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  1. #1
    Astonishing Member mathew101281's Avatar
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    Default Superhero lineages and impact that should still be around in the Legion era.

    Iíve always found it strange that for example Vandal Savage doesnít play a bigger role in Legion lore. The guy has literally been around since the Stone Age a measly 1000 years is nothing. Superman and Flash related characters are represented as they should be, but Wonder Woman or Wonder Woman related characters are strangely missing Did Wonderwoman fail at her mission to manís world? That seems to be the outcome that is implied by the lack of any Wonderwoman lore in the Legions time. In short their are a lot of characters that by their nature should have some kind of impact or representation in Legion Lore but donít.

  2. #2
    Extraordinary Member sifighter's Avatar
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    I think the only time Wonder Woman got referenced is possible weapons, items, and I guess Future State Immortal Wonder Woman where she lived to see the end of the Legion.

    I know Shazam has been represented on the Legion.

    I’d like to see Cyborg continue on, mainly that his computer system kept him in existence and a virtual part of him like Computo survived to the 30 century. Maybe he even gets a sleek new body he can control, like he’s one mind and multiple avatars.

    I’d also like to see Hawkman and Hawkgirl like the end of the Vendetti run. Either they are old or they reincarnated into the future.
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  3. #3
    Extraordinary Member j9ac9k's Avatar
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    The Green Lantern Corps should still be around in some form. Have Rond as a GL.

    There wouldn't still be a Wonder Woman, but Themysciran ideology brought about world peace once they fully rejoined "the world of men" and helped unify the earth under one governing body.

    The Legion already had Thunder as a Shazam legacy. Bring her back, but not necessarily on the team. Perhaps bring that together with the planet of sorcerers - maybe she's that world's protector.

    Either way, I think there should only be a few remnants of modern franchises, (Superman being the most influential on the team) especially earth-based ones and no real 31st century versions of a modern hero unless it really makes sense.
    Last edited by j9ac9k; 09-10-2021 at 07:40 AM.

  4. #4
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    I prefer less, so that the Legion doesn't get bogged down in events occurring in the present day.

    But, logically, all sorts of characters are more or less immortal. Tons of wizard-types. There's no reason why Etrigan/Jason Blood might not still be around, for instance. The Phantom Stranger. Madame Xanadu. The Specter. Dr. Fate (who knows who's wearing the helmet, 1000 years after Kent Nelson died, but *Nabu* should still be around). Red Tornado. Swamp Thing. Deadman. Various immortal villains like Darkseid, R'as al-Ghul, Vandal Savage, Black Adam or Circe. Wonder Woman? We have no idea how long Kryptonians live, or Martians, so even if Kal-El or Jonn Jonzz are long dead, M'gann or Conner or Jon or Kara might be alive still. Shadow users like The Shade appear to be immortal, and would that apply to Nightshade? Are Katar and Shayera still reincarnating in the 30/31st century? Metamorpho? Is Soultaker still around, perhaps even with the soul of Tatsu now *in* the blade, re-united with her husband at last?

    For that matter, even if Diana and Orin, etc. are long-gone, there could still be Amazons and Atlanteans, Thanagarians and Tamaraneans, etc.

    But, there is a fear at editorial that *any* sort of elements from the present-day showing up in the Legion's future, be it a descendant of Superman in Laurel Kent, or a Green Lantern Corps that includes Rond Vidar (and included his father, at one point), somehow invalidates present-day storylines about Superman being 'the Last Son of Krypton' or Hal going nuts and killing off all the other Green Lanterns, despite those events being retconned years later anyway, and the Legion 'future' never being 100% established as locked-in and immutably tied to the 'present'.

    It's utter hogwash, and has led to such terrible nonsense in the past (the entire need to Reboot to get rid of Superboy, for instance) that I don't trust DC editorial to include present-day elements of the DCU in the Legion's future, since they have proven themselves time and time again to be utterly terrible at it.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by sifighter View Post
    I think the only time Wonder Woman got referenced is possible weapons, items, and I guess Future State Immortal Wonder Woman where she lived to see the end of the Legion.

    I know Shazam has been represented on the Legion.

    I’d like to see Cyborg continue on, mainly that his computer system kept him in existence and a virtual part of him like Computo survived to the 30 century. Maybe he even gets a sleek new body he can control, like he’s one mind and multiple avatars.

    I’d also like to see Hawkman and Hawkgirl like the end of the Vendetti run. Either they are old or they reincarnated into the future.
    Sorry, can't with Cyborg. He gets infected with ransomware and no one would pay. In the future of LOSH, he's a brick.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    I prefer less, so that the Legion doesn't get bogged down in events occurring in the present day.
    I'm in the same boat, but for a different reason. I'm all for legacy, but I'm just kind of over every team in the DC Universe becoming a version of the Justice League. Don't get me wrong: I love legacy. I just don't want to see every team become subsumed into the JL franchise. I mean, look at Justice League Dark. They essentially just took the Shadowpact and gave them a new (and IMO, less cool) name.

    I don't need every team to be a reflection of the JLA. If I want to read about Wonder Woman's legacy, I'll read Wonder Girl (and I do). If I wanted Batman's legacy, I'd read some of the 20 Bat-family books on the shelves (and again, I do). The Legion should be allowed to be its own thing.

  7. #7
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j9ac9k View Post

    There wouldn't still be a Wonder Woman, but Themysciran ideology brought about world peace once they fully rejoined "the world of men" and helped unify the earth under one governing body.
    Why wouldn't there be a Wonder Woman?

  8. #8
    Mighty Member Primal Slayer's Avatar
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    I dont think every single superhero needs a lineage in the future but I do have a hard time believing that there wouldnt be a WW or an Amazon (or Amazons) that are still out there fighting the good fight.

    Same with Atlanteans.

    I'd say Vixens totem would still be in play unless it was destroyed somehow.

    Probably some great descendant of Dinah/Ollie.

  9. #9
    Extraordinary Member John Venus's Avatar
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    There has always been this subtext that science will superscede magic eventually so the lack of Gods or magic doesn't bug me that much. I think it was laid out more explicitly in Cooke's New Frontier.

    But there are characters who should have some impact in the far future like Wonder Woman. Also Savage, Xanadu and Phantom Stranger should still be around in the far future if they've made it this far in the current timeline.

    The trouble is, in a shared universe, you don't want to set any character's future in stone. Imagine if the Legion said something definite about Dr Fate, that could easily affect his story in the present day and at some point would contradict it. You can't do a story where Jason Blood is separated from the Demon if a Legion story showed that he was still bonded with said Demon and no writer will be able to wrap up his story.

    Rather than trying to tie into the Legion, I think WW book should try to carve out it's own niche trying to imagine what kind of future WW could create. There are enough sci fi elements even in Marston's run for this to be possible.

  10. #10
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    I have different thoughts on this subject.

    One basic thought is that it's probably not a good idea to have the Legion too connected to the present continuity. I think that's what bogs them down and causes the reboot syndrome. It's probably better if the Legion has as little connection to the present universe as possible. Superboy (Clark Kent) is a special case--they are travelling to a time in his past before he was Superman--and it could be that the Legion's knowledge of this history is fuzzy. Clark forgets most of what he learns about the future--maybe the Legion forget most of what they learn about the past, because of some temporal loophole.

    Another thought is based on the Superman of 2965. This is curious to me, because the same people were involved with this concept and the Legion at the time--Edmond Hamilton, Curt Swan, George Klein, Mort Weisinger. It's weird that they would introduce a Superman that exists in the exact same year as the Legion and therefore cancels them out. Either one or the other has to be true. The only way to resolve this paradox is to say they exist in two alternate timelines. But WHAT IF they co-exist in the same timeline? Logic says there should be thousands (maybe millions) of people related to Superman, but there only seems to be this one family line on Earth in 2965. So I suggest that there's a secret history of what happened to Superman family descendents and other super-hero lineages and that most of them left the Earth for political and cultural reasons, to establish colonies on other planets (a darker possibility is a mass genocide that killed off billions of supers and metas).

    Another thought is that everything we see in the Legion stories is concocted for the entertainment of people in the distant future--or for an Opti-Screen show on Thraxx in another dimension. It's a manufactured reality of some sort.

    And my final thought is that there should be this dark age between current continuity and the Legion. In this dark age anything could have happened. The Legion are far on one side of that dark age and what they think they know--the presumed descendents they meet--is all from unreliable narrators.
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  11. #11
    Fantastic Member ducklord's Avatar
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    Like a lot of you, I'm generally of the opinion that the Legion should Be It's Own Thing, and (time travelling Superboys/Supergirls aside) not be beholden to the legacies of various current-day heroes.

    That said, as a purely intellectual exercise, it's fun to contemplate the legacies of various characters.

    Consider the various legacies as presented over the years in the Legion:
    Superman - Pre-Flashpoint, besides his enduring influence on the Legion, we also had Laurel Kent (who turned out to be a Manhunter robot), and Dev-Em (who was later retconned into, um, something non-Kryptoninan). The Bendis Legion has introduced New Krypton, and retconned Mon-El into being a Kryptonian.

    Batman - Pre-Flashpoint I think the only Bat-legacy we ever saw was that PI descendant of Batman that got murdered. Post-Flashpoint we got a good look at New Gotham.

    Wonder Woman - I don't think the Amazons or Wonder Woman have ever been talked up in the Legion. Which is weird, them being immortal and all. Maybe the whole lot of them went away (as is their wont)

    Flash - Iris Allen is FROM the future, and has occasionally popped up, along with the Tornado Twins and XS. The Bendis Legion is sans speedsters, though (I think).

    Green Lantern - The GLC has had a minor presence in the Legion from the days of Levitz onward. Initially, it was revealed that the Corps was banned from Earth. Then Rond Vidar was revealed to be a GL. A reboot or two later the GLC turned out to be defunct in the future. And in the Bendis Legion something funky is going on with the so-called Gold Lanterns. So the GLC is always out there somewhere, if not very present.

    J'Onn J'Onzz - In one continuity he almost *was* RJ Brande. And he survived until the Legion's time.

    Green Arrow - He descendant was a Legion tour guide (with distinctive beard) that almost got killed the android that hunted down JLA descendants.

    Hawkman - the Thanagarian hawk police have occasionally popped up in the Legion, so they're still around.

    Aquaman - Atlantis and Aquaman, to the best of my knowledge, never impacted the Legion until Bendis's version, which made his trident an important McGuffin.

    Dr. Fate finally showed up in a big way during the Bendis Legion.

    Shazam's legacy is represented by Thunder, who's weirdly from way farther in the future.

    Amethyst's legacy is all tied up in Mordru and the White Witch, sometimes.

    An H-Dial fell into the hands of (sigh) Lori Manning.

    Any others?

  12. #12
    Extraordinary Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    I have different thoughts on this subject.

    One basic thought is that it's probably not a good idea to have the Legion too connected to the present continuity. I think that's what bogs them down and causes the reboot syndrome. It's probably better if the Legion has as little connection to the present universe as possible. Superboy (Clark Kent) is a special case--they are travelling to a time in his past before he was Superman--and it could be that the Legion's knowledge of this history is fuzzy. Clark forgets most of what he learns about the future--maybe the Legion forget most of what they learn about the past, because of some temporal loophole.

    Another thought is based on the Superman of 2965. This is curious to me, because the same people were involved with this concept and the Legion at the time--Edmond Hamilton, Curt Swan, George Klein, Mort Weisinger. It's weird that they would introduce a Superman that exists in the exact same year as the Legion and therefore cancels them out. Either one or the other has to be true. The only way to resolve this paradox is to say they exist in two alternate timelines. But WHAT IF they co-exist in the same timeline? Logic says there should be thousands (maybe millions) of people related to Superman, but there only seems to be this one family line on Earth in 2965. So I suggest that there's a secret history of what happened to Superman family descendents and other super-hero lineages and that most of them left the Earth for political and cultural reasons, to establish colonies on other planets (a darker possibility is a mass genocide that killed off billions of supers and metas).

    Another thought is that everything we see in the Legion stories is concocted for the entertainment of people in the distant future--or for an Opti-Screen show on Thraxx in another dimension. It's a manufactured reality of some sort.

    And my final thought is that there should be this dark age between current continuity and the Legion. In this dark age anything could have happened. The Legion are far on one side of that dark age and what they think they know--the presumed descendents they meet--is all from unreliable narrators.

    I think the only way to reconcile the multiple Legions and their connection to the present is to reveal that all time lines are alternate futures. When you travel back or forward in time, you are just as likely to land in an alternate timeline as you are to your own timeline. Thus, even the Legion can't be sure that Superboy is the same Superboy who inspired the Legion and Superman can't be sure that the future in the Legion is the actual future of his own timeline. The various Legion's from multiple timelines still exist.

  13. #13
    Original CBR member Jabare's Avatar
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  14. #14
    Invincible Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ducklord View Post
    Flash - Iris Allen is FROM the future, and has occasionally popped up, along with the Tornado Twins and XS. The Bendis Legion is sans speedsters, though (I think).
    Yeah, no Flash legacies in the current Legion, which is odd, as Bendis was already using Impulse in Young Justice when he started LOSH. If Bart's back, then wouldn't his cousin XS be back too? The timeline changes shouldn't affect her because she has a direct link to the present day through Barry and Iris, and we know she's back in existence because she appeared with the rest of the Flash family in Williamson's last Flash arc Finish Line. So it strikes me as odd that XS wasn't part of this version of the Legion.
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  15. #15
    Traveler of omniverses Thor-Ul's Avatar
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    Answering the OP:Well, the Legion originally was an spin off book of Superman/Supermboy and mostly focused on interactions with that side of the DC universe. Other interactions were few and small. Only after the Crisis, the interaction with other characters grew. If Vnadal Savage had not appeared, it has not given the chance. Or could be he just got boring of earth and in 1000 years in the future he is conquering new worlds, oppressing new life and new civilizations and boldly go where no caveman has gone before.

    Even when the concept of legacy and mantle is interesting to see, I also prefer to see the less possible in the Legion era. The less, the better. Or if they are there, they should interact the less possible with the Legion. I mean, when a character from present day appears or when a character frelated to a legacy appear, it was an event to see them in the Legion time.

    There is also the problem of what would be the final destiny of such character, if he/she appears alive in the future. It sets a future for a character, something than not everybody would agree on. I prefer that to be keep in the mystery. I remember than the DnA Legion made R'as Al Gul appear, but at the same time, made his presence very ambigous about who he was really and what could had happened to him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Green Goblin of Sector 2814 View Post
    I'm in the same boat, but for a different reason. I'm all for legacy, but I'm just kind of over every team in the DC Universe becoming a version of the Justice League. Don't get me wrong: I love legacy. I just don't want to see every team become subsumed into the JL franchise. I mean, look at Justice League Dark. They essentially just took the Shadowpact and gave them a new (and IMO, less cool) name.

    I don't need every team to be a reflection of the JLA. If I want to read about Wonder Woman's legacy, I'll read Wonder Girl (and I do). If I wanted Batman's legacy, I'd read some of the 20 Bat-family books on the shelves (and again, I do). The Legion should be allowed to be its own thing.
    That is an opinion I share. Or you could use those concepts in a different way. I liked how Johns used the Justice League name for his villians, for example.
    Last edited by Thor-Ul; 09-10-2021 at 02:01 PM.
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