the children in Sin's Past yet Harry is saying to MJ doesn't it hurt to look at your sins? And they somehow let everyone down. Doesn't make any sense to me.
    conceptually, it is also odd that a bargain done by the father-- Norman-- can condemn the soul of the child (Harry) when Harry presumably has not willingly signed or verbally agreed to any deal with the demon Mephisto. Just very odd overall.

  5. #110
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    In short: convoluted but gives hope to have OMD adressed/fixed. But please - WE STILL DON'T KNOW ABOUT THE SINS OF PETER AND MJ!!!! I know a lot about the sinful past of Norman, Harry, AI Harry, Mysterio, Chameleon, Stacy Twins, but we don't know things regarding the main hero and his beloved woman! What is their role in this conspiracy?


    A few questions. Maybe you'll help me find the answers.

    1. Who is the second Kindred (the one who defeated Spider-Man?). Are we 100% sure he is Gabriel Stacy?
    2. If Sarah is possessed by Harry Osborn from Hell, are we 100% sure that the second Kindred (let's say he is Gabriel) is possessed by Harry Osborn from Hell as well?
    3. Is is possible that Sarah is possessed by Harry Osborn from Hell and the second Kindred is possessed by another being who is collaborating with Harry Osborn from Hell and this being has a connection to the sins of Peter and MJ?
    4. Is is possible that Sarah is possessed by male spirit (Harry Osborn) and the second Kindred (let's say his is Gabriel) is possessed by female spirit and they are kindred spirits who are seeking revenge of their fathers according to the title of this story and the theme of sins?
    5. If there is only Harry Osborn from Hell who controls both Kindreds, what are his reason to punish Peter/MJ for their sins if all his suffering has an origin in Norman Osborn's deal with Mephisto?
    6. If Harry did manage to stabilize Stacy Twins, why does Sarah's face still show degeneration?
    7. If Sarah has cellular degeneration still (although she has got a blood transfusion from Peter), is is possible that Gabriel still wasn't stabilized and cannot be the second Kindred?
    8. If Harry needs Chameleon's serum to change the face of Sarah into his face, why can't he do it himself if he has supernatural powers and it is his demonic spirit to control Sarah and not AI Harry who just creates biological bodies of Sarah as vessels for Harry Osborn from Hell?
    9. What is the connection between Harry Osborn from Hell and AI Harry, because the first one wants revenge on his father (and maybe Peter and MJ), but it was the artificial Harry that created this great conspiracy which retconned Sins Past?
    10. Why Harry Osborn from Hell (Kindred using Sarah as his vessel) are so demanding to be called Kindred instead of his real name?
    11. What is the role of Mephisto in all of this?
    12. Why Mephisto and Dr Strange are watching this conflict in Paris and are we sure that their bet involves Peter's soul and not Harry cause the phase virtue of a hero (he died as a hero) against the corruption of soul (he got corrupted due to his father's satanic pact) suits Harry Osborn as well?
    13. Why Harry Lyman (the Harry with Carlie) was created at all and needed alive in the real world and why AI Harry and Mysterio planted false memories on his father about his regeneration from Goblin's formula instead of letting the whole world believe that Harry just died?
    14. Are we sure that Harry Lyman is a clone and if yes, what about his soul because he should have Harry's soul but we know that Harry soul is a demonic spirit who is possessing Sarah Stacy now?
    15. How many leaks from 4chan were confirmed by this issue and how many turned out to be false?
    Last edited by Dawidos; 09-08-2021 at 01:08 PM.

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dawidos View Post
    In short: convoluted but gives hope to have OMD adressed/fixed. But please - WE STILL DON'T KNOW ABOUT THE SINS OF PETER AND MJ!!!! I know a lot about the sinful past of Norman, Harry, AI Harry, Mysterio, Chameleon, Stacy Twins, but we don't know things regarding the main hero and his beloved woman! What is their role in this conspiracy?


    A few questions. Maybe you'll help me find the answers.

    SNIP
    I think one conspicuous moment in this issue that relates to your questions is that the person burying the failed bodies of Sarah and Gabriel is shrouded in both panels s/he is present. If it were Stromm, Mysterio, or Chameleon, they'd have just shown them (since they're already known conspirators). Is there a failed Harry clone (for a fourth Harry in the story - Maximum Haroldage, if you will) out there? Some other deep cut from the past to be revealed last second? Spidercide? I won't be shocked if that scene is not addressed again, but I also won't be shocked if that person is part of another twist.

    As to your specific questions:

    1. I believe it's heavily implied, but never confirmed, that the second Kindred body (the one with Peter) is a clone based on the Gabriel DNA. That says nothing about who is piloting the body

    2. No idea yet

    9 and 11. Almost certainly the same answer, or related somehow. Still up in the air, tho.

    13. The leaker was correct about the origins of the Stacy twins and their identity as Kindred, but thought Norman was still the creator (so +2, -1); Harry is a clone (+1) but said Norman cloned him (-1). The rest of the leaks are either unverifiable (e.g. did Brevoort make Spencer do something) or presumably things that may or may not happen in ASM 74/875. So that's three things right and two wrong (although if you want to be generous to the leaker, if you're not paying close attention to the story, you might think Norman was the computer presence and just be confused about what is happening).
    Blue text denotes sarcasm

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by HypnoHustler View Post
    Good issue. Still too early to say whether it contradicts those earlier 4Chan spoilers, but I think it’s pretty definitive that the OG Harry died. Impressed by how much continuity Spencer ropes in… Robot Parents, Sins Past, American Son, OMD… and except for AS, all pretty maligned stories. Impressive Spencer is trying to do this redemption tour of bad storylines. Hopefully he sticks the landing in ASM 74

    The 9/11 back-up was fine I guess. Nice to see JRJr drawing Spidey again.
    I agree with this.

    Seeing the internet spoilers leak on 4chan and CBR and so on kind of dampened the comics stuff but on the other hand people are really talking about this issue in a big way.

    My own feelings about this comic are slightly complex:

    spoilers:
    My theory for a while was that Spencer was gonna nullify BND-Harry into an impostor and we got that here. So I am personally gratified and that might color my somewhat positive impression because if you have a theory and the writer validates that, you feel like cutting it slack.

    Continuity-wise and mechanically, Spencer has done all he can to make it so that the Sins' Past story and its aftermath, the Harry Osborn resurrection business and so on, was all addressed and stitched together. It holds together at least based on all I read.

    My major concern is going forward the scope of abuse introduced by Spencer's retcon is pretty great. Spencer has essentially converted Mysterio into ASM's own "Doombot". In Fantastic Four comics, whenever a writer doesn't like how Doctor Doom was handled by a previous writer or in another title, they'd make it so that Doom was a "Doombot" and that the true Doom didn't get embarrassed or had his a-- handed to him. So how long before another writer comes in and uses Mysterio to make it so that whole stories are essentially Mysterio-induced hallucinations and illusions? The way Spencer used it here, you can have a writer come in and go, "Mary Jane didn't know Peter's identity since Parallel Lives that was a Mysterio-induced hallucination" and the real MJ's personality was altered. So it's essentially a potential Doombot timebomb left behind by Spencer.

    Because Spencer has made it so that Mary Jane's flashback in Sins' Past was a Mysterio Memory, and that Norman's memories in BND was also a Mysterio Memory. So if Mysterio can gaslight MJ and Norman for this section, how much more time before we have writers using him to remove and restructure and reshape whole parts of Spider-Man lore? I mean some things might be worth the trade...making it so that Peter's parents being spies were Mysterio Memories and some other stuff like the Peter/Betty maybe flirtation in Wolfman's run, also a Mysterio memory...that might be worth it to some extent but the scope of abuse is likewise pretty great.
    end of spoilers

    Let me say that I also found this bit of dialogue from the comic a dig at Dan Slott when Mephisto says, "Stay away from the slots".

    ASM #73 - Stay away from the Slots.jpg

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    I agree with this.

    Seeing the internet spoilers leak on 4chan and CBR and so on kind of dampened the comics stuff but on the other hand people are really talking about this issue in a big way.

    My own feelings about this comic are slightly complex:

    spoilers:
    My theory for a while was that Spencer was gonna nullify BND-Harry into an impostor and we got that here. So I am personally gratified and that might color my somewhat positive impression because if you have a theory and the writer validates that, you feel like cutting it slack.

    Continuity-wise and mechanically, Spencer has done all he can to make it so that the Sins' Past story and its aftermath, the Harry Osborn resurrection business and so on, was all addressed and stitched together. It holds together at least based on all I read.

    My major concern is going forward the scope of abuse introduced by Spencer's retcon is pretty great. Spencer has essentially converted Mysterio into ASM's own "Doombot". In Fantastic Four comics, whenever a writer doesn't like how Doctor Doom was handled by a previous writer or in another title, they'd make it so that Doom was a "Doombot" and that the true Doom didn't get embarrassed or had his a-- handed to him. So how long before another writer comes in and uses Mysterio to make it so that whole stories are essentially Mysterio-induced hallucinations and illusions? The way Spencer used it here, you can have a writer come in and go, "Mary Jane didn't know Peter's identity since Parallel Lives that was a Mysterio-induced hallucination" and the real MJ's personality was altered. So it's essentially a potential Doombot timebomb left behind by Spencer.

    Because Spencer has made it so that Mary Jane's flashback in Sins' Past was a Mysterio Memory, and that Norman's memories in BND was also a Mysterio Memory. So if Mysterio can gaslight MJ and Norman for this section, how much more time before we have writers using him to remove and restructure and reshape whole parts of Spider-Man lore? I mean some things might be worth the trade...making it so that Peter's parents being spies were Mysterio Memories and some other stuff like the Peter/Betty maybe flirtation in Wolfman's run, also a Mysterio memory...that might be worth it to some extent but the scope of abuse is likewise pretty great.
    end of spoilers

    Let me say that I also found this bit of dialogue from the comic a dig at Dan Slott when Mephisto says, "Stay away from the slots".

    ASM #73 - Stay away from the Slots.jpg
    I noticed that myself. A definite shot at Dan Slott. I am shocked editorial let that remain. I guarantee that if I am Slott I do not like it and have to wonder what my future @ Marvel is.

  9. #114
    Fantastic Member Dzika_Sowa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NC_Yankee View Post
    I noticed that myself. A definite shot at Dan Slott. I am shocked editorial let that remain. I guarantee that if I am Slott I do not like it and have to wonder what my future @ Marvel is.
    I admit, I also found it to be a jab at Slott. I wonder what he thinks of the arc tbh. I remember the guy being active even here, on the forums (and it wasn't always classy).

  10. #115
    Fantastic Member TheMaker1610's Avatar
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    2 things first:
    1- Bro, that was a ruthless jab at Slott hahahahah
    2- They REALLY got me with the "GWEN" reveal, I was almost ready to smash my PC to pieces lmao

    Man, this issue had a LOT to digest
    It basically retconned/explained every single big SM story from the last 2-3 decades I think?

    Peter's parents, Harry's death and return (in BND), Sins Past, American Son, and may other I may have missed I believe
    Damn man, I take my hat off for Spencer, in absolute respect and awe !

    I am at work right now, so I will come back later once my shift end, so I can start fangirl-screaming at will :P
    Last edited by TheMaker1610; 09-08-2021 at 02:57 PM.

  11. #116
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Like Revolutionary_Jack indicated in the spoiler box for his earlier post, I'm hoping spoilers:
    "It was Mysterio f***ing with their minds all along!" doesn't get used as a catchall retcon for the things certain people in the Marvel brass would prefer to be erased or modified from Spider-Man's continuity.
    end of spoilers
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dzika_Sowa View Post
    I admit, I also found it to be a jab at Slott. I wonder what he thinks of the arc tbh. I remember the guy being active even here, on the forums (and it wasn't always classy).
    Slott and to a lesser extent Jim Wacker posted here and most ( but to be fair not all) of the interactions were not positive. The thing he did that irked me was the Peter and Charlie Brown comparisons. He generally came off as a smart ass. It was actually sad because he could have brought more to the table then snarky comments that he knew would piss people off.

  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Like Revolutionary_Jack indicated in the spoiler box for his earlier post, I'm hoping spoilers:
    "It was Mysterio f***ing with their minds all along!" doesn't get used as a catchall retcon for the things certain people in the Marvel brass would prefer to be erased or modified from Spider-Man's continuity.
    end of spoilers
    Worst expectations first. That's how it's best to assume going forward.

    There's this thought experiment called "Roko's Basilisk" that was part of some online community that has since become somewhat disreputable and subject to jokes (Kieron Gillen's DIE recently referred to it). It's basically imagining an AI in the future who sends information back in time to its creators to construct it or it will kill them, which essentially creates difficulties in terms of free will and so on.

    The short of it is, it refers to an idea so dangerous that it can take over and swallow things and my feeling is that Spencer's mechanism with Mysterio could become this going forward.

    Of course, that's not a given or guarantee. The fact is Spencer has left behind a new toy in the box for writers to play with going forward - Break glass and pull out the fishbowl helmet. The way Spencer has used it is fair and builds on earlier stories and is motivated by a story idea I can get behind but that might not be the case in future. It's a bit like how Gerry Conway wrote the First Clone Saga with the best of intentions and tied it neatly but that didn't stop that from being misused later down the line.

  14. #119
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    I do think Revolutionary_Jack is not wrong, re
    spoilers:

    "Mysterio gaslighted you" being the new "Superboy punch" for any bad or problematic Spider-man story. If the Beyond team wants Ben to be free of the Clone Conspiracy arc, just say he was hypnotize by Mysterio! On the one hand, Spencer has created a self-destruct button, essentially for all continuity going forward. On the other hand, I'm not sure anything less than that would have gotten a coherent resolution to Sins Past.

    I don't think the solution is satisfying narratively at all - not only do the twins come out of nowhere within this giant near-100 issue story, but I don't think the explanation entirely jibes with their on-screen comments and actions during Sins Past/Remembered (this is also a fair criticism of, e.g. Green Lantern: Rebirth). I also find this story (so far) a bit vacuous in terms of future storytelling - the twins are a narrative dead end; I'm not sure there's a Harry Osborn story (AI, dead, or clone) out there that will really rival this in the short term, so he's off the table; Norman is just pathetic at this point; and hopefully we're absolutely done with Mephisto forever. This run will have ended (modulo whoever is burying the Stacy clones being someone) with fundamentally no new characters, no new seeds for new stories other than Ned/Betty and more dues ex Chameleon/Mysterio, and quite a bit of weird pacing choices. I weirdly still like this run, but I don't think it'll be one that a lot of people go back to re-read or recommend, even if it's revered for the outcome of the last two issues.
    end of spoilers
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  15. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Like Revolutionary_Jack indicated in the spoiler box for his earlier post, I'm hoping spoilers:
    "It was Mysterio f***ing with their minds all along!" doesn't get used as a catchall retcon for the things certain people in the Marvel brass would prefer to be erased or modified from Spider-Man's continuity.
    end of spoilers



    I feel like ever since his involvement in Old Man Logan or possibly even before that Mysterio's abilities have seen a serious power creep. He's always been good at what he does but the stuff that they're saying he's responsible for here and in OML universe is stuff i'd expect from folks like Emma Frost, Jean Grey, the mastermind family and Loki to name a few.

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