Mark Waid, Brain Hitch & Kevin Nolan's Black Label Superman book

[manofsteel1979]

I remember that story as well.

Nice to know I'm not crazy!

As much as I respect Waid as a creator and has mostly enjoyed the few times he's written Supes, if he had pulled that kind of a stunt at the theater I was at after paying 13 bucks or so for a ticket I think I would have had choice words with him. I can understand being upset with the choice a story makes with characters you care about, but you don't yell at the screen and make yourself the center of attention. That's childish entitled behavior. Just get up and quietly walk out.

I'll never understand why some people put Kingdom Come into their Top Comics lists.

The Alex Ross art. Its truly breathtaking stuff. Its easy to overlook the problems with the actual story when the art is so beautiful.

I feel the same way about Kingdom Come as I do about FOR TOMORROW. Beautiful to look at....but the story has a lot of issues.

[Vordan]

That ending wasn't earned is the problem. Kingdom Come Superman is as much the villain of the story as anyone else. He set up a literal Gulag that directly led to all the deaths and destruction. Wonder Woman's actions exasperated the whole situation as well. Batman is basically using the villains as slave labor. That ending is completely at odds with the actions of those characters and they don't deserve any of it. It should have ended on a dark and depressing note, because that is what those versions of the characters earned.

Ross wanted everyone but Superman to die in the nuke. Waid wanted everyone to live. They compromised.

KC Superman is like DKR Batman in that a lot of the actions he takes aren’t morally clean, but he’s supposed to have found some measure of redemption in the end and recognizes that he made mistakes. Honestly the issues with the Gulag puzzle me, Superman exiling people to the PZ is far more messed up given the Gulag is shown to basically be on par with prisons in Nordic countries, and Superman is aiming to rehabilitate the antiheroes not just punish them. Is him arbitrarily locking them up bad? Yes but he’s nowhere near “supervillain” status imo. His real failing is that he doesn’t give humanity any say in what happens and just does what he wants. But to say he’s responsible for everything is unfair, those antiheroes were quasi villains themselves, they had no regard for life or showcased any restraint. They broke out and immediately tried to kill anyone in their way that’s not heroic behavior at all.

It’s more morally gray than how I’ve seen people paint it.

[Robanker]

I remember that story as well.



I'll never understand why some people put Kingdom Come into their Top Comics lists.

It's really pretty. People are fickle.

[Sacred Knight]

Hmm...depends on how the no-kill thing is approached. I'm not in agreement that he should have a staunch no-kill rule in the first place. But over other...alternatives we've seen in recent years I sure as hell prefer it over those. I just hope its under the surface, enough that the message is within an intriguing story. And hopefully that message isn't too preachy or pretentious.

[Robanker]

Hmm...depends on how the no-kill thing is approached. I'm not in agreement that he should have a staunch no-kill rule in the first place. But over other...alternatives we've seen in recent years I sure as hell prefer it over those. I just hope its under the surface, enough that the message is within an intriguing story. And hopefully that message isn't too preachy or pretentious.

I think he should have it in the early days and that Doomsday forces him to reconsider, but that he still refuses to exercise that option unless he absolutely cannot find another way.

Zack Snyder accidentally hit on a very Superman trait in BvS, just in reverse: Superman's mantra should essentially be "if there's even a 1% chance they can become a better person, we have to take it as an absolute certainty."

He'd never give up on someone. A mindless beast like Doomsday that he can't contain? It needs to take a dirt nap. Clark understands that. Hell, Bruce does. He just conveniently decides not to address what Clark did in the moment and moves on.

[Vordan]

Hmm...depends on how the no-kill thing is approached. I'm not in agreement that he should have a staunch no-kill rule in the first place. But over other...alternatives we've seen in recent years I sure as hell prefer it over those. I just hope its under the surface, enough that the message is within an intriguing story. And hopefully that message isn't too preachy or pretentious.

He’s going to take explicit shots at Snyder, his AMA shows he’s still pissed, but his B/S is off to a good start so he may be able to still offer up a satisfactory successor to Birthright. I’m mostly interested in what Rogue he will use, since Waid has never gotten to do much with any beyond Lex.

[lotchj]

Waid talked about this openly years ago when he was the guest teacher for an online woman in comics course and he’s revisited it again on Twitter.

He regrets pairing Superman and Wonder Woman because too many misogynists used it as an invitation to assume it’s better to get rid of Lois.

Waid isn’t pro marriage but he is pro Lois and has gone on record that Superman will only ever marry Lois and will never remarry if she dies.

His dislike for KC has a lot to do with how it impacted Lois long term and he took a lot of heat for the poor way he handled Diana as well. He took heat for it in the class as I recall and he fully owned it.

I don’t think he would be as anti KC now if the Superwonder thing wasn’t a part of it.

Have to say i loved the Superman and Wonder woman pairing!! For me Superman and wonder woman being a couple was the best part of the 52 universe. As for the KC, i loved them being together. I hope to see Superman and Wonder woman together as a couple again in the future!!!

[SiegePerilous02]

I've soured on the Snyder movies even though I initially defended MOS. It's still the best of those films, but harder to defend now knowing where it was intended to go.

That said, Waid's outburst in the theater if it really happened is still really childish. Nobody should act like that in public over a dumb superhero movie of all things. I will probably side with whatever he writes to skewer stuff like the neck snap, but at the same time I hope he doesn't go overboard with it

[manwhohaseverything]

I think he should have it in the early days and that Doomsday forces him to reconsider, but that he still refuses to exercise that option unless he absolutely cannot find another way.

Zack Snyder accidentally hit on a very Superman trait in BvS, just in reverse: Superman's mantra should essentially be "if there's even a 1% chance they can become a better person, we have to take it as an absolute certainty."

He'd never give up on someone. A mindless beast like Doomsday that he can't contain? It needs to take a dirt nap. Clark understands that. Hell, Bruce does. He just conveniently decides not to address what Clark did in the moment and moves on.

That was batman..The reverse guy in snyder movies.

i mean.I am of the mind that clark doesn't care.

"if you want to be good,evil or whatever they call..your choice ".

He's just gonna protect the weak.That's it.just plain old fashioned chivalry..nothing more or less.That doesn't mean he ain't compassionate.He's just not gonna be your dad.He is just gonna be that awkward cousin that trips all over the place,does work that doesn't pay nearly as good and is exceptionally brilliant in disguise.

[Robanker]

That was batman..The reverse guy in snyder movies.

i mean.I am of the mind that clark doesn't care.

"if you want to be good,evil or whatever they call..your choice ".

He's just gonna protect the weak.That's it.just plain old fashioned chivalry..nothing more or less.That doesn't mean he ain't compassionate.He's just not gonna be your dad.He is just gonna be that awkward cousin that trips all over the place,does work that doesn't pay nearly as good and is exceptionally brilliant in disguise.

I know it was Batman. My point is, if you reverse the line, it actually fits Superman perfectly. He wanted to make Batman an irredeemable ******* and having l have Superman's great victory be redeeming the Dark Knight of Gotham City, but that still never fits Bruce...

But that line was a full-on Bizarro level flip on who Superman is regardless of which mouth it came out of... Not that I think Snyder realized it.

Clark does care. We've seen that over 80 years. He demonstrably cares about everyone and wants us to be our best selves.

He's not just the Golden Age character anymore, and since then he's also become someone who wants to see us evolve past pettiness, so it stands to reason that he'll never give up on someone who can actually change for the better.

[HsssH]

Honestly the issues with the Gulag puzzle me, Superman exiling people to the PZ is far more messed up given the Gulag is shown to basically be on par with prisons in Nordic countries, and Superman is aiming to rehabilitate the antiheroes not just punish them.

I think the issue is writing. If Waid (or Ross I guess?) simply called it a prison then it would make sense. But Gulag has certain meaning attached, that being political prisoners, forced labour and poor living/working conditions that would often lead to early deaths. It is kinda if Superman called it "concentration camp". Sure, we would never see Superman putting anyone in a gas chamber, but it still would sound real fucked up.

[Gaius]

I think the issue is writing. If Waid (or Ross I guess?) simply called it a prison then it would make sense. But Gulag has certain meaning attached, that being political prisoners, forced labour and poor living/working conditions that would often lead to early deaths. It is kinda if Superman called it "concentration camp". Sure, we would never see Superman putting anyone in a gas chamber, but it still would sound real fucked up.

I wouldn't be surprised if "Gulag" was actually used instead "Concentration Camp" because it's known enough that people know what it means but not as charged a term (at least to the American audience Waid was writing to) as the latter term is.

[Yohei72]

But "Brain Hitch" is my nickname.

[DABellWrites]

Ross wanted everyone but Superman to die in the nuke. Waid wanted everyone to live. They compromised.

KC Superman is like DKR Batman in that a lot of the actions he takes aren’t morally clean, but he’s supposed to have found some measure of redemption in the end and recognizes that he made mistakes. Honestly the issues with the Gulag puzzle me, Superman exiling people to the PZ is far more messed up given the Gulag is shown to basically be on par with prisons in Nordic countries, and Superman is aiming to rehabilitate the antiheroes not just punish them. Is him arbitrarily locking them up bad? Yes but he’s nowhere near “supervillain” status imo. His real failing is that he doesn’t give humanity any say in what happens and just does what he wants. But to say he’s responsible for everything is unfair, those antiheroes were quasi villains themselves, they had no regard for life or showcased any restraint. They broke out and immediately tried to kill anyone in their way that’s not heroic behavior at all.

It’s more morally gray than how I’ve seen people paint it.

I remember a wizard article on the Superman and Wonder Woman appreciation thread; Ross wanted Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman to live in the end. But yeah, I think Ross's original vision for KC is much more darker than the what we actually got. Which makes sense considering it was his criticism against the post-Watchmen superhero landscape.

[Stanlos]

Have to say i loved the Superman and Wonder woman pairing!! For me Superman and wonder woman being a couple was the best part of the 52 universe. As for the KC, i loved them being together. I hope to see Superman and Wonder woman together as a couple again in the future!!!

Ugh.

Superman and WW as lover peoples is a no for me.

More than that, I found it absurd that all the heroes would peace out deuces if Superman retired. It is like that weird thing in Injustice where Superman losing his marbles over the tragic deaths orchestrated by Joker suddenly made WW a Wonder THOT in a bleep-fog and almost everyone just became spineless.

Do you Superman superfans feel that the other heroes would be altered as much by Superman's change in course?