ASM 73 full

[Webhead]

If Peter and MJ's sin is that
spoilers:

they stopped searching for the baby and she was alive all along,

end of spoilers
that'd break the Internet.

I don't think they'll do it though.

[NC_Yankee]

I’m mostly in agreement with you, except I think they will make it that the marriage DID happen, but Peter and MJ will decide not to remarry as too much has happened in the years since the deal and their priorities have changed (OMD was almost 14 years ago, so that has to be at least two or three years in Marvel time). Maybe that’s still a cop out, but I think they should validate the marriage as a real thing.

One more point: Mephisto is going to be the “Big Bad” in The Avengers so maybe this will tie into OMD and even Beyond. As far as Peter being married is concerned, it will happen one day, but when will be determined by one thing and one thing only the next writer. Does he ( or she) want to write a married Spider-Man or not? If they do closer to ASM 900. If they do not: The subsequent writer closer to ASM 1000. The fact you are seeing AU’s with a married Peter or Felicia losing to MJ not once but in two different AU’s should be clues to not only will Peter be married but who he will be married to: Hint: A redhead not a blonde:

[Hypestyle]

From Peter David's Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man?

Yes, I suppose. I don't know how the story ended.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

If Peter and MJ's sin is that
spoilers:

they stopped searching for the baby and she was alive all along,

end of spoilers
that'd break the Internet.

I don't think they'll do it though.

Strangely enough, at this point I am kinda game for that.

[Spiderfan001]

I have a feeling they arent going to completely retcon OMD. I bet they are going to "fix" Peter Parker so that he has a completely "untainted" soul. MJ's part of the deal that she whispered to Mephisto was that she will remember everything, meaning she remembers being married and everything leading up to the deal, maybe they will make Peter remember everything too, this way Marvel can have them remember being married without having them ever being married.......you know like a have your cake and eating it too thing

Best case scenario, The real question is how are they gonna do this and then "kill" or coma him right after.

[Spiderfan001]

One more point: Mephisto is going to be the “Big Bad” in The Avengers so maybe this will tie into OMD and even Beyond. As far as Peter being married is concerned, it will happen one day, but when will be determined by one thing and one thing only the next writer. Does he ( or she) want to write a married Spider-Man or not? If they do closer to ASM 900. If they do not: The subsequent writer closer to ASM 1000. The fact you are seeing AU’s with a married Peter or Felicia losing to MJ not once but in two different AU’s should be clues to not only will Peter be married but who he will be married to: Hint: A redhead not a blonde:

Not gonna happen on 900, I mean Beyond f*cks any chances that had.I was hoping for a proposal at the end of the run and marriage at 900.Then kid at 1000.

[bob.schoonover]

I see a lot of this criticism, but I don't get it. First of all, a plot twist happens when it's not expected and clearly most people didn't expect Kindred to be the twins. Second, I personally think it was strongly hinted if you payed attention: we've seen European houses and references to "sins" for the last 5 or 6 issues. Ok, a lot of people thought that Sins Past was basically completely ignored by Marvel and so writers wouldn't touch it, but I think it was kinda simple to understand that the twins had something to do with this.

And the forshadowing w/ twins was always there.People mentioned 2 diff. jackets and Sins and Europe were mentioned multiple times.It's also a twist that no one saw coming yet fits in and makes sense.Pulling that this late in the game successfully is win.

Pulling these two out together - it's not a good plot twist if it's entirely out of nowhere - the plot isn't "twisted," it's just unconnected. References to "Europe" to suggest a story from 15 years ago is certainly a hint (Sins Past has been mentioned many times since Last Remains as a possibility for what this story was about because of the obvious references), but it's not a twist motivated by the plot as we've seen it so far. One of the reasons you can tell that this is the case is that we have multiple people in multiple threads asking for explainers for what the hell happened - the text didn't support the twist at all. The ASM part of Sinister War has been just introducing new elements to the story at the last second - Norman's devilish deal, AI Harry, Harry's cloning lab, the Mysterio gaslighting special, Harry's secret deal with Stromm that somehow didn't interfere with his work for Norman during the Clone Saga, etc. that are mostly unmoored from everything that came before (and, again, let's remember that we still don't have a concrete explanation for the demonic powers Kindred appears to have, so we have that revelation still to come, as well as Kindred's actual motivation, plus, you know, an actual plot resolution).

A plot twist usually re-contextualizes previous scenes in the actual plot (hence the name - the plot you've read is now twisted a bit by new information), and the elements of foreshadowing laid down beforehand provide a new element to a re-read. Last Remains is not better or different because it's actually the Stacy twin bodies being piloted by AI and/or Demon Harry. None of Kindred's (many) monologues gain new meaning with this new information (other than Norman's deal probably being the sin Harry is yelling about, but honestly, it's not like we needed to invent a new reason to think Norman was evil). There is not a single Kindred interaction from previous arcs that has new meaning because of the Stacy twins or AI Harry revelations (because we were already told Kindred was Harry in some form).

As to the actual foreshadowing you both note: Kindred wearing different outfits is suggestive of a pair of Kindreds, as Stillanerd pointed out, but the coloring in ASM 73 doesn't actually match that reality so that's a bit of a throw-away at the moment (also, only in comic books does changing your clothes constitute a clue). Most of the Sins Past references were entirely meta-references - panel composition or referencing the OOU title of a previous story from ages ago. That requires specific knowledge well outside the run and not in the sense that most comic books are tethered to knowledge of previous stories - no one needed an explainer for why Kingpin and Spider-man are enemies, for example, because that's common knowledge that requires only a basic understanding of who the people in the story are. As to "Europe" being a clue to the Stacy twins, sure, fine, but that's also where Norman hid after his first death, where he took Harry when he was 'resurrected,' etc., so it's suggestive without being particularly definitive (which is fine!).

So, no, this is a not well-executed plot twist. Being surprising alone does not constitute good storytelling, nor does creating a retcon that undoes a bad story make this one a good story. I enjoy the absurdity and the construction of Spencer's solution, but that's entirely separate from finding it narratively satisfying.

[Vortex85]

Pulling these two out together - it's not a good plot twist if it's entirely out of nowhere - the plot isn't "twisted," it's just unconnected. References to "Europe" to suggest a story from 15 years ago is certainly a hint (Sins Past has been mentioned many times since Last Remains as a possibility for what this story was about because of the obvious references), but it's not a twist motivated by the plot as we've seen it so far. One of the reasons you can tell that this is the case is that we have multiple people in multiple threads asking for explainers for what the hell happened - the text didn't support the twist at all. The ASM part of Sinister War has been just introducing new elements to the story at the last second - Norman's devilish deal, AI Harry, Harry's cloning lab, the Mysterio gaslighting special, Harry's secret deal with Stromm that somehow didn't interfere with his work for Norman during the Clone Saga, etc. that are mostly unmoored from everything that came before (and, again, let's remember that we still don't have a concrete explanation for the demonic powers Kindred appears to have, so we have that revelation still to come, as well as Kindred's actual motivation, plus, you know, an actual plot resolution).

A plot twist usually re-contextualizes previous scenes in the actual plot (hence the name - the plot you've read is now twisted a bit by new information), and the elements of foreshadowing laid down beforehand provide a new element to a re-read. Last Remains is not better or different because it's actually the Stacy twin bodies being piloted by AI and/or Demon Harry. None of Kindred's (many) monologues gain new meaning with this new information (other than Norman's deal probably being the sin Harry is yelling about, but honestly, it's not like we needed to invent a new reason to think Norman was evil). There is not a single Kindred interaction from previous arcs that has new meaning because of the Stacy twins or AI Harry revelations (because we were already told Kindred was Harry in some form).

As to the actual foreshadowing you both note: Kindred wearing different outfits is suggestive of a pair of Kindreds, as Stillanerd pointed out, but the coloring in ASM 73 doesn't actually match that reality so that's a bit of a throw-away at the moment (also, only in comic books does changing your clothes constitute a clue). Most of the Sins Past references were entirely meta-references - panel composition or referencing the OOU title of a previous story from ages ago. That requires specific knowledge well outside the run and not in the sense that most comic books are tethered to knowledge of previous stories - no one needed an explainer for why Kingpin and Spider-man are enemies, for example, because that's common knowledge that requires only a basic understanding of who the people in the story are. As to "Europe" being a clue to the Stacy twins, sure, fine, but that's also where Norman hid after his first death, where he took Harry when he was 'resurrected,' etc., so it's suggestive without being particularly definitive (which is fine!).

So, no, this is a not well-executed plot twist. Being surprising alone does not constitute good storytelling, nor does creating a retcon that undoes a bad story make this one a good story. I enjoy the absurdity and the construction of Spencer's solution, but that's entirely separate from finding it narratively satisfying.

I think Spencer knows this hence the original Last Remains deal. See his interview below:

"This reveal was structured very differently from any I’ve ever done before. I think I have a pretty well-earned reputation for last page twists. I know how to build the kinds of mysteries you can’t possibly guess your way through. This wasn’t that. There was a moment after the Absolute Carnage issues, where I really think we led the horse to water, when I contemplated a misdirect, something that would seem to eliminate Harry from suspicion. But ultimately, that felt like stunt work. I wanted to play fair here.

The reason I could do that is I knew the reveal was the beginning of the mystery, not the end. And that’s what I’ve been pleased to see in the response, people realizing that. It’s not that Harry wasn’t on the list of suspects. He was. It’s the can of worms he opens. How did he become this? When did the turn happen? What is he after? “Last Remains” is where all that starts to unravel and there are plenty of twists and turns to this part of the story that I feel confident no one will see coming."

And the end of his run:

"I had this on a smaller scale with my Cap run. I can remember the back half of Steve Rogers: Captain America, people saying they didn’t get it-- one issue he’s up in space, the next issue is about Baron Zemo and Cap’s barely in it, the next one is all about Maria Hill. And at the time people were like “it’s all over the place, they should get back to the main story”-- then Secret Empire #0 hits, and you see how everything we did there was part of the plan; it was all interconnected, and people seemed to love the payoff.

Well, this, structurally, is that times ten. Every story is a domino, and when we tip it over, I hope people will be impressed by the scale of it. And these stories really start to get bigger and take a firmer shape in 2021. And yes, alongside that, you have Kindred. “Last Remains” is the next big piece there.

I want to say thank you to everyone that’s been reading. I’ve said it a bunch of times, but this really is the book I’ve always dreamed of writing at Marvel, and to be at this point in it, to be starting to fulfill promises we’ve been making since the first issue, it’s exciting. Spidey fans are some of the most passionate in all of comics, and they’ve made me feel very welcome here. I’m enormously proud of the response we’ve gotten, especially from the lifelong, hardcore readers like me. I promise I’m doing everything I can to do right by them, and by the character."

All this was said before the apparent information about Editorial screwing with Spencer's plans. Spencer has been quiet with NO INTERVIEWS or appearances after this. I really do wonder if the rumors about the end of his run being changed on him and him having to pull out Sins Past retcon last minute is true.

[Vortex85]

Three things I can thing of for what may have happened:

1) Editorial said Spencer couldn't do something in the book and he had to change it and that set him on a course to look for another job and end his run in an alternate way
2) Editorial shortened his time on the book with other plans so he had to finish his story in less time and leave things out which hurt the pacing at the end
3) Spencer just found another opportunity on his own and had to shorten his run to move on which leads to the end being rushed

[Spiderfan001]

Pulling these two out together - it's not a good plot twist if it's entirely out of nowhere - the plot isn't "twisted," it's just unconnected. References to "Europe" to suggest a story from 15 years ago is certainly a hint (Sins Past has been mentioned many times since Last Remains as a possibility for what this story was about because of the obvious references), but it's not a twist motivated by the plot as we've seen it so far. One of the reasons you can tell that this is the case is that we have multiple people in multiple threads asking for explainers for what the hell happened - the text didn't support the twist at all. The ASM part of Sinister War has been just introducing new elements to the story at the last second - Norman's devilish deal, AI Harry, Harry's cloning lab, the Mysterio gaslighting special, Harry's secret deal with Stromm that somehow didn't interfere with his work for Norman during the Clone Saga, etc. that are mostly unmoored from everything that came before (and, again, let's remember that we still don't have a concrete explanation for the demonic powers Kindred appears to have, so we have that revelation still to come, as well as Kindred's actual motivation, plus, you know, an actual plot resolution).

A plot twist usually re-contextualizes previous scenes in the actual plot (hence the name - the plot you've read is now twisted a bit by new information), and the elements of foreshadowing laid down beforehand provide a new element to a re-read. Last Remains is not better or different because it's actually the Stacy twin bodies being piloted by AI and/or Demon Harry. None of Kindred's (many) monologues gain new meaning with this new information (other than Norman's deal probably being the sin Harry is yelling about, but honestly, it's not like we needed to invent a new reason to think Norman was evil). There is not a single Kindred interaction from previous arcs that has new meaning because of the Stacy twins or AI Harry revelations (because we were already told Kindred was Harry in some form).

As to the actual foreshadowing you both note: Kindred wearing different outfits is suggestive of a pair of Kindreds, as Stillanerd pointed out, but the coloring in ASM 73 doesn't actually match that reality so that's a bit of a throw-away at the moment (also, only in comic books does changing your clothes constitute a clue). Most of the Sins Past references were entirely meta-references - panel composition or referencing the OOU title of a previous story from ages ago. That requires specific knowledge well outside the run and not in the sense that most comic books are tethered to knowledge of previous stories - no one needed an explainer for why Kingpin and Spider-man are enemies, for example, because that's common knowledge that requires only a basic understanding of who the people in the story are. As to "Europe" being a clue to the Stacy twins, sure, fine, but that's also where Norman hid after his first death, where he took Harry when he was 'resurrected,' etc., so it's suggestive without being particularly definitive (which is fine!).

So, no, this is a not well-executed plot twist. Being surprising alone does not constitute good storytelling, nor does creating a retcon that undoes a bad story make this one a good story. I enjoy the absurdity and the construction of Spencer's solution, but that's entirely separate from finding it narratively satisfying.

1)People are confused because they haven't read Sins past or stories this uses.People even say that here.

2)There is foreshadowing
a)Europe
b)The mansion invite Norman got in the will of Mendell, who we know was helping Harry
c)Sins being mentioned multiple times, specially Normans
d)The foreshadowing w/Spider-gwen
e)The 2 Kindreds

It's subtle, most twists you can see before they are revealed in current comics.Spencer isn't spoon feeding us like Tom King who after revealing most of his run was Bane's master plan literally has it explained in every issue after taking up a lot of space.

The Retcon itself is one of the most requested things, and it's integration is organic in the plot.Using the twins bodies as vessels is a great move, and we will learn more about motives and means in the finale.

We are finally at the end, I don't get why everyone's a downer now of all times.

[Spiderfan001]

I think Spencer knows this hence the original Last Remains deal. See his interview below:



And the end of his run:



All this was said before the apparent information about Editorial screwing with Spencer's plans. Spencer has been quiet with NO INTERVIEWS or appearances after this. I really do wonder if the rumors about the end of his run being changed on him and him having to pull out Sins Past retcon last minute is true.

Yeah, see the guy knows what he's doing.

And I think he would have retconned Sins Past either way, it fits perfectly in the story we have seen.
The real screwing would be if he was forced to include Twins and had a completely diff. idea.

[Spiderfan001]

Three things I can thing of for what may have happened:

1) Editorial said Spencer couldn't do something in the book and he had to change it and that set him on a course to look for another job and end his run in an alternate way
2) Editorial shortened his time on the book with other plans so he had to finish his story in less time and leave things out which hurt the pacing at the end
3) Spencer just found another opportunity on his own and had to shorten his run to move on which leads to the end being rushed

I think he rushed Chameleon and Kingpin stuff not just w/ pace and content but 3+One big one shot issues.And then SW as well.
Hopefully that was the rushed stuff and this finale is what he had planned.

[bob.schoonover]

I think Spencer knows this hence the original Last Remains deal. See his interview below:



And the end of his run:



All this was said before the apparent information about Editorial screwing with Spencer's plans. Spencer has been quiet with NO INTERVIEWS or appearances after this. I really do wonder if the rumors about the end of his run being changed on him and him having to pull out Sins Past retcon last minute is true.

I think Spencer's handling of the Harry reveal in ASM 50 was quite well done (and the opposite of the Stacy twins one). All of Kindred's monologues got new context, all of them played fair, Norman's involvement made sense. I'm perfectly willing to cut Spencer slack because of editorial interference, but that doesn't make me like the story structure any better.

[Spiderfan001]

I think Spencer's handling of the Harry reveal in ASM 50 was quite well done (and the opposite of the Stacy twins one). All of Kindred's monologues got new context, all of them played fair, Norman's involvement made sense. I'm perfectly willing to cut Spencer slack because of editorial interference, but that doesn't make me like the story structure any better.

You do realize it's still harry right, the twins are just vessels.And the original role they play is messing w/ Norman, using his ego against him and now as vessels for Kindred.
Considering he didn't come up w/ them and had to use them for either retcon and the speculated Editorial interference it's a genius move.
It doesn't take away from anything, only adds to it using existing story while retconning the worst parts of it in a manner that doesn't disagree w/ continuity.

[IamnotJudasTraveller]

3) Spencer just found another opportunity on his own and had to shorten his run to move on which leads to the end being rushed

According to Perch (pretty solid youtuber, doesn't do the outrage gimmick and whatnot) Spencer left because Substack offered him a better deal. And he tends to source his stuff all the time, so I don't think this is backstage hubbahub and Spencer just said as much himself.

Right now all the editorial interference stuff comes from that 4chan "leak" that as it turns out, were the predictions of a poster spiced with stuff about Brevoort trying to change the story (I know he still has a lot of clout, but he's not in most Spider-Man comics' credits recently).

The biggest thing that COULD point to editorial "interference" is the fact Ben was cut out of Last Remains, but we don't know much of anything to elaborate concretely. Maybe the arc was supposed to be longer and he'd have a larger role which would increase issue count (how do you want to make a story about Norman Osborn deserving to be saved or not and not including a person he LITERALLY killed, but shove a bunch of people with second hand knowledge of this Norman?), but since they said Substack began talking to Spencer exactly during the hiatus when Covid first broke out, they had to shorten it and trim stuff since Spencer was already looking at something else (before Sinister War was formally announced he was already saying he was at "the home stretch").