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  1. #226
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dzika_Sowa View Post
    Is there any particular reason for Mephisto to want Harry's soul, or Norman to become Green Goblin? I've heard, that Mephisto is becoming an adversary for the Avengers of something? Maybe he wanted to "recruit" people in power, like Norman / Goblin but it accidentally created Norman's war with Spider-Man, so the whole OMD and marriage was just a not so obvious way to mess with Peter...
    Mephisto probably just wanted to see what Norman was willing to trade in for the power and wealth he sought in life, and getting Harry's soul was the somewhat inevitable byproduct of that when factoring in how ultimately selfish and egocentric Norman was. As for Mephisto becoming the ultimate adversary of the Avengers, going by Jason Aaron's run with the Avengers 1,000,000 BC, the Avengers have in one form or another over the course of MU history risen up to oppose Mephisto's machinations to gain total dominion over Earth, so Mephisto, being unable to directly take on the Avengers for some reason, manipulated various people and factions across that same history into becoming his pawns and agents to counter the Avengers. In that same vein, it's been theorized by some that Norman rising to power the way he did in Dark Reign and using it to undermine the Avengers might well have been another salvo in Mephisto's secret war on the Avengers, and somewhat similarly, maybe the whole point of OMD is to corrupt Spider-Man, with his own unique position within the superhero community, into Mephisto's greatest pawn against the Avengers.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  2. #227
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    Someone's going to have to tie Demogoblin into this Mephisto/Goblin/Spider-man tapestry.
    Blue text denotes sarcasm

  3. #228
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob.schoonover View Post
    Someone's going to have to tie Demogoblin into this Mephisto/Goblin/Spider-man tapestry.
    Relatively simple. Demogoblin was what happened when Jason Macendale made a literal devil's bargain during Inferno for actual power and the demon he tried to bargain with intertwined his soul with another demon's instead. That demon eventually separated from Macendale and struck out on its own as the Demogoblin. Could just say N'astirh, the aforementioned demon Macendale tried to bargain with, was one of Mephisto's rivals.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  4. #229
    Mechanically Insane shadow panther's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob.schoonover View Post
    Someone's going to have to tie Demogoblin into this Mephisto/Goblin/Spider-man tapestry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Relatively simple. Demogoblin was what happened when Jason Macendale made a literal devil's bargain during Inferno for actual power and the demon he tried to bargain with intertwined his soul with another demon's instead. That demon eventually separated from Macendale and struck out on its own as the Demogoblin. Could just say N'astirh, the aforementioned demon Macendale tried to bargain with, was one of Mephisto's rivals.
    Demogoblin came from Limbo, A different Hell than Mephisto's Hell

  5. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadow panther View Post
    Demogoblin came from Limbo, A different Hell than Mephisto's Hell
    True enough.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  6. #231

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    I am SO confused as to what (original) Harry's endgame was here.

    1- Make clones using Norman's (right?) DNA, and Gwen's, somehow, JUST IN CASE Norman came back
    2- .....?
    3 - ....................????
    Last edited by PanicPixieDreamGirl; 09-11-2021 at 10:30 PM.

  7. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by PanicPixieDreamGirl View Post
    I am SO confused as to what (original) Harry's endgame was here.

    1- Make clones using Norman's (right?) DNA, and Gwen's, somehow, JUST IN CASE Norman came back
    2- .....?
    3 - ....................????
    Is there anything in the issue saying that wasn’t started by the AI Harry after it learned Norman was back? That would make the most sense to me

  8. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krakoa View Post
    Is there anything in the issue saying that wasn’t started by the AI Harry after it learned Norman was back? That would make the most sense to me
    Harry in costume is shown with Stromm in front of the cloning vats. And Norman wasn't known to be alive by most people when Harry died, so Harry had to be alive when his clone (BND Harry) was created
    Blue text denotes sarcasm

  9. #234
    I'm at least a C-Lister! exile001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PanicPixieDreamGirl View Post
    I am SO confused as to what (original) Harry's endgame was here.

    1- Make clones using Norman's (right?) DNA, and Gwen's, somehow, JUST IN CASE Norman came back
    2- .....?
    3 - ....................????
    The beauty of J M Dematteis' Harry is that he has a complete mess mentally, being torn between who he believed his father as Norman wanted him to be, who his father as the Goblin wanted him to be, who Peter (his friend) wanted him to be, who Peter as Spider-man wanted him to be and lastly who he himself wanted to be. And he couldn't reconcile Peter and Spider-man or Norman and the Gobin as the same people even though he knew the four were actually two*.

    It is a work of genius that in so few issues Dematteis tied in everything Harry had been and everything he knew future writers would view Harry as. Under JMD, Harry started as a heroic Green Goblin with Peter trying to dissuade him for Harry's own safety AND to protect himself (Harry had amnesia of Pete's identity). Everything spiraled from there.

    Kurt Busiek is a master of continuity and picking up threads even the original writer may not have intended but added so much ion the one Legacy of Evil one-shot, which Spencer is using.

    Harry's endgame doesn't have to make sense as a linear attack as his entire basis is these conflicting versions of himself working themselves out while aimed at Peter (but actually at himself as Peter is ultimately not at fault). He may not have even had an endgame other than his mania trying to show Peter who Harry truly is, the irony being that through JDM's run and Spencer's he has done so through showing MJ (in his mind his true friend) who he is. There are a lot of layers here.

    Spencer has one (giant) issue left, I'm sure it'll be a doozy.

    *It's one of the things I dislike about Norman since the return. In early ASM it is explicitly stated by harry that Norman was a tough father but Norman and Harry were the best of friends until recently (implying the serum that turned Norman into the Goblin/created the split personality). I like that it was the serum that corrupted Norman (making him more tragic and frankly scary) rather than he was always evil but the serum just made him wear a dumb outfit.
    Last edited by exile001; 09-12-2021 at 01:22 PM.
    Just. Be. Nice.

  10. #235

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    This bit of the issue really confuses me:

    Image1.jpg

    "Don't you recognize them" implies that there are another pair of fetus clones in the tanks Norman is looking at, but in the panels that follow there are not?

  11. #236
    Incredible Member xpyred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PanicPixieDreamGirl View Post
    This bit of the issue really confuses me:

    Image1.jpg

    "Don't you recognize them" implies that there are another pair of fetus clones in the tanks Norman is looking at, but in the panels that follow there are not?
    Because this whole issue is just a thrown together convoluted mess. For example; people here keep saying there are two Kindred’s based on different jackets. Aside from the jackets, where is it implied or stated that we have two kindred’s? Besides, the different coats and colors thing can be attributed to the fact that this entire run has been plagued with multiple artists and often times the art has been atrocious

  12. #237
    Amazing Member Krec99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xpyred View Post
    Because this whole issue is just a thrown together convoluted mess. For example; people here keep saying there are two Kindred’s based on different jackets. Aside from the jackets, where is it implied or stated that we have two kindred’s? Besides, the different coats and colors thing can be attributed to the fact that this entire run has been plagued with multiple artists and often times the art has been atrocious

    There are two kindreds I saw the art it was from AsM 875

  13. #238
    Mighty Member Chubistian's Avatar
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    I don't know if it was said before, but having two Kindred can be the way Nick Spencer pays homage to the Hobgoblin mystery back in the 80s, and how there was more than one person under the mask
    "The Batman is Gotham City. I will watch him. Study him. And when I know him and why he does not kill, I will know this city. And then Gotham will be MINE!"-BANE

    "We're monsters, buddy. Plain and simple. I don't dress it up with fancy names like mutant or post-human; men were born crueler than Apes and we were born crueler than men. It's just the natural order of things"-ULTIMATE SABRETOOTH

  14. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by xpyred View Post
    Because this whole issue is just a thrown together convoluted mess. For example; people here keep saying there are two Kindred’s based on different jackets. Aside from the jackets, where is it implied or stated that we have two kindred’s? Besides, the different coats and colors thing can be attributed to the fact that this entire run has been plagued with multiple artists and often times the art has been atrocious
    We saw 2 Kindred's in the issue.One w/ Peter when he entered the mirror and one w/ MJ.Same artists, same issue, same time, 2 Kindreds.They are 2 bodies for Kindreds.

    It's convoluted but it all does add up, saying it doesn't is just wrong.It's also been explained here multiple times.

  15. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chubistian View Post
    I don't know if it was said before, but having two Kindred can be the way Nick Spencer pays homage to the Hobgoblin mystery back in the 80s, and how there was more than one person under the mask
    Yeah, I guess that's another layer.They are just vessels though, all I want to know is how the supernatural element came to be w/ them.

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