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  1. #151
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    I think a lot of solid budget titles can be made out into a Superman game. Superman Returns got a lot of flack for giving the city its own life gauge, but if you were making something along the lines of a tower defense title, I think the idea of protecting the city would be OK. It could center around mechanics like DPS, cooldown time for special attacks, etc. It's not ambitious, but it's really better than nothing.

  2. #152
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    You know, having weak enemies can help from time to time if the issue is that Superman getting hurt won’t let you “feel” like Superman.

  3. #153
    Extraordinary Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    You know, having weak enemies can help from time to time if the issue is that Superman getting hurt won’t let you “feel” like Superman.
    Well, except for fighting games like MvC... or Tekken.... most games have varying ranks of enemies. So having a wave of cannon fodder makes sense... it's not the only enemy in the game, but it's AN enemy. Maybe fight a guy in power armor next or something...

  4. #154
    Ultimate Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    I'm really late to the party, but the genres I'm mostly into don't really fit Superman, like RPG and FPS. But I was wondering if perhaps something in the mold of action adventure/hack and slash like Devil May Cry could work?
    Action-RPG is what the Arkham games are, what the Gotham Knights game will be, and likely what the WW game will be. I think that genre would be perfect for Superman.
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  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    Well, except for fighting games like MvC... or Tekken.... most games have varying ranks of enemies. So having a wave of cannon fodder makes sense... it's not the only enemy in the game, but it's AN enemy. Maybe fight a guy in power armor next or something...
    I never liked fighting games to begin with, so I’d avoid that anyways.

  6. #156
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    You know, having weak enemies can help from time to time if the issue is that Superman getting hurt won¬ít let you ¬ďfeel¬Ē like Superman.
    Leveled/stacked enemies of varying threat are kind of a given aren't they?

    But I think you need more than just that kind of basic approach to the game's challenges. If all you have are "low level enemies can't hurt you, mid-level ones can a bit, and high-level ones can seriously" that's only gonna get you so far. I think you need different objectives that encourage creative problem solving. Mindlessly wrecking a group of thugs with no hope of damaging you can be fun, but on average there should be more to it; maybe the thugs can't hurt you but the real objective is to search the base you're in, find their nuke, and stop it before it goes off. Maybe it's saving civilians from those thugs and the challenge is how you handle the entire scenario, not how much damage you take. Sometimes the best use of the bad guys is as a distraction, not as the goal.

    I suggested at the start of the thread a reputation system that would be impacted by your actions, Fables style. Not going as far as "evil Superman" but ranging between "Golden Age outlaw" and "Shakes hands with the POTUS." So part of the challenge is always in how you approach a mission; ripping the base apart to find the nuke pushes your rep one way, keeping collateral damage to a minimum pushes it another. To that end, environments should be fully destructive (for that proper Superman experience) but you should have a "hold back" ability to toggle on or off that stops you from breaking your surroundings when you don't want to.

    There should obviously be a lot of variety in bad guys and their threat. I want thugs with no hope of hurting your HP, parademons that can hurt you a little and become a threat in large numbers (or something similar, whatever), roaming villains that can kill you if you're not careful, and bosses that are difficult to defeat at all. We need all of that and more in a quality Superman game.

    But I also think you need more threats than just whether the bad guy can hurt you; you should be putting out fires (literally), be saving civilians, racing against clocks, solving puzzles, investigating, and of course battling against supervillains, getting thrown through buildings.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

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  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Leveled/stacked enemies of varying threat are kind of a given aren't they?

    But I think you need more than just that kind of basic approach to the game's challenges. If all you have are "low level enemies can't hurt you, mid-level ones can a bit, and high-level ones can seriously" that's only gonna get you so far. I think you need different objectives that encourage creative problem solving. Mindlessly wrecking a group of thugs with no hope of damaging you can be fun, but on average there should be more to it; maybe the thugs can't hurt you but the real objective is to search the base you're in, find their nuke, and stop it before it goes off. Maybe it's saving civilians from those thugs and the challenge is how you handle the entire scenario, not how much damage you take. Sometimes the best use of the bad guys is as a distraction, not as the goal.

    I suggested at the start of the thread a reputation system that would be impacted by your actions, Fables style. Not going as far as "evil Superman" but ranging between "Golden Age outlaw" and "Shakes hands with the POTUS." So part of the challenge is always in how you approach a mission; ripping the base apart to find the nuke pushes your rep one way, keeping collateral damage to a minimum pushes it another. To that end, environments should be fully destructive (for that proper Superman experience) but you should have a "hold back" ability to toggle on or off that stops you from breaking your surroundings when you don't want to.

    There should obviously be a lot of variety in bad guys and their threat. I want thugs with no hope of hurting your HP, parademons that can hurt you a little and become a threat in large numbers (or something similar, whatever), roaming villains that can kill you if you're not careful, and bosses that are difficult to defeat at all. We need all of that and more in a quality Superman game.

    But I also think you need more threats than just whether the bad guy can hurt you; you should be putting out fires (literally), be saving civilians, racing against clocks, solving puzzles, investigating, and of course battling against supervillains, getting thrown through buildings.
    I agree with what you're saying, but I think we're getting ahead of ourselves anyways.

    We need to determine what the most important part of the game is going to be like: the plot. Without that, there's no point in talking about mechanics since we're not sure how it'd interact with the plot.

  8. #158
    Extraordinary Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    I agree with what you're saying, but I think we're getting ahead of ourselves anyways.

    We need to determine what the most important part of the game is going to be like: the plot. Without that, there's no point in talking about mechanics since we're not sure how it'd interact with the plot.
    Is it though? There's a wide overlap between uses for mechanics. for example the game format of MK... there's a whole lot of stories you could tell using that style of combat.

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    Is it though? There's a wide overlap between uses for mechanics. for example the game format of MK... there's a whole lot of stories you could tell using that style of combat.
    The story of a game always tells you what mechanics makes sense and which don't. Going backwards is what lead to the Batmobile overtaking the gameplay of Arkham Knight.

    What's the main conflict going to be? Who's going to be the main villain?

    If it's going to be Lex, you'd be more inclined to add more slower scenes of Superman investigating as Clark Kent.

    If the game takes place on War World entirely, it might just play as a Dragon Ball style arena fighter.

    If the main plot is an earthquake ravaging the city, you would put more missions focused on Superman doing search and rescue. Maybe even have Missing Persons missions.

    It's unrealistic to have everything in one game as it risks having unfocused gameplay. That's why it's important to start with the plot, so that you can narrow the focus.

  10. #160
    Astonishing Member Prime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Leveled/stacked enemies of varying threat are kind of a given aren't they?

    But I think you need more than just that kind of basic approach to the game's challenges. If all you have are "low level enemies can't hurt you, mid-level ones can a bit, and high-level ones can seriously" that's only gonna get you so far. I think you need different objectives that encourage creative problem solving. Mindlessly wrecking a group of thugs with no hope of damaging you can be fun, but on average there should be more to it; maybe the thugs can't hurt you but the real objective is to search the base you're in, find their nuke, and stop it before it goes off. Maybe it's saving civilians from those thugs and the challenge is how you handle the entire scenario, not how much damage you take. Sometimes the best use of the bad guys is as a distraction, not as the goal.

    I suggested at the start of the thread a reputation system that would be impacted by your actions, Fables style. Not going as far as "evil Superman" but ranging between "Golden Age outlaw" and "Shakes hands with the POTUS." So part of the challenge is always in how you approach a mission; ripping the base apart to find the nuke pushes your rep one way, keeping collateral damage to a minimum pushes it another. To that end, environments should be fully destructive (for that proper Superman experience) but you should have a "hold back" ability to toggle on or off that stops you from breaking your surroundings when you don't want to.

    There should obviously be a lot of variety in bad guys and their threat. I want thugs with no hope of hurting your HP, parademons that can hurt you a little and become a threat in large numbers (or something similar, whatever), roaming villains that can kill you if you're not careful, and bosses that are difficult to defeat at all. We need all of that and more in a quality Superman game.

    But I also think you need more threats than just whether the bad guy can hurt you; you should be putting out fires (literally), be saving civilians, racing against clocks, solving puzzles, investigating, and of course battling against supervillains, getting thrown through buildings.
    Why can't the nameless thugs be powered by kryptonite or something though?

  11. #161
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prime View Post
    Why can't the nameless thugs be powered by kryptonite or something though?
    They can, and some *should,* I just don't think it'd be good for the game's immersion if *every* enemy NPC can damage you. If the game is on Warworld or Apokolips or something, it would make sense....but would a player, especially one who isn't a big comic fan, feel like they're playing Superman....or just a generic action game with a famous name? Same goes for a game with the Golden Age power levels; it might make sense but will players feel like they're the Superman they know and love?

    The biggest hurdle for a Superman game is making you feel like you're playing Superman while still challenging the player right? If every mugger and bank robber has a chance of defeating you, even if it's a low chance....that's not a very Superman-like feeling to have.

    So I figure you have some enemies who literally cannot hurt you. Walk away from the controller for twenty minutes, when you come back they'll still be hitting you to no avail. But the goal isn't to survive the encounter, it's to accomplish something else. And then you'd have some enemies who have kryptonite weapons, and they're stupid easy to defeat but can actually dent your health bar. Very low threat, but it's *a* threat. And then you have some threats who can tank a little more damage from you, rogue DNAliens, or robots, or parademons, or something like that; those guys wouldn't be much of a threat unless they've got numbers but you could still get killed by them if you're careless. And then you'd have some villains like Metallo who can straight up defeat you one-on-one, and then your boss level bad guys where winning at all is difficult.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  12. #162
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    They can, and some *should,* I just don't think it'd be good for the game's immersion if *every* enemy NPC can damage you. If the game is on Warworld or Apokolips or something, it would make sense....but would a player, especially one who isn't a big comic fan, feel like they're playing Superman....or just a generic action game with a famous name? Same goes for a game with the Golden Age power levels; it might make sense but will players feel like they're the Superman they know and love?

    The biggest hurdle for a Superman game is making you feel like you're playing Superman while still challenging the player right? If every mugger and bank robber has a chance of defeating you, even if it's a low chance....that's not a very Superman-like feeling to have.

    So I figure you have some enemies who literally cannot hurt you. Walk away from the controller for twenty minutes, when you come back they'll still be hitting you to no avail. But the goal isn't to survive the encounter, it's to accomplish something else. And then you'd have some enemies who have kryptonite weapons, and they're stupid easy to defeat but can actually dent your health bar. Very low threat, but it's *a* threat. And then you have some threats who can tank a little more damage from you, rogue DNAliens, or robots, or parademons, or something like that; those guys wouldn't be much of a threat unless they've got numbers but you could still get killed by them if you're careless. And then you'd have some villains like Metallo who can straight up defeat you one-on-one, and then your boss level bad guys where winning at all is difficult.
    This, and everything else you've said. 10,000%. There's a lot more versatility possible in a Superman game, if it's applied properly.

    Here's another thought to add to it: make two play/difficulty modes - one called "Classic" (or easy mode) where you're classic Superman; you have a very high power level, but it doesn't progress. Expert "Action Comics" mode could start you at "Golden Age" level, and time plus other things builds your power level up to crazy Silver Age point if you work hard enough.
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  13. #163
    Ultimate Member Vordan's Avatar
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    You guys are thinking about a Superman game from a perspective of “how can we be accurate to the lore?” when that’s not how games work. Games are made by saying “what would be fun to play?” and Superman not having any challenge fighting the majority of enemies would be boring. If you need a hand wave you can literally just have Mr. Mxy give everyone a boost because he thinks it would be fun, he’s a freaking reality warper. Otherwise setting the game on Warworld or in the Phantom Zone would also easily solve that problem.
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  14. #164
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Oh I'm not thinking about the lore, I'm thinking about the *sensation.* And I don't think people would be satisfied with a Superman game where you can be defeated by a random mugger or some other basic enemy. Saying that each enemy has kryptonite weapons, or was enhanced by a higher dimensional imp, or is a parademon from an alien hellworld....those are excuses and justifications and I doubt the casual gamer would care; they'd just see a "Superman" game where they don't feel as powerful as they think Superman should be. And if players don't feel like Superman, the game won't be successful.

    I've stressed before, there does need to be physical threats who can defeat you. But not *every* challenge and threat has to just be a physical one. Sometimes it should be "how" you win the fight, not whether you can win at all.

    Maybe I should elaborate exactly what I mean? So here's a random example of a possible mission chain. Just a very loose, vague example; the actual game would need more depth than this but hopefully it'll get my point across if anyone's been misunderstanding me here.....

    Mission 1, you gotta stop the 100 gang from blowing up a building. The objective is to find the bomb before it detonates, so it's a timed mission. Basic enemies cannot hurt you, the challenge is finding the bomb in time and secondary objectives might include keeping collateral damage and injury to a minimum. You'd find a few higher end 100 gang members with Intergang weapons who can hurt you a bit; they're mostly just there to slow you down but you *could* be defeated by them.

    Mission 2 might be a "Clark" centric mission where you roam around Suicide Slum, interviewing people and trying to find the Intergang dealers. Objectives include finding clues without giving away your secret identity and solving some puzzles, with secondary objectives for stopping accidents and/or random crime (muggings, etc) without being seen doing it.

    Mission 3, Clark has found Intergang and swoops in to ruin their day. All the basic enemies have advanced weapons that can hurt you, with tougher mini bosses and a final boss in Ugly Mannheim, who's using alien tech that can straight up kill you. The only objective is to crush all opposition and not die doing it.

    So there'd be plenty of challenges in this mission chain and plenty of bad guys who could hurt you, but it's not *just* a matter of physical defeat and you'd have a wider range of objectives and goals than just "hit the bad guy until they fall down."

    Add in the reputation system I've suggested, and how you get the job done becomes more challenging and fun than just whether you can beat everyone up or not. Sometimes it should just be as simple as beating everyone up, but that's not going to be enough for a Superman game. The lore? Hell with that, what you have to worry about is the character's legend and reputation among the masses; people have an expectation for what Superman is and a game would have to account for that or risk being seen as, like I said, a generic action game with a famous name that it doesn't live up to.
    Last edited by Ascended; 01-30-2022 at 12:02 PM.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  15. #165

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    Nvm.

    25 characters
    Last edited by the illustrious mr. kenway; 01-30-2022 at 06:48 PM.

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