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  1. #241
    Fantastic Member Dzika_Sowa's Avatar
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    If the maggots are just the bodies decaying, ant it was a red herring... That would be stupid.

  2. #242
    Extraordinary Member DragonPiece's Avatar
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    Honestly I wonder how much spencer planned to end his run like this, because I have a hard time believing this issue was part of his master plan. I have a hard time beleiving marvel editors even were ok with this.

  3. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonPiece View Post
    Honestly I wonder how much spencer planned to end his run like this, because I have a hard time believing this issue was part of his master plan. I have a hard time beleiving marvel editors even were ok with this.
    It only goes one way though.Either Spencer planned this issue this way or marvel Editors interfered.They will never do an issue which Editors are not okay w/ when the writer doesn't want that either.

  4. #244
    Fantastic Member Dzika_Sowa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DragonPiece View Post
    Honestly I wonder how much spencer planned to end his run like this, because I have a hard time believing this issue was part of his master plan. I have a hard time beleiving marvel editors even were ok with this.
    People say, there are connections showing the Twins were Kindred. Interview with Spencer also points clues, that the story was designed like this, but *puts a tinfoil hat* I don't believe this is an intended ending. We know editorial was meddling with the story, for example - Ben was supposed to help Peter in Ravencroft against Sin Eater.

  5. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dzika_Sowa View Post
    People say, there are connections showing the Twins were Kindred. Interview with Spencer also points clues, that the story was designed like this, but *puts a tinfoil hat* I don't believe this is an intended ending. We know editorial was meddling with the story, for example - Ben was supposed to help Peter in Ravencroft against Sin Eater.
    It’s… weird being against Ben having a relatively small supporting role in one story-arc, but then being okay with him taking over all the books for 9 months for Beyond. Breevort is still editor, so if he had a problem with Ben, why would he approve something like Beyond? But if Ben wasn’t pulled because someone had a personal problem with him, why was his role in LR nixed? Nothing makes sense.

  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by HypnoHustler View Post
    It’s… weird being against Ben having a relatively small supporting role in one story-arc, but then being okay with him taking over all the books for 9 months for Beyond. Breevort is still editor, so if he had a problem with Ben, why would he approve something like Beyond? But if Ben wasn’t pulled because someone had a personal problem with him, why was his role in LR nixed? Nothing makes sense.
    We'll never know.
    Best guess is that Ben took too much pages in that arc, or they didn't have time to write him in?No concrete guess
    Beyond is easier to explain, they needed a last minute idea that they can execute.Ben works for that purpose, while also playing on nostalgia bringing in more fans.If it sells well, they can also go for another Scarlet Spider type spin off from there.

  7. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dzika_Sowa View Post
    People say, there are connections showing the Twins were Kindred. Interview with Spencer also points clues, that the story was designed like this, but *puts a tinfoil hat* I don't believe this is an intended ending. We know editorial was meddling with the story, for example - Ben was supposed to help Peter in Ravencroft against Sin Eater.
    I think, regardless of what editorial interference there may have been, or hastening of the story because Spencer might be leaving earlier than he planned, that we're still seeing mostly Spencer's original concept. Norman's deal, clone Harry, and a twins retcon all seem like necessary parts of the story from early on when you look at the story construction. We'll see how it ends, but I could see AI Harry being a last minute addition (although he seems pretty necessary to the timeline of the other plots), and it wouldn't shock me if the Mephisto plot has been so dragged out because of editorial dithering on what they'll allow Spencer to do to The Deal.
    Blue text denotes sarcasm

  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob.schoonover View Post
    I think, regardless of what editorial interference there may have been, or hastening of the story because Spencer might be leaving earlier than he planned, that we're still seeing mostly Spencer's original concept. Norman's deal, clone Harry, and a twins retcon all seem like necessary parts of the story from early on when you look at the story construction. We'll see how it ends, but I could see AI Harry being a last minute addition (although he seems pretty necessary to the timeline of the other plots), and it wouldn't shock me if the Mephisto plot has been so dragged out because of editorial dithering on what they'll allow Spencer to do to The Deal.
    Everything upto 50-55 felt Spencer to me.A bit less after that, specially in this I can see if there was editorial stuff.

    Nonetheless the last issue is one of the most I've ever looked forward to ever, a shame we know Peter and MJ make it but still.There are still so many ways it can go and I can't wait to see what happens.

  9. #249
    Fantastic Member Dzika_Sowa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HypnoHustler View Post
    It’s… weird being against Ben having a relatively small supporting role in one story-arc, but then being okay with him taking over all the books for 9 months for Beyond. Breevort is still editor, so if he had a problem with Ben, why would he approve something like Beyond? But if Ben wasn’t pulled because someone had a personal problem with him, why was his role in LR nixed? Nothing makes sense.
    *Tinfoil hat still on*
    I believe that tinkering with Spencer's plot happened around the time he planned the story in Ravencroft.
    In other thread, poster showed page with Order of the web with Scarlet Spider, so we know initial art was drawn. We also have the panels in printed books, showing both Ben and Otto in his Superior body, when Kindred talks about his plans.

    What I think happened, is Spencer had a talk with his superiors about him leaving, and they decided to use Ben for a filler story (no offense to Ben fans) until they decide what to do with Peter. Because of that, Ben got removed from current plot, to be featured in Beyond.

    So, either way - Spencer's vision isn't the original. We don't know what could have happened to Ben, what stories Spencer wanted to tell after Kindred, and how "Kindred Saga" could have ended if he wasn't leaving.
    Last edited by Dzika_Sowa; 09-13-2021 at 09:02 AM.

  10. #250
    Wig Over The Hoodie Style IamnotJudasTraveller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HypnoHustler View Post
    It’s… weird being against Ben having a relatively small supporting role in one story-arc, but then being okay with him taking over all the books for 9 months for Beyond. Breevort is still editor, so if he had a problem with Ben, why would he approve something like Beyond? But if Ben wasn’t pulled because someone had a personal problem with him, why was his role in LR nixed? Nothing makes sense.
    My guess (and that's all it is) still is that if Ben was used the arc would've been longer, and they decided to nix it altogether for space. I think the timeline matches up that this issue would be just in preproduction when Marvel halted things due to Covid, and Spencer said Substack approached him in that same timeframe.

    I also don't believe it was an editorial veto that someone didn't like Ben, because they literally acknowledged he SHOULD have been there in the letter sections and even said 'he almost was' - I mean, seriously, how can you do a story talking about Norman's sins and whether he deserves to live or not without the Spider he literally killed?

    While we'll likely never know for sure, some other people already guessed maybe it was going to be a springboard for a Order of the Web spin-off (that'd probably last the usual 5 issues or something) with Ben in the lead, and the Covid stuff hampered the amount of titles Marvel would put out. That as it may, I think leaving him out of the arc was a terrible decision - he could've kept a minor role like the other Spiders, but you literally wouldn't want to skip on his take on the Norman situation, let alone Kindred killing Peter multiple times and Peter becoming a little unhinged when he remembers each death. The story writes itself!

  11. #251
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IamnotJudasTraveller View Post
    My guess (and that's all it is) still is that if Ben was used the arc would've been longer, and they decided to nix it altogether for space. I think the timeline matches up that this issue would be just in preproduction when Marvel halted things due to Covid, and Spencer said Substack approached him in that same timeframe.

    I also don't believe it was an editorial veto that someone didn't like Ben, because they literally acknowledged he SHOULD have been there in the letter sections and even said 'he almost was' - I mean, seriously, how can you do a story talking about Norman's sins and whether he deserves to live or not without the Spider he literally killed?

    While we'll likely never know for sure, some other people already guessed maybe it was going to be a springboard for a Order of the Web spin-off (that'd probably last the usual 5 issues or something) with Ben in the lead, and the Covid stuff hampered the amount of titles Marvel would put out. That as it may, I think leaving him out of the arc was a terrible decision - he could've kept a minor role like the other Spiders, but you literally wouldn't want to skip on his take on the Norman situation, let alone Kindred killing Peter multiple times and Peter becoming a little unhinged when he remembers each death. The story writes itself!
    I think Beyond likely being a placeholder arc until the new main team probably had something to do with it too.

  12. #252
    Fantastic Member Dzika_Sowa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IamnotJudasTraveller View Post
    My guess (and that's all it is) still is that if Ben was used the arc would've been longer, and they decided to nix it altogether for space. I think the timeline matches up that this issue would be just in preproduction when Marvel halted things due to Covid, and Spencer said Substack approached him in that same timeframe.

    I also don't believe it was an editorial veto that someone didn't like Ben, because they literally acknowledged he SHOULD have been there in the letter sections and even said 'he almost was' - I mean, seriously, how can you do a story talking about Norman's sins and whether he deserves to live or not without the Spider he literally killed?

    While we'll likely never know for sure, some other people already guessed maybe it was going to be a springboard for a Order of the Web spin-off (that'd probably last the usual 5 issues or something) with Ben in the lead, and the Covid stuff hampered the amount of titles Marvel would put out. That as it may, I think leaving him out of the arc was a terrible decision - he could've kept a minor role like the other Spiders, but you literally wouldn't want to skip on his take on the Norman situation, let alone Kindred killing Peter multiple times and Peter becoming a little unhinged when he remembers each death. The story writes itself!
    That's sound like a very probable plot. Also, if Spidey got badly hurt in the finale of this arc, it would be natural for Ben, to take up the mantle.

    We can only hope, that Spencer will talk about his plans, and if he had to change anything.

    Edit: it just occurred to me, that if Spencer really is such a big fan of Spidey, and he is referencing a lot from the 90's... He didn't really touch anything Ben related. Maybe Beyond was initially his pitch? Do we know who had this idea?
    Last edited by Dzika_Sowa; 09-13-2021 at 09:19 AM.

  13. #253
    Incredible Member Webhead's Avatar
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    It's getting to be a long wait till #74.

  14. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think Beyond likely being a placeholder arc until the new main team probably had something to do with it too.
    We'll see how ASM 74 ends (and even then, we won't know*), but it wouldn't shock me if Ben taking over was part of Spencer's original plan - he was planning to do his version of "Ben takes over" and editorial solicited pitches after Spencer announced he was leaving for different "Ben takes over" story - still technically a placeholder but a different flavor

    *Spencer changing his ending slightly to match up with what comes next is pretty likely
    Blue text denotes sarcasm

  15. #255

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    I have SO many questions about this panel.

    Image41.jpg

    1) Who's that on the screen, AI Norman or AI Harry?

    2) Who's that digging the graves?

    3) ....who on earth did the day-to-day work of raising the twins? I mean, they're still babies right?! So after they came out of the test tubes, who was feeding them, changing them and so on?!

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