Can A Good Solo Superman Game Be Made? How Would You Make Work?

[Vordan]

Purse snatcher or parademon, bottom of the barrel trash mob enemies are something to approach very carefully when you're building a game that purports to give players the chance to be one of the most powerful beings in fiction.

We've seen other Super games explain why any mob is a threat. Players don't like it, it doesn't feel like Superman. A game that provides the Super experience can't do that and stay within the bounds of a mindless beat-em-up, and if you're not trying to provide the Super experience there's no point burning the money on the licensing.

As a zoomer I don’t know which ones you’re referring to. Returns did what you guys are saying should be done - Supes is invincible and nothing can hurt him, it’s the city he has to worry about, only the bosses can hurt him and that’s where he gets a health bar - and players did not respond very positively to that at all, game is regarded as boring. Turning the entire game into one big escort mission does not make for a fun experience. When you’re adapting something to another medium, changes have to be made. Batman does not heal in the comics from executing perfect combos but he does in the Arkham games because it would not be fun to have to go back to the manor and have Alfred heal your wounds after every fight.

While it might not be “comic accurate”, I expect if a Superman game ever were to happen there would be arbitrary limitations to make the character work for a game. I don’t believe that players would reject a health bar the way you think, previous Superman games failed for reasons regarding budget rather than because he had a health bar. People certainly seemed interested in the Factor 5 game which would have given him a health bar and nerfed him to DCAU levels. If you are correct that people won’t accept such changes then the people who say it’s impossible to make a good Superman game are right. You could make a decent tech demo of Superman flying around putting out fires and saving people which would capture the “Superman experience” but it would not be fun and it would never be commercially viable.

[Alpha]

As a zoomer I don’t know which ones you’re referring to. Returns did what you guys are saying should be done - Supes is invincible and nothing can hurt him, it’s the city he has to worry about, only the bosses can hurt him and that’s where he gets a health bar -

Who was pitching that?

[JAK]

As a zoomer I don’t know which ones you’re referring to.

There's quite a list:
"Superman" (Atari 2600)
"The Death and Return Of Superman" (SNES/Genesis)
"Superman" (NES)
"Superman" (Game Boy)
"Superman 64"
"Superman: Countdown To Apokalips" (Game Boy Advance)


"Superman" (Taito Arcade) and "Superman" (Genesis, also Master System semi-port) should get an honorable mentions here because basic small rocks in the sky - with no sign of Kryptonite - hurt him, as well, as does (on the Genesis game) basic humans like the Toyman... *when he walks casually into Superman*. His attacks? Sure. But not just walking into Superman.

Returns did what you guys are saying should be done - Supes is invincible and nothing can hurt him, it’s the city he has to worry about, only the bosses can hurt him and that’s where he gets a health bar - and players did not respond very positively to that at all, game is regarded as boring. Turning the entire game into one big escort mission does not make for a fun experience. When you’re adapting something to another medium, changes have to be made. Batman does not heal in the comics from executing perfect combos but he does in the Arkham games because it would not be fun to have to go back to the manor and have Alfred heal your wounds after every fight.

Everyone brings up "Superman Returns" as if that's what everyone wants - even when they specifically say otherwise. But here's a closer example: "Superman: Shadow of Apokolips" Yes, he does still have a health bar, but more basic enemies and their bullets don't take that much of a chunk out of it. Give that better/faster controls and some other tweaks, make it more open-world, and that's (imo) much closer to what those of us who want a more "Superman" experience from a game are after. In fact, the tutorial doesn't even give Superman a health bar at all. There's a happy medium there that still gives a Superman experience AND a solid gaming one.

The main reason "Blue Steel" had so much interest is because it looked great, and Superman fans don't get that many games that are good on too many levels. Who knows what that would have looked like if it actually was completed, or what the reception might have been to reduced power levels. If it had nerfed him to DCAU levels, then that simply would have still left room for a game with the balance we're talking about.

Purse snatcher or parademon, bottom of the barrel trash mob enemies are something to approach very carefully when you're building a game that purports to give players the chance to be one of the most powerful beings in fiction.

We've seen other Super games explain why any mob is a threat. Players don't like it, it doesn't feel like Superman. A game that provides the Super experience can't do that and stay within the bounds of a mindless beat-em-up, and if you're not trying to provide the Super experience there's no point burning the money on the licensing.

Exactly. Random 90's-cliche gang members could punch Superman in "The Death and Return of Superman." That's just bonkers. Parademons are something I'd like to see as more of a problem when there's a large group (which should be most of the time, but still).

[DochaDocha]

Morrison's Superman is not just a good starting point for the movies. It'd be a good starting point for a AAA Superman game.

One advantage of using Morrison's run is that you can use the video game staple of character leveling up. Console action games have had leveling up systems for nearly 40 years, e.g. the first Octorok Link encounters in the original Zelda could've killed him in like 6 hits, but that same Octorok would need about 128 hits to kill Link at his most powerful. So say the weakest version of Superman can only take a few laser shots from an Intergang guy, but by end game after t-shirt and jeans Superman evolves into full-costume Superman that same dude's chances are down to zero.

Alternatively, you could do a Metroid Prime sort of gimmick like starting out with a pretty powerful version of Superman and demo/tutorial for the player a bunch of things Superman would be able to do eventually, but then take away a bunch of the powers. This could work via a flashback or plot device like Kryptonite poisoning.

Finally, since AAA games are very story-driven, you can easily explain to the player that this nerfed version of Superman in the beginning of the game isn't the one you're going to finish the game with.

But as others have already mentioned, you can't do either extreme of making Superman unkillable like Lego Batman did or have him so weak that any mook on the street can kill him.

EDIT: And since we're talking modern, AAA games, have some fun with the AI and other interactions. For instance, if a random criminal tried to shoot Superman, have him complain that his bullets do nothing. Or if he tried to punch Superman, he'd break his hand. Or if he was desperate, he'd run away at first sight.

[JAK]

Morrison's Superman is not just a good starting point for the movies. It'd be a good starting point for a AAA Superman game.

One advantage of using Morrison's run is that you can use the video game staple of character leveling up. Console action games have had leveling up systems for nearly 40 years, e.g. the first Octorok Link encounters in the original Zelda could've killed him in like 6 hits, but that same Octorok would need about 128 hits to kill Link at his most powerful. So say the weakest version of Superman can only take a few laser shots from an Intergang guy, but by end game after t-shirt and jeans Superman evolves into full-costume Superman that same dude's chances are down to zero.

Alternatively, you could do a Metroid Prime sort of gimmick like starting out with a pretty powerful version of Superman and demo/tutorial for the player a bunch of things Superman would be able to do eventually, but then take away a bunch of the powers. This could work via a flashback or plot device like Kryptonite poisoning.

Finally, since AAA games are very story-driven, you can easily explain to the player that this nerfed version of Superman in the beginning of the game isn't the one you're going to finish the game with.

But as others have already mentioned, you can't do either extreme of making Superman unkillable like Lego Batman did or have him so weak that any mook on the street can kill him.

All good ideas. I'd also give the example of games like Dragon Quest (Dragon Warrior for us NES lovers), where a slime can be a small challenge at the start, and barely a whimper when you've leveled, even as a group. Even if you start in the latter, it's not like slimes are the whole game at that point, just as random bank robbers wouldn't be the whole game (or even 20% of it) in a Superman game. But I'd definitely be ok with what you're describing here.

EDIT: And since we're talking modern, AAA games, have some fun with the AI and other interactions. For instance, if a random criminal tried to shoot Superman, have him complain that his bullets do nothing. Or if he tried to punch Superman, he'd break his hand. Or if he was desperate, he'd run away at first sight.

Yes! I love this. Again, not all that different from the slimes in Dragon Quest running away quickly after you've leveled up.

[DochaDocha]

Heh, was about to use Dragon Quest/Dragon Warrior as an example but figured Zelda was easier to explain. But yeah, classic JRPGs are better examples of the effect of leveling up.