Hawkeye on Disney+

[Donald]

IIRC the women at the end of Black Widow weren't all the Widows in the world. Nat downloaded the locations of the rest and they were going to deprogram them one by one. With the blip it's not unreasonable to think there's still some bad Widows out there.

[anyajenkins]

I’m guessing Jack’s ‘aphorisms’ are hints that he’s Russian (with the tracksuits) English isn’t his first language.

[Adam Allen]

IIRC the women at the end of Black Widow weren't all the Widows in the world. Nat downloaded the locations of the rest and they were going to deprogram them one by one. With the blip it's not unreasonable to think there's still some bad Widows out there.

I definitely feel like the continuity of Natasha's storyline and her relationships with the other characters is kind of screwed up by the release order of the movies, because while the immediate need to deal with Thanos in Infinity War and undoing the snap in Endgame would be reasons she wouldn't bring up what happened in Black Widow, there was also plenty of downtime between those two major continuity points. I just mean, you'd kind of think her re-connecting with her "family," having dismantled a worldwide spy/assassination network -- and, y'know, the fact that there were (hundreds) of operatives still out there at large, who could be either a great threat or a great resource ... you know, you'd think she might mention it?

I mean, if Black Widow had come out prior to Endgame, would that early scene with her and Cap, where she said she had nothing "before this" still make sense? I mean, it's a great scene, and I love all of those early scenes of how the remaining heroes were dealing with the loss, but I think the conclusion of Black Widow kind of makes Nat's portrayal at that point seem inconsistent. Like, her sister is showing up to avenge her in Hawkeye, but couldn't be bothered to reach out, while Nat was carrying the weight of the world, from the beginning of the movie?

Meh, I suppose it's a pointless complaint, I just kind of hate when real-world stuff messes up the consistency in the continuity of ongoing stories!

[chicago_bastard]

I definitely feel like the continuity of Natasha's storyline and her relationships with the other characters is kind of screwed up by the release order of the movies, because while the immediate need to deal with Thanos in Infinity War and undoing the snap in Endgame would be reasons she wouldn't bring up what happened in Black Widow, there was also plenty of downtime between those two major continuity points. I just mean, you'd kind of think her re-connecting with her "family," having dismantled a worldwide spy/assassination network -- and, y'know, the fact that there were (hundreds) of operatives still out there at large, who could be either a great threat or a great resource ... you know, you'd think she might mention it?

Infinity War and Endgame were clearly made without any knowledge of what would happen in the Black Widow movie so that's obviously the reason for these supposed inconsistencies. Anyway, I'd still say it's not unreasonable to think that Natasha wouldn't tell anyone about these things as she was always portrayed as a reserved and close-lipped character.

The only one she was close enough to tell him such things was Clint, but we can assume that she didn't see him at all between Civil War and when she finds him in Japan in Endgame. Up to Infinity War she was a fugitive, so showing up at Barton's house would have been a risk because Ross would clearly have it monitored. And when the snap happened Clint presumably went on his Ronin campaign immediately so they likely didn't see each other during the five years. The planning of the time heist doesn't seem as the right time to bring up personal stories. I don't know how long the two of them were travelling to Vormir though, if that journey took some time it would be reasonable to assume she should have told the story to Clint then. Especially as he even mentioned the old Budapest story again.

I mean, if Black Widow had come out prior to Endgame, would that early scene with her and Cap, where she said she had nothing "before this" still make sense? I mean, it's a great scene, and I love all of those early scenes of how the remaining heroes were dealing with the loss, but I think the conclusion of Black Widow kind of makes Nat's portrayal at that point seem inconsistent.

That statement of her isn't wrong though. After the dissolution of her family in 1995 she never had contact with them again and convinced herself that it wasn't real, so saying that she had nothing prior to becoming an Avenger in 2012 makes sense because the reconciliation with her first family happened only in 2016.

Like, her sister is showing up to avenge her in Hawkeye, but couldn't be bothered to reach out, while Nat was carrying the weight of the world, from the beginning of the movie?

I'm pretty sure that Yelena was a victim of Thanos' snap and therefore couldn't have reached out to Nat at that time.

If Yelena weren't snapped that would make her 35 years old in Hawkeye. As Florence Pugh is 25 that would seem an odd casting choice. Being a victim of the snap brings the character five years closer to the actor's real age.

[Donald]

... you know, you'd think she might mention it?!

To who? Black Widow takes place right after Civil War. Nat tasered T'Challa and let Cap & Bucky go, so she on the outs with the US government and Wakanda. At end of BW it sounds like she's going to break team Cap out putting her further in the hole.

If she told the U.S. about the freed Widows and the still controlled ones, I think the government would have tried to control or eliminate them. She could have tried Wakanda, but she couldn't be sure how that would go.

Nat would have been concentrating on keeping herself out of jail and helping the Widows.

[Adam Allen]

To who? Black Widow takes place right after Civil War. Nat tasered T'Challa and let Cap & Bucky go, so she on the outs with the US government and Wakanda. At end of BW it sounds like she's going to break team Cap out putting her further in the hole.

If she told the U.S. about the freed Widows and the still controlled ones, I think the government would have tried to control or eliminate them. She could have tried Wakanda, but she couldn't be sure how that would go.

Nat would have been concentrating on keeping herself out of jail and helping the Widows.

To the Avengers. Seeing as they were fugitives before Infinity War, it's fine if we want to say they couldn't do anything before that. And yeah, with Infinity War and its ending (and the beginning of Endgame, which starts immediately after), not a lot of opportunity to go finding loose Widows. But after they took out Thanos, five years of reorganizing the world, and nothing? Not a mention of any of that, to anyone? No concern for what the Widows might be up to, or what might be happening to them?

I mean, whatever -- we can definitely come up with hand-waves to excuse inconsistencies, but seriously, it's not as if there is anything at all in Infinity War and Endgame to suggest they had any idea of what was going to happen in Black Widow. Her solo movie didn't throw any huge wrenches into what they've done since those two movies, and I'm sure retcons can be used to suggest she didn't completely forget about her family or the Widows after the end of her movie ... just saying, it would have been nice if they could have bothered to release her movie in the order it was supposed to happen, so there wouldn't be any need to retcon.

But hey, if you don't have any problem with it, cool! Opinions, they do vary.

[Immortal Weapon]

To the Avengers. Seeing as they were fugitives before Infinity War, it's fine if we want to say they couldn't do anything before that. And yeah, with Infinity War and its ending (and the beginning of Endgame, which starts immediately after), not a lot of opportunity to go finding loose Widows. But after they took out Thanos, five years of reorganizing the world, and nothing? Not a mention of any of that, to anyone? No concern for what the Widows might be up to, or what might be happening to them?

I mean, whatever -- we can definitely come up with hand-waves to excuse inconsistencies, but seriously, it's not as if there is anything at all in Infinity War and Endgame to suggest they had any idea of what was going to happen in Black Widow. Her solo movie didn't throw any huge wrenches into what they've done since those two movies, and I'm sure retcons can be used to suggest she didn't completely forget about her family or the Widows after the end of her movie ... just saying, it would have been nice if they could have bothered to release her movie in the order it was supposed to happen, so there wouldn't be any need to retcon.

But hey, if you don't have any problem with it, cool! Opinions, they do vary.

What would have Avengers done? Cap and Sam were the only ones of the fugitives that were still active. Wanda and Vision were laying low, Scott and Clint took pled deals to go under house arrest so they can be with their families. They weren't in a position to help a group of displaced spies.

[Adam Allen]

What would have Avengers done? Cap and Sam were the only ones of the fugitives that were still active. Wanda and Vision were laying low, Scott and Clint took pled deals to go under house arrest so they can be with their families. They weren't in a position to help a group of displaced spies.

Yeah, kind of suggested that in the second sentence of the post you're replying to. Honestly, my whole point is that I enjoyed the way Black Widow was portrayed in Endgame, and I enjoyed the added depth they gave the character in her solo movie, so I find it a little frustrating that the emotional beats don't quite perfectly fit together, if you think of them in the order they're supposed to have happened.

But really, it's not something I'm trying to argue about. If it all seems perfectly consistent to you, it's all good. Seems less so to me, but like I already said, opinions vary.

[Donald]

We may be overthinking things as well. After all the Widows were freed and the dust settled, some of them may have decided to remain assassins. It's what they know and are good at. Clint did say some hired a "Black Widow Assassin", so maybe he need to specify assassin since there are several groups now.

[chicago_bastard]

Freeing the Widows was about giving them their own free will back. If they decided to be assassins by their own choice, then so be it from Natasha's point of view, for her it was important that they would be able to choose. Yeah, some of them may have decided to stay killers but a couple of Black Widows running around as freelance assassins is hardly an Avengers level threat so I don't see why Nat should have had the Avengers involved, especially when they had much bigger fish to fry.

[godisawesome]

Infinity War and Endgame were clearly made without any knowledge of what would happen in the Black Widow movie so that's obviously the reason for these supposed inconsistencies. Anyway, I'd still say it's not unreasonable to think that Natasha wouldn't tell anyone about these things as she was always portrayed as a reserved and close-lipped character.

The only one she was close enough to tell him such things was Clint, but we can assume that she didn't see him at all between Civil War and when she finds him in Japan in Endgame. Up to Infinity War she was a fugitive, so showing up at Barton's house would have been a risk because Ross would clearly have it monitored. And when the snap happened Clint presumably went on his Ronin campaign immediately so they likely didn't see each other during the five years. The planning of the time heist doesn't seem as the right time to bring up personal stories. I don't know how long the two of them were travelling to Vormir though, if that journey took some time it would be reasonable to assume she should have told the story to Clint then. Especially as he even mentioned the old Budapest story again.



That statement of her isn't wrong though. After the dissolution of her family in 1995 she never had contact with them again and convinced herself that it wasn't real, so saying that she had nothing prior to becoming an Avenger in 2012 makes sense because the reconciliation with her first family happened only in 2016.



I'm pretty sure that Yelena was a victim of Thanos' snap and therefore couldn't have reached out to Nat at that time.

If Yelena weren't snapped that would make her 35 years old in Hawkeye. As Florence Pugh is 25 that would seem an odd casting choice. Being a victim of the snap brings the character five years closer to the actor's real age.

Yelena being a victim of the Snap would add even more tragedy and understandable issues to her grieving her sister - just like Monica losing her mother was a heavy weight emotional blow, imagine being Yelena, finding out you died, then upon coming back discovering that your sister literally died for that… and having someone else telling you that she died by the hands of her best friend.

[Adam Allen]

Freeing the Widows was about giving them their own free will back. If they decided to be assassins by their own choice, then so be it from Natasha's point of view, for her it was important that they would be able to choose. Yeah, some of them may have decided to stay killers but a couple of Black Widows running around as freelance assassins is hardly an Avengers level threat so I don't see why Nat should have had the Avengers involved, especially when they had much bigger fish to fry.

It's not like I'm saying I would have expected some big detour of the narrative to go hunting rogue Widows during Endgame or Infinity War -- those movies are long enough as is, and as you point out, the stakes they were dealing with were the highest of any we have seen yet, so having them chasing random assassins (or seeking out lost ex-assassins) would have been a bizarre turn for the narrative. However, if Black Widow had come out before Infinity War, they could have easily included at least a single scene ... maybe during the flight to Vormir, for instance ... where Natasha just shares with someone that the "red in her ledger" she'd mentLioned in earlier movies had been resolved, that she'd reconnected with the family she'd loved as a child, that, I don't know, there's something like a hundred random previously mind-controlled super assassins out there in the world, so when there is time, somebody might want to think about possibly looking into that.

Like, if I recall, Yelena, Red Guardian and whatever the mom's name was, were supposed to go looking for all those lost assassins, at the end of the movie. If Black Widow had come out before Infinity War, then some kind of note about what they were doing post-snap might have easily been included. Did all three of them get snapped out of existence? Would definitely have added to the loss Natasha was experiencing at the start of Endgame. If they didn't, then again, you'd think some kind of note of if she'd been in contact with them that whole five years might have been included.

I mean, we can only conjecture about it now, because the fact is that they didn't make Black Widow until after Endgame, and I feel like the lack of continuity there shows.

But hey, apparently I'm the only one who thinks so, so fair enough.

Different topic, on the show ... I mean, I'm enjoying it well enough, but it has a much less fun tone to it than the dual-Hawkeye books, that I have read. Those were much more light-hearted. They did try to include some of that with the ridiculousness of the Tracksuits as a villain group, but I suppose the MCU overall at this point is kind of a gloomy place ... and of course, comics Clint and MCU Clint are pretty different too, so there's no way they could have translated it perfectly. More's the pity though, because I really enjoyed those books!

[chicago_bastard]

It's not like I'm saying I would have expected some big detour of the narrative to go hunting rogue Widows during Endgame or Infinity War -- those movies are long enough as is, and as you point out, the stakes they were dealing with were the highest of any we have seen yet, so having them chasing random assassins (or seeking out lost ex-assassins) would have been a bizarre turn for the narrative. However, if Black Widow had come out before Infinity War, they could have easily included at least a single scene ... maybe during the flight to Vormir, for instance ... where Natasha just shares with someone that the "red in her ledger" she'd mentLioned in earlier movies had been resolved, that she'd reconnected with the family she'd loved as a child, that, I don't know, there's something like a hundred random previously mind-controlled super assassins out there in the world, so when there is time, somebody might want to think about possibly looking into that.

Like, if I recall, Yelena, Red Guardian and whatever the mom's name was, were supposed to go looking for all those lost assassins, at the end of the movie. If Black Widow had come out before Infinity War, then some kind of note about what they were doing post-snap might have easily been included. Did all three of them get snapped out of existence? Would definitely have added to the loss Natasha was experiencing at the start of Endgame. If they didn't, then again, you'd think some kind of note of if she'd been in contact with them that whole five years might have been included.

I mean, we can only conjecture about it now, because the fact is that they didn't make Black Widow until after Endgame, and I feel like the lack of continuity there shows.

But hey, apparently I'm the only one who thinks so, so fair enough.

Different topic, on the show ... I mean, I'm enjoying it well enough, but it has a much less fun tone to it than the dual-Hawkeye books, that I have read. Those were much more light-hearted. They did try to include some of that with the ridiculousness of the Tracksuits as a villain group, but I suppose the MCU overall at this point is kind of a gloomy place ... and of course, comics Clint and MCU Clint are pretty different too, so there's no way they could have translated it perfectly. More's the pity though, because I really enjoyed those books!

I see your point but let's not pretend that the MCU always tied up loose ends from solo movies in the big team movies even when they were released in the correct order. At the end of Doctor Strange a mighty sorcerer called Mordo went rogue and we must assume he is still running around, yet he wasn't addressed ever again since then. In the last scene of Ant-Man and the Wasp Scott tried to get Pym particles for Ghost because she couldn't survive without them. This never got addressed since then so we have no idea if Ghost is dead now or if she's still alive, if she's stayed on the good side or if she went back to being a villain because she's disappointed by Scott not bringing her the Pym particles. It's likely that these things will get addressed in the upcoming solo movies of Strange and Ant-Man/Wasp but likewise it's possible that the Widow situation will be addressed in Yelena's next project. I mean it was her who went on to free them anyway, not Natasha.

[CosmiComic]

Hasn't Ghost been rumored to return?

[Vic Vega]

Hasn't Ghost been rumored to return?

Ghost is likely going to end up on whatever team Val Fontaine (from the BW End credits scene) is building.

I imagine they will get someone to pilot the Iron Patriot suit for the 4th member (the suits that Rhodey piloted before his injury likely can't be used by him now).