Can A Good Solo Superman Game Be Made? How Would You Make Work?

[JAK]

Well.... in DCUO one of the items I have in my hideout is a bottled city. They play with that plot a lot actually. Several of the queue(on duty) missions involve stopping Brainiac from bottling parts of Metropolis and Gotham. They really leaned hard on the "OMG must stop Brainiac" angle But it actually works though and Brainiac doesn't succeed.

Oh, same on the bottled city - I have that whole set. In fact, I have a whole base that's based on the Fortress of Solitude. I haven't played DCUO in a LOOOONG time, but I was playing a lot when those missions were new.

one of possible ideas for Superman game was survival horror featuring 5-dimensional creatures

That.... my first instinctual reaction to the idea isn't exactly great, but maybe with more of a fleshed out idea, I could be persuaded? Maybe?

[Daedra]

[The Overlord]

When people talk about Superman just protecting people in a game, they don't understand why escort missions are so hated. Usually the players have to babysit an NPC that has a death wish:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ykVOo1z0_gM

[marhawkman]

When people talk about Superman just protecting people in a game, they don't understand why escort missions are so hated. Usually the players have to babysit an NPC that has a death wish:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ykVOo1z0_gM

Aw.... poor guy.... That's more that some escort missions are badly designed.

Then you have this monster.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjwSw157wBA
It's not really all that hard as long as you have 10 players who get stuff done.... and 1 or more healers who know what needs healed. Also it's not an insta-fail if one thing goes wrong.... unless that one thing is the ventilation scoop.

Why is it a monster? the sheer scale of it. It's an escort mission where you're guarding a flying aircraft Carrier. The team will have to smash HUNDREDS of Destroids to win. This is in total though, and the team is up to 10 players. But yeah, that's a lot of robot murder going down.

But thematically the idea of escort quests is perfect for a superhero game.

[Ascended]

People hate escort missions (and rightly so) because they're slow, the NPC's usually pick fights with every mob within a thousand yards, and often, the NPC is squishy as hell too so not only are you fighting every mob in the zone, you gotta keep your idiot alive through it all.

The concept of the escort quest fits nicely enough with the superhero construct, at least on paper, but the way they're usually structured is a blight upon the face of humanity.

For a Super game, if you needed escort missions, I'd think you'd want to avoid the basic structure where you slowly walk across a hostile zone defending somebody. Maybe instead you carry the NPC and fly them to safety? Make it more of an "avoidance/race" mission than a classic escort?

[JAK]

People hate escort missions (and rightly so) because they're slow, the NPC's usually pick fights with every mob within a thousand yards, and often, the NPC is squishy as hell too so not only are you fighting every mob in the zone, you gotta keep your idiot alive through it all.

The concept of the escort quest fits nicely enough with the superhero construct, at least on paper, but the way they're usually structured is a blight upon the face of humanity.

Ha! "keep your idiot alive" is probably the best sentence ever constructed to describe classic escort missions, lol!

For a Super game, if you needed escort missions, I'd think you'd want to avoid the basic structure where you slowly walk across a hostile zone defending somebody. Maybe instead you carry the NPC and fly them to safety? Make it more of an "avoidance/race" mission than a classic escort?

This. The only thing you'd have to worry about would be going too fast hurts the person, or something, so there'd be a slight amount of balance. But generally, no escort missions in the "classic" gaming sense. We're also in a much better place, technologically, to do escort missions properly and not have them be so annoying.

Also, when I think of Superman "protecting people," I think of him getting between the bad guy and them for a few seconds while the people get away - so less an escort mission and more of a "temporary tank" (in the MMORPG sense).

[marhawkman]

People hate escort missions (and rightly so) because they're slow, the NPC's usually pick fights with every mob within a thousand yards, and often, the NPC is squishy as hell too so not only are you fighting every mob in the zone, you gotta keep your idiot alive through it all.

The concept of the escort quest fits nicely enough with the superhero construct, at least on paper, but the way they're usually structured is a blight upon the face of humanity.

For a Super game, if you needed escort missions, I'd think you'd want to avoid the basic structure where you slowly walk across a hostile zone defending somebody. Maybe instead you carry the NPC and fly them to safety? Make it more of an "avoidance/race" mission than a classic escort?

Well, I've played 3 games that have escort missions that I consider to be good.

Champions Online I posted an example from... it has several and some are bad. Note: some where it's a guy walking from point A to point B... the guy actually just cowers in fear if enemies are around. Some.... then there's the one where you're escorting a sasquatch.... who will aggro on ANYTHING, so wipe the area of enemies just to be safe.

Star Trek Online and DCUO, Both have missions where you're defending something while a timer ticks down. Not quite the same thing, although sometimes the thing is moving while you defend it.

Also, when I think of Superman "protecting people," I think of him getting between the bad guy and them for a few seconds while the people get away - so less an escort mission and more of a "temporary tank" (in the MMORPG sense).

Or a minute or so...

[JAK]

Or a minute or so...

True - in my head, the first few seconds are Superman getting between to stop bullets, and then it's going after bad guys while the people get away, but it's also all part of protecting them. Definitely depends on the mission.

[Ascended]

This. The only thing you'd have to worry about would be going too fast hurts the person, or something, so there'd be a slight amount of balance. But generally, no escort missions in the "classic" gaming sense. We're also in a much better place, technologically, to do escort missions properly and not have them be so annoying.

Also, when I think of Superman "protecting people," I think of him getting between the bad guy and them for a few seconds while the people get away - so less an escort mission and more of a "temporary tank" (in the MMORPG sense).

That's about what I'm thinking; you pick up a NPC and fly them to....wherever; the hospital or STAR or maybe just outside the immediate neighborhood or whatever. You'd fly slower, in-story because you're carrying someone who can't handle the G-forces but in reality so that you could be chased by enemies who might not be able to keep up with you at full speed. Maybe if you take a big enough hit you drop your idiot and fail the mission, so you have to dodge and weave some, avoiding missiles or whatever.

And I think having to protect innocents by standing in front of them would work. Maybe we could add some kind of bullet time thing and you have to catch the bullets? One of those "press X quickly, now press O quickly!" things? Stuff like that has been used to great effect in other games, and I thought Insomniac's Spidey did a damn fine job of using that kinda mechanic to add a cinematic flair to certain bits.

Defensive missions, like marhawkman was mentioning with DCUO (the only one of those three games I've played) would be a good fit too; Clark plants his feet on the objective to be defended and refuses to let anyone get past him. Good chance to lean into Superman's tankiness.

[The Overlord]

People hate escort missions (and rightly so) because they're slow, the NPC's usually pick fights with every mob within a thousand yards, and often, the NPC is squishy as hell too so not only are you fighting every mob in the zone, you gotta keep your idiot alive through it all.

The concept of the escort quest fits nicely enough with the superhero construct, at least on paper, but the way they're usually structured is a blight upon the face of humanity.

For a Super game, if you needed escort missions, I'd think you'd want to avoid the basic structure where you slowly walk across a hostile zone defending somebody. Maybe instead you carry the NPC and fly them to safety? Make it more of an "avoidance/race" mission than a classic escort?

Okay, but if Superman is carrying an NPC, can the enemies still damage the NPC or will Superman's body block their attacks? Also if Superman can just grab an NPC and fly them to safety, could the enemies even get at the NPC?

The thing that makes a game fun is the challenge and for a game to be challenging, the player has to face failure if he or she screws up or just gets unlucky. In Superman game, Superman has to be able to lose anytime during the game.

That's why I think making Superman totally Invincible and just having him protect NPCs the whole game will get boring.

You can have the mook enemies be Brainiac drones or Parademons, so they have weapons that could hurt Superman, but still not be that challenging to defeat.


Then have boss characters like Metallo, Parasite, Zod, Brainiac, Darkseid, Lex Luthor with power armor, etc.

Superman can still protect NPCs, but that's not all he should do in the game.

[Prime]

Escort missions suck balls. I don't remember any on the Arkham series or in the Spiderman game. We don't need em.

[JAK]

That's about what I'm thinking; you pick up a NPC and fly them to....wherever; the hospital or STAR or maybe just outside the immediate neighborhood or whatever. You'd fly slower, in-story because you're carrying someone who can't handle the G-forces but in reality so that you could be chased by enemies who might not be able to keep up with you at full speed. Maybe if you take a big enough hit you drop your idiot and fail the mission, so you have to dodge and weave some, avoiding missiles or whatever.

And I think having to protect innocents by standing in front of them would work. Maybe we could add some kind of bullet time thing and you have to catch the bullets? One of those "press X quickly, now press O quickly!" things? Stuff like that has been used to great effect in other games, and I thought Insomniac's Spidey did a damn fine job of using that kinda mechanic to add a cinematic flair to certain bits.

Defensive missions, like marhawkman was mentioning with DCUO (the only one of those three games I've played) would be a good fit too; Clark plants his feet on the objective to be defended and refuses to let anyone get past him. Good chance to lean into Superman's tankiness.

I love all of that, and it would be a great way to add classic Superman moments to the game that would translate well, imo.

Okay, but if Superman is carrying an NPC, can the enemies still damage the NPC or will Superman's body block their attacks? Also if Superman can just grab an NPC and fly them to safety, could the enemies even get at the NPC

Superman's body would block the attack, unless it's powerful enough to knock them away from him - but that should be fairly rare. I agree with what everyone has said about having to draw fire all the time for missions like that would be annoying, and I'd hate to see much of that in a Superman game.

The thing that makes a game fun is the challenge and for a game to be challenging, the player has to face failure if he or she screws up or just gets unlucky. In Superman game, Superman has to be able to lose anytime during the game.

For the most part (like 90+%) of it, sure.

That's why I think making Superman totally Invincible and just having him protect NPCs the whole game will get boring.

As I've said a few times, literally no one here said that would be the whole game. We're talking mostly about small moments here, not the main thrust of the game (most of that was a few pages back).

You can have the mook enemies be Brainiac drones or Parademons, so they have weapons that could hurt Superman, but still not be that challenging to defeat.

A lot of them would be, yes - especially if we're talking about the bottled Metropolis idea. But having some "old school" baddies to rofl-stomp every once in a while can be a great way to "feel like Superman" in smaller, simpler ways.

Then have boss characters like Metallo, Parasite, Zod, Brainiac, Darkseid, Lex Luthor with power armor, etc.

Superman can still protect NPCs, but that's not all he should do in the game.

Absolutely - that's almost exactly what we've been saying.

Escort missions suck balls. I don't remember any on the Arkham series or in the Spiderman game. We don't need em.

Actually, doing them this way isn't much of an escort mission in the traditional sense - they sound like fun to me, and I hate escort missions.

[Ascended]

Escort missions suck balls. I don't remember any on the Arkham series or in the Spiderman game. We don't need em.

I think there was one where you had to protect a guy dressed up like Spidey and get him away from Fisk's gangsters? Something like that?

If they did a "fly the NPC to safety" mission for Clark, I think the NPC has to either be capable of taking damage, you have to be capable of dropping them, your own health has to be at risk, or there has to be a timer. Or any combination of the four. NPC takes too much damage and dies, you fail the mission. If you take a missile hit directly to the face you lose your grip and drop your NPC, failing the mission. If you take enough missiles to the face you're knocked out, failing the mission. If you don't get them to the objective (hospital? Lab?) in time, you fail the mission.

Presumably, the average civilian NPC can't take much damage, so for this mission maybe you reduce the % they take and say Clark's shielding them from harm, but he can't cover them completely so they're still taking flesh wounds that could add up to mission failure. Perhaps the average civilian NPC can only survive one or two gun shots, but for this mission they can survive five.

Hmm. Yknow, been thinking about DCUO and Skyrim, and Regan the suicidal girl from All-Star. DCUO has random NPC's around Gotham and Metropolis; suicidal jumpers you either talk down or push, depending on whether you play a hero or villain, people trying to rob ATM's, etc. And Elder Scrolls often have "hidden" mysteries and objectives that aren't part of any mission chain or goal, but if you find all the clues (which aren't highlighted for easy location, you actually gotta look for them) you usually find a cool/fun reward too.

Maybe a Super game needs something like that? Maybe a little kid lost their comic collection, and you'll find them scattered around town (not highlighted in any way so you can easily miss them), maybe you need to use an Elder Scrolls style "social interaction" menu to talk a jumper off a ledge. Stuff that encourages you to use your super senses and leans into stuff like Elder Scrolls' Speech skill tree. You could ignore these things if you want, and if you do it you don't get a super powerful piece of gear, but you do get a fun reward. Maybe if you help enough folks, the neighborhood decorates itself with your colors, balloons, banners, etc? Like Kent Town from the Truth storyline. Maybe vendors in that area give you a steep discount, and that's your reward? Maybe if you do this in each borough you end up with the entire city decorated, and a parade in your honor that wanders around the city?

Granted this would only really work for a sandbox game where you can wander around and waste some time exploring.

[JAK]

I think there was one where you had to protect a guy dressed up like Spidey and get him away from Fisk's gangsters? Something like that?

If they did a "fly the NPC to safety" mission for Clark, I think the NPC has to either be capable of taking damage, you have to be capable of dropping them, your own health has to be at risk, or there has to be a timer. Or any combination of the four. NPC takes too much damage and dies, you fail the mission. If you take a missile hit directly to the face you lose your grip and drop your NPC, failing the mission. If you take enough missiles to the face you're knocked out, failing the mission. If you don't get them to the objective (hospital? Lab?) in time, you fail the mission.

Presumably, the average civilian NPC can't take much damage, so for this mission maybe you reduce the % they take and say Clark's shielding them from harm, but he can't cover them completely so they're still taking flesh wounds that could add up to mission failure. Perhaps the average civilian NPC can only survive one or two gun shots, but for this mission they can survive five.

It would depend on the mission, but I'd say usually a mixture of Superman's health and a timer - and hits drop the timer in the case of "get NPC to a hospital" or something. I don't see the NPC's as taking direct damage, but even Superman getting hit will cause concussive damage, so there is that.

Hmm. Yknow, been thinking about DCUO and Skyrim, and Regan the suicidal girl from All-Star. DCUO has random NPC's around Gotham and Metropolis; suicidal jumpers you either talk down or push, depending on whether you play a hero or villain, people trying to rob ATM's, etc. And Elder Scrolls often have "hidden" mysteries and objectives that aren't part of any mission chain or goal, but if you find all the clues (which aren't highlighted for easy location, you actually gotta look for them) you usually find a cool/fun reward too.

Maybe a Super game needs something like that? Maybe a little kid lost their comic collection, and you'll find them scattered around town (not highlighted in any way so you can easily miss them), maybe you need to use an Elder Scrolls style "social interaction" menu to talk a jumper off a ledge. Stuff that encourages you to use your super senses and leans into stuff like Elder Scrolls' Speech skill tree. You could ignore these things if you want, and if you do it you don't get a super powerful piece of gear, but you do get a fun reward. Maybe if you help enough folks, the neighborhood decorates itself with your colors, balloons, banners, etc? Like Kent Town from the Truth storyline. Maybe vendors in that area give you a steep discount, and that's your reward? Maybe if you do this in each borough you end up with the entire city decorated, and a parade in your honor that wanders around the city?

Granted this would only really work for a sandbox game where you can wander around and waste some time exploring.

Absolutely - in fact, I kinda see these lighter encounters as expanded versions of the DCUO random encounters you mentioned, even if they affect the larger storyline. (stop enough of them and it affects that area's crime rate, which affects reactions to you, etc).

[Vordan]

Something like the conversation boss battles from Deus Ex HR would work pretty well in a Superman game.