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  1. #61
    Extraordinary Member superduperman's Avatar
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    I don't think we'll ever revisit the KC Earth again. At least not in terms of sequels or anything like that. Ross is on the outs with DC and Waid doesn't seem to care much for the story for whatever reason. Neither one seemed able to agree on how it should end and apparently there was a lot of micro-managing by DC at the time about what could and couldn't be included in it. It had to reflect the post-Crisis continuity at the time. So no Barry, no Hal, and it had to include that stupid ponytail.
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  2. #62
    Ultimate Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    I don't think we'll ever revisit the KC Earth again. At least not in terms of sequels or anything like that. Ross is on the outs with DC and Waid doesn't seem to care much for the story for whatever reason. Neither one seemed able to agree on how it should end and apparently there was a lot of micro-managing by DC at the time about what could and couldn't be included in it. It had to reflect the post-Crisis continuity at the time. So no Barry, no Hal, and it had to include that stupid ponytail.
    Least he cut it off pretty quickly , but that was the real point where it all started to go wrong, that ponytail lol. But yes I don’t believe Waid will connect this project to KC. We won’t know if it’s connected to Birthright either until we get an official announcement.
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  3. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Waid and Hitch is an...interesting combination.
    They've worked together in the past on JLA and an oversized JLA graphic novel. The biggest problem was Hitch's lateness some of him doing a 80-100 page oversized graphic novel then doing a month title.

  4. #64
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vic Vega View Post
    I personally am more likely to be interested if the Legion is involved.

    If Waid chooses to do the project as a sequel to Birthright, we are just looking at Superman: Year 2 and I don't see much promise there.
    Really? I see a lot of promise in a Year 2 type story for Superman. All his stories are either origin stories or superhero veteran, his non-origin early years are ripe for storytelling.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    I don't think we'll ever revisit the KC Earth again. At least not in terms of sequels or anything like that. Ross is on the outs with DC and Waid doesn't seem to care much for the story for whatever reason. Neither one seemed able to agree on how it should end and apparently there was a lot of micro-managing by DC at the time about what could and couldn't be included in it. It had to reflect the post-Crisis continuity at the time. So no Barry, no Hal, and it had to include that stupid ponytail.
    Waid talked about this openly years ago when he was the guest teacher for an online woman in comics course and he’s revisited it again on Twitter.

    He regrets pairing Superman and Wonder Woman because too many misogynists used it as an invitation to assume it’s better to get rid of Lois.

    Waid isn’t pro marriage but he is pro Lois and has gone on record that Superman will only ever marry Lois and will never remarry if she dies.

    His dislike for KC has a lot to do with how it impacted Lois long term and he took a lot of heat for the poor way he handled Diana as well. He took heat for it in the class as I recall and he fully owned it.

    I don’t think he would be as anti KC now if the Superwonder thing wasn’t a part of it.
    Last edited by Nelliebly; 09-13-2021 at 04:12 PM.

  6. #66
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    Yeah, FYI guys Mark Waid doesn’t consider Kingdom Come a “happy ending” and that’s part of the problem with the way people view it bc he considers it a misunderstanding of what he was saying.

    He wrote it as a cautionary tale and too many people took it as a how to guide.

    The Ross ending isn’t his distinctly because he doesn’t like the idea of Superman and Wonder Woman together like that. Waid’s canon is that Clark will never remarry after Lois’s death. The end of the original KC in the restaurant feels tacked on because it was.

    This is fairly well known. He actively used to correct Superwonder Fans on Twitter during the new 52. He was not a fan. I didn’t realize so many people didn’t know this?

    I think people confuse him preferring a non married Superman to thinking he thinks it’s ok for Superman to be tied to someone else. He doesn’t. It’s still Lois for Waid. Marriage isn’t his preference but if Clark is going to be married he believes it’s only ever to Lois and no one else ever.
    Last edited by Nelliebly; 09-13-2021 at 04:16 PM.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nelliebly View Post
    Yeah, FYI guys Mark Waid doesn¬ít consider Kingdom Come a ¬ďhappy ending¬Ē and that¬ís part of the problem with the way people view it bc he considers it a misunderstanding of what he was saying.

    He wrote it as a cautionary tale and too many people took it as a how to guide.

    The Ross ending isn’t his distinctly because he doesn’t like the idea of Superman and Wonder Woman together like that. Waid’s canon is that Clark will never remarry after Lois’s death. The end of the original KC in the restaurant feels tacked on because it was.

    This is fairly well known. He actively used to correct Superwonder Fans on Twitter during the new 52. He was not a fan. I didn’t realize so many people didn’t know this?

    I think people confuse him preferring a non married Superman to thinking he thinks it’s ok for Superman to be tied to someone else. He doesn’t. It’s still Lois for Waid. Marriage isn’t his preference but if Clark is going to be married he believes it’s only ever to Lois and no one else ever.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nelliebly View Post
    Waid talked about this openly years ago when he was the guest teacher for an online woman in comics course and he’s revisited it again on Twitter.

    He regrets pairing Superman and Wonder Woman because too many misogynists used it as an invitation to assume it’s better to get rid of Lois.

    Waid isn’t pro marriage but he is pro Lois and has gone on record that Superman will only ever marry Lois and will never remarry if she dies.

    His dislike for KC has a lot to do with how it impacted Lois long term and he took a lot of heat for the poor way he handled Diana as well. He took heat for it in the class as I recall and he fully owned it.

    I don’t think he would be as anti KC now if the Superwonder thing wasn’t a part of it.
    I kind of have to disagree with Waid a lot here. Killing off Lois in Kingdom come hasn't really hurt the character in the long run as fans still wanted Lois back even during the New 52 and they did bring her back. We didn't even see her death in the book so you can't say is as bad as Barbra Gordon being cripple or Alexandra DeWitt corpse partially seen in the fridge, it just not massively insulting as say Injustice.

    Also KC is an alternate universe and to say that Superman should only be with Lois or no one else not even in different universe is creatively limiting and falls a little to close to the weird Man of steel notion that superman only cares only about human race because of Lois. Like imagine if every single batman stories the only robin he could have is only Tim Drake no dick no Damian no Jason just Tim or the only green lantern that can be chosen is Kyle Rayner. Lois is superman main love interest in main continuity and nothing would really change that among fans but to say superman should only be with Lois in every story is ridiculous. Multiple stories (some canon ones) say that superman would live for thousands of years and out live all the non-immortal justice leaguers but tie down to one normal mortal woman?

    KC is a "happy Ending" don't know what Waid is talk about that. Superman regains his humanity and overcome his grief and loss, The human and metahuman begin to rebuild together, batman understood his faults of being a self-righteous Machiavellian and respark a connection with his family, Diana is accepted back by her people. The Justice Society follow up to KC was great little montage of seeing the future of Superman from the death of Bruce Wayne to Kamandi second apocalypse to the legion of superheroes. Seeing superman alone just because you didn't like the idea of a ship contradicts the main message of Kingdom Come of unity and understanding and the entire arc of superman over coming his grief and being more attach to humanity

    Im sorry everyone is entitle to their opinion but I have to massively disagree

  8. #68
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Really? I see a lot of promise in a Year 2 type story for Superman. All his stories are either origin stories or superhero veteran, his non-origin early years are ripe for storytelling.
    Yeah, I see plenty of promise too. Young Superman adventure that's not an origin. Its what I've been looking for for a while.
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  9. #69
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    As far as i am concerned superman can date a brick.This thread turned into another shipping battle thread.Kingdom come sucks for me cause it's overt in its savior nonesense portrayal.Heck!does it by invoking goldenage sensibilities.A character that was written to be just a scifi action character.Not some humdrum self proclaimed symbol that can't even backup the said "greatness" on paper.It falls into slippery slope and other nonsensical arguments.There is zero difference between this story and "what's so funny".Both are trying to go for the petty nostalgia with dash of "superheroes shouldn't be this way or that way",not giving the devil it's due.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 09-13-2021 at 11:31 PM.
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  10. #70
    Extraordinary Member HsssH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    As far as i am concerned superman can date a brick.
    Lol, this sums up last couple of pages rather well.

  11. #71
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    Sign me up for the list of people who want a "Superman Year 2" from Waid. Preferably something that uses the Daily Planet cast heavily.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venomized-spider-man View Post
    I kind of have to disagree with Waid a lot here. Killing off Lois in Kingdom come hasn't really hurt the character in the long run as fans still wanted Lois back even during the New 52 and they did bring her back. We didn't even see her death in the book so you can't say is as bad as Barbra Gordon being cripple or Alexandra DeWitt corpse partially seen in the fridge, it just not massively insulting as say Injustice.

    Also KC is an alternate universe and to say that Superman should only be with Lois or no one else not even in different universe is creatively limiting and falls a little to close to the weird Man of steel notion that superman only cares only about human race because of Lois. Like imagine if every single batman stories the only robin he could have is only Tim Drake no dick no Damian no Jason just Tim or the only green lantern that can be chosen is Kyle Rayner. Lois is superman main love interest in main continuity and nothing would really change that among fans but to say superman should only be with Lois in every story is ridiculous. Multiple stories (some canon ones) say that superman would live for thousands of years and out live all the non-immortal justice leaguers but tie down to one normal mortal woman?

    KC is a "happy Ending" don't know what Waid is talk about that. Superman regains his humanity and overcome his grief and loss, The human and metahuman begin to rebuild together, batman understood his faults of being a self-righteous Machiavellian and respark a connection with his family, Diana is accepted back by her people. The Justice Society follow up to KC was great little montage of seeing the future of Superman from the death of Bruce Wayne to Kamandi second apocalypse to the legion of superheroes. Seeing superman alone just because you didn't like the idea of a ship contradicts the main message of Kingdom Come of unity and understanding and the entire arc of superman over coming his grief and being more attach to humanity

    Im sorry everyone is entitle to their opinion but I have to massively disagree
    I mean you can disagree all you want but your opinion isnít exactly on the same level as Waidís given heís the writer.

    And I think you are misunderstanding the issues.

    Yes, KC absolutely, positively had a long term misogynist impact on both Lois AND on Diana. Itís because of Kingdom Come that stories like Injustice came later. Itís because of KC that killing her off violently in every elseword became a trend. Itís because of KC that Diana slowly became more and more ďcoldĒ and warrior like vs. her original values of gentleness and love in subsequent years. You say we didnít see Lois die as if itís a good thing when, in truth, itís a damned if you do damned if you donít situation. Not seeing her die (and you do see it in the second book and itís AWFUL) is dehumanizing to her and allowed the audience to essentially forget about her. Sheís a dead body and thatís it. No agency. But then it led to stories like Injustice where her death is disgusting and brutal. Both are dehumanizing and lack agency. Both are problematic in different ways.

    Waid never said Superman should never be with anyone else. He said he would never ::marry:: anyone else. Because marriage vows are forever and someone as honest as Clark canít promise he will love anyone forever but Lois. You act like thatís so unbelievable but thatís completely silly because you donít question that Superman can maintain his honor in any other way. If you believe that Superman can do all the incredible things he can do and not be corrupted than it shouldnít be unreasonable to also understand that Lois is the love of his life. To single her out as the one piece you canít accept when you accept the outlandish nature of everything else in this story is suspect.

    No itís not a ďhappy ending.Ē A world where Lois is murdered is never ever ever a happy ending for Clark. And thatís the misunderstanding of the entire thing. It may be a peaceful ending. It is a making the best of the worst situation ending. But itís not a happy ending. Itís a cautionary tale. No story where Lois is dead before her time is Supermanís happy ending and if you think it is, you donít understand this character.

    But this is literally exactly why Waid doesnít like this story. You are proving his point,

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    As far as i am concerned superman can date a brick.This thread turned into another shipping battle thread.Kingdom come sucks for me cause it's overt in its savior nonesense portrayal.Heck!does it by invoking goldenage sensibilities.A character that was written to be just a scifi action character.Not some humdrum self proclaimed symbol that can't even backup the said "greatness" on paper.It falls into slippery slope and other nonsensical arguments.There is zero difference between this story and "what's so funny".Both are trying to go for the petty nostalgia with dash of "superheroes shouldn't be this way or that way",not giving the devil it's due.
    This shouldn’t have to be explained to you but “it’s not a good thing to kill women off to cause their husband’s man pain” is not shipping drama. Lois is the second most important person in this myth. What happens to her and how it impacts her is not shipping drama. And it’s sexist and condescending that you constantly imply it is. But expected at this point.

  14. #74
    Ultimate Member Vordan's Avatar
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    https://www.dccomics.com/blog/2021/1...n-the-new-year


    And finally, writer Mark Waid teams up with long-running Detective Comics artist Dan Mora for a new story set in the DC Universe, bringing readers to the start of a brand-new day for Batman… and Superman. This is just the beginning for Waid and Mora—and for Superman and Batman!
    More Mark Waid news!
    Last edited by Vordan; 10-14-2021 at 01:58 PM.
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  15. #75
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Mark Waid and Dan Mora relaunching Batman/Superman?

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