View Poll Results: Should pop culture talk about current issues?

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  • Yes

    19 50.00%
  • No

    7 18.42%
  • Depends on well they do it

    10 26.32%
  • Who cares? We have the news!

    2 5.26%
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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by babyblob View Post
    I mean that is the thing. There has always been an undercurrent of politics. From the mentioned Xmen and the metaphor, to Golden Age Superman going after war profiteers, gambling dens ect.., Captian America, human Torch, And Namor going after Germany and Japan (Though the stories with the Japanese were badly racist) like you mentioned Black Panther has not only a black superhero but the head of an advanced African Nation, Spiderman had joe Robertson as an Editor of a major Newspaper and that was one of Marvel's biggest titles even before Robertson there were black people in the comic. Kind of snuck into the back round, and not just as gang members or criminals, they were cops and students at Peter's college. There was the issue rights after gwens dad died and Bullet was running for DA and he was very racist and they touched on that in the arc.
    Then there was the Superman issue where Lois used a machine to turn black for 24 hours. A well meaning but poorly handled attempt at handling Racism. The Spiderman drug issues then the Green lantern/Green Arrow Speedy drug issue, heck a lot of stories in the Green Arrow/Green Lantern stories were political.

    So people who say politics in comics is a new thing have not been paying attention while not in your face and super woke comics have always had a hand in politics.
    Conversely though, Iron man's first origin is about him making weapons to fight the Viet Cong ( later issues have Nikita Khrushchev showing up). Hulk's first origin is Bruce Banner building an atomic bomb so the US can fight the Russians. There's an Avengers story that blames US racism on communists. A later Avengers comic mocks feminism. There's an X-Men comic where Rogue blows a kiss to Reagan. Sue Richards dismissing feminism. Then there's GI Joe, the 80-90's version of Punisher, and any number of comics that were implicitly pro-military or chauvanistic. Then there's straight up war propaganda in 40's. So yeah, politics were always there, but I wouldn't say they were always so-called "woke".
    Last edited by ed2962; 09-17-2021 at 06:50 PM.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by babyblob View Post
    Like I said in my first post people dont want to see Bruce giving speeches or cutting checks for social programs. that would be too political and boring for most. They want him in the batsuit beating bad guys. Even in the penthouse time after Dick left for college and he closed the Batcave he did have that foundation that helped people but most of the stories where people came to him for help ended up with him in the bat suit righting a wrong or something as opposed to him paying a single mothers rent.

    So politics are fine if it is done slowly and a bit sneaky because for years that is how it has always been and these people bitching about woke comics have been very much fine with those stories. But the second Iceman comes out as gay or there is a Muslim Ms Marvel or Captain America dares question the American dream people lose their minds.
    I dunno...I'd argue that much of the time the politics in those old stories whether they were conservative or liberal were upfront and on the nose. Fans either liked it or didn't and just moved on. The difference now is that people can make money on fake outrage.

    Gerry Conway said something like, and I'm para-phrasing, "Yeah, we tried to put more women and minorities in comics decades ago and even though looking back we were kind of clumsy about how we did it, we got little push back. It's weird seeing how upset some guys get about diversity now days."

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    Conversely though, Iron man's first origin is about him making weapons to fight the Viet Cong ( later issues have Nikita Khrushchev showing up). Hulk's first origin is Bruce Banner building an atomic bomb so the US can fight the Russians. There's an Avengers story that blames US racism on communists. A later Avengers comic mocks feminism. There's an X-Men comic where Rogue blows a kiss to Reagan. Sue Richards dismissing feminism. Then there's GI Joe, the 80-90's version of Punisher, and any number of comics that were implicitly pro-military or chauvanistic. Then there's straight up war propaganda in 40's. So yeah, politics were always there, but I wouldn't say they were always so-called "woke".
    No for sure not always woke. I was giving the positive examples. (Well the bullet arc was not positive since his character was so bad, but Robertson and JJ reaction to him was handled well.) But I do see what you mean about the darker less woke side. Thank you for pointing those out because I didnt think of them as much. But I did enjoy the scene with Rogue blowing a kiss to Regan. not sure why just oiked it.
    Last edited by babyblob; 09-17-2021 at 07:31 PM.
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    I dunno...I'd argue that much of the time the politics in those old stories whether they were conservative or liberal were upfront and on the nose. Fans either liked it or didn't and just moved on. The difference now is that people can make money on fake outrage.

    Gerry Conway said something like, and I'm para-phrasing, "Yeah, we tried to put more women and minorities in comics decades ago and even though looking back we were kind of clumsy about how we did it, we got little push back. It's weird seeing how upset some guys get about diversity now days."
    I would say The Golden Age Superman they for sure were out there. And they were more up front in the Green Arrow/Green lantern stories. But 60s marvel was not as up front about it. I mean with the Blank Panther Fantastic Four story they never made an issue of Black Panther being black. he was just a badass that handled the FF in a fight, was brave and heroic who just happened to a king of an African nation. I mean Reed was amazed at the nation being so advanced but that was really all that was said on that front.
    Last edited by babyblob; 09-17-2021 at 07:32 PM.
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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by babyblob View Post
    No for sure not always woke. I was giving the positive examples. (Well the bullet arc was not positive since his character was so bad, but Robertson and JJ reaction to him was handled well.) But I do see what you mean about the darker less woke side. Thank you for pointing those out because I didn't think of them as much. But I did enjoy the scene with Rogue blowing a kiss to Regan. not sure why just oiked it.
    Well, the Rogue thing was pretty funny...it's in character for her and probably would have worked with any famous person of the time. Thing is I'm old enuff to remember when a lot of people felt the same way about Reagan then as do some folks feel about Trump now. He was a very controversial figure yet he guest starred in tons of comics, and most of the time he was presented as a respected person. A so-called "woke" person of the time might not have written that scene the same way.

    There's probably better examples Reagan worship I could have brought up, but that was the first thing that came to mind ( probably cuz I like that issue for tons of other reason that probably could be considered progressive i.e. Storm becoming the leader of the X-Men, Scott's wife telling him to get a job... ).

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by babyblob View Post
    I would say The Golden Age Superman they for sure were out there. And they were more up front in the Green Arrow/Green lantern stories. But 60s marvel was not as up front about it. I mean with the Blank Panther Fantastic Four story they never made an issue of Black Panther being black. he was just a badass that handled the FF in a fight, was brave and heroic who just happened to a king of an African nation. I mean Reed was amazed at the nation being so advanced but that was really all that was said on that front.
    I say a time when 60's Marvel was subtle was bringing in the Robinsons in Spiderman and they were just there. Stan has said that one of his favorite stories was a Daredevil comic where Matt befriends a Viet Nam vet, no one the story mentions that he was black until the last page.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero Hunter View Post
    It depends on how it's done. If it's done well and not beating you over the head then sure. The problem is especially in comics is most writers can't do that. Comic writers are left leaning for the most part with a lot being on the extreme side of the left. Those are usually the ones I just can't get into because they are the ones that hit you right in the face with their extreme view of the issue which is a major turn off. When the main point of their story is just to get them talked about in the press instead of telling a good story it just comes off as so fake. That and when a character is changed to fit their narative instead of the one the character has had for decades usually just comes off as pandering too.
    I remember a Georges Lucas quote where he said that it was more effective not to deal with a subject directly…

    I think that most authors who really want to talk about social issues don’t do it in a subtle manner, which puts off people who are just looking for pleasant entertainment. Sadly, for them, subtlety seems to be a synonym of a lack of courage…
    “Strength is the lot of but a few privileged men; but austere perseverance, harsh and continuous, may be employed by the smallest of us and rarely fails of its purpose, for its silent power grows irresistibly greater with time.” Goethe

  8. #38
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    Should entertainment talk politics, IF IT WANTS? Yes.
    Should entertainment feel obligated to talk politics? No.

    And as a side note: in general, in discussions like these, I always find "as long as it's done well" an odd disclaimer. OF COURSE it has to be done well, otherwise it's just bad, regardless of what's being done. "Do you want to see a new Star Wars / oh, as long as it's done well." Come on, that goes without saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by babyblob View Post
    Like The Xmen representing minorities and gays. I never got into that message, Some people take that from it. As a Bi Man I could care less. I see a guy with magnetic powers try and take over the world and get stopped by people, with crazy powers
    I think this is a bit simplistic, and over-exaggerated (you're smart enough to see more than than). To respond with an exaggeration in kind, that's like me saying "West Wing is just about impossibly informed beautiful people in suits, walking down corridors, exchanging quippy one-liners as they drink coffee."
    Last edited by Kieran_Frost; 09-20-2021 at 01:11 PM.
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  9. #39
    Ultimate Member babyblob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    I think this is a bit simplistic, and over-exaggerated (you're smart enough to see more than than). To respond with an exaggeration in kind, that's like me saying "West Wing is just about impossibly informed beautiful people in suits, walking down corridors, exchanging quippy one-liners as they drink coffee."
    There is a difference. When you watch West Wing you know going in it is political. With the Xmen Yea there were the metaphors and such and yes I was and am smart enough to see it. I just didnt care. When I read comics I dont try and find deeper meaning in it. If gay/trans, or POC find a deeper meaning that helps them that is great and I am happy for them. I am happy they found something that helps them in their struggles. What helps me in my struggles is being entertained and looking for an escape. So I never tried hard to think about the metaphors,

    When I read my first Black Panther comic I didnt think "Oh man great A POC is getting a chance to shine." I thought "Man this dude is great! Fought the FF to a stand still and he has cool powers and an awesome place to live." Now That I am older I think of the importance of Black Panther but to be honest that is secondary and not why I enjoy him as a hero.

    Joe Robertson a great supporting character. Not a great support black character just a great supporting character. I love Ms marvel. I think it is great that there is Muslim female strong character that there is huge focus on. But at the end of the day she is a funny, brave, loyal, fan girl hero with fun powers and a fun story that is what I focus on.

    That is all I look for in my stories. As I said if people want to focus on other things and find deeper meaning Great good for them, I wont bash them or be mad it is what they need. It is not what I need.
    Last edited by babyblob; 09-20-2021 at 01:56 PM.
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  10. #40
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    Shouldn't be required, but not outright shunned either (hazing by critics should be enough).
    Last edited by Ragged Maw; 09-20-2021 at 02:19 PM.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by babyblob View Post
    When I read my first Black Panther comic I didnt think "Oh man great A POC is getting a chance to shine." I thought "Man this dude is great! Fought the FF to a stand still and he has cool powers and an awesome place to live." Now That I am older I think of the importance of Black Panther but to be honest that is secondary and not why I enjoy him as a hero.
    The same. When I first read stories with Black Panther in them, I was little enough to not think about any political implications at all… As well as with Falcon, Spider-man’s pal.

    It just felt totally normal for me. It’s comics, the authors could imagine anything. I read the stories for that, to be entertained, to be moved, to think about big questions, life, death… (I think in the past the writers wrote the world they wanted to exist, not the world we are living in…)

    I regret a bit this way to look at comics, to be able to look at them more a bit more naively. But it depends on a lot about the authors and the numbers of layers, he or she is able to put in his/her stories. The best authors can write with at least two layers: one for adults and one for children…
    “Strength is the lot of but a few privileged men; but austere perseverance, harsh and continuous, may be employed by the smallest of us and rarely fails of its purpose, for its silent power grows irresistibly greater with time.” Goethe

  12. #42
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    To keep them somewhat grounded in reality I would say yes. But, since politics is in everything, it's kind of unavoidable.

  13. #43
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    I like it when they have social issues. I don't mind politics as long as it's balanced. Last Man Standing poked fun at both the left and the right.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed2962 View Post
    I say a time when 60's Marvel was subtle was bringing in the Robinsons in Spiderman and they were just there. Stan has said that one of his favorite stories was a Daredevil comic where Matt befriends a Viet Nam vet, no one the story mentions that he was black until the last page.
    I think Stan was pretty smart in the subtle way he had African Americans in his books even before Robertson. There would be a black person in the back round of a Spiderman comic. And that black person would be a police officer a respected member of society, there would be African American kids on Peter's Campus. he would have Black people in the back round and worked hos way up to giving them speaking roles and characters like Robertson or Black Panther.
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  15. #45
    Astonishing Member TheRay's Avatar
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    The discussions surrounding the media could always turn political anyway just through rational discourse. There's no reason why it can't be depicted as such.

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