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  1. #166
    The Best There Is Wolverine12's Avatar
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    Kind of a weird issue to me. Mags was all over the place and him admitting to the murder and begging the Avengers to take him away came out of nowhere. I get he did it to distract them from something but why beat up the Avengers first and then turn yourself in. The tour part I thought was just bad writing, not that they gave the Avengers a tour but the whole ethical dilemma with Jean using her powers was honestly useless. Not only do I think Jean would’ve used her powers for the sake of Krakoa all they needed to do was say something about needing to turn around because that area is off limits. Problem solved no ethical compromise.

    On the positive side I’m intrigued by the mystery so far and want to see the answers to the questions we all have. Hopefully it’s not a let down.
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  2. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolverine12 View Post
    The tour part I thought was just bad writing, not that they gave the Avengers a tour but the whole ethical dilemma with Jean using her powers was honestly useless. Not only do I think Jean would’ve used her powers for the sake of Krakoa all they needed to do was say something about needing to turn around because that area is off limits. Problem solved no ethical compromise...
    Do you really think that she would have done that to decades-old friends she was just comforting and mourning with? I agree about the tour part and manufactured ethical dilemma being useless. While I think it was in character, I also think Leah needed to get Emma in there somehow, lol. Still, I give her credit for manipulating the situation just enough to serve her fave and not nerf Jean. She was clever about it. Had I written it, though, Jean would have known to start cloaking the minute they mentioned the tour while continuing to hug Vision and Wasp. My girl is a multitasker.

    There would have been no need for a mindwipe because they wouldn't have gotten to see anything.

  3. #168
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    They are hiding the hatchery because they want to keep resurrection a secret, while one of their guides is Synch who was dead for a long time.

  4. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    Do you really think that she would have done that to decades-old friends she was just comforting and mourning with? I agree about the tour part and manufactured ethical dilemma being useless. While I think it was in character, I also think Leah needed to get Emma in there somehow, lol. Still, I give her credit for manipulating the situation just enough to serve her fave and not nerf Jean. She was clever about it. Had I written it, though, Jean would have known to start cloaking the minute they mentioned the tour while continuing to hug Vision and Wasp. My girl is a multitasker.

    There would have been no need for a mindwipe because they wouldn't have gotten to see anything.
    For the sake of keeping her nation safe yes I absolutely think Jean and any mutant worth their salt would’ve found a way to keep state secrets. I also don’t think Williams was doing anything OOC for Emma to prop her up, I do think she was undermining Jean a bit as I said before. Emma is all in on Krakoa and does what it takes to make it work.
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  5. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by lefthanded View Post
    Enjoyable read, but the issue treats telepathy as trivial when the implications are staggering.

    Casually considering mind-wiping the Avengers as a throwaway gag (all so Emma can save the day once again while flauting her sexuality)? That is a pretty serious thing, and raises the question of why all the Telepaths don't just mind wipe the bad guys away. Aside from the obvious (there would be no story if they did that), if the argument is because the mutants are good guys and so wouldn't do that, it still makes no sense in this case.

    In the same issue, we have Hope arguing that telepathic methods can be a form of torture, so the portrayal of telepathy abuses is all over the place.

    Tony pointing out that he came prepared to counter Magneto while not having any Psi-blockers also seems like a plot contrivance. (My big pet peeve is how the bad guys always have Psi-blockers that are able to neuter the telepathic heroes, but when villains have access to telepathy, like the Red Skull or Sinister, the heroes all suck).
    I don't think the portrayal of telepathic abuse is all over the place in fact it's perfectly in line with the characters in the story people like Hope and Jean Grey arent the type of person to invade friend's/allies mind's without permission and on the flipside Xavier and Emma have no problem abusing their power.

  6. #171
    Extraordinary Member jwatson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milici View Post
    They are hiding the hatchery because they want to keep resurrection a secret, while one of their guides is Synch who was dead for a long time.
    That was the most sinister scene to me. I felt the hatchery was so sacred that they had all the mutants lined up because if the Avengers did get out of hand every mutant was going to take them on. I also think Synch was in charge of the tour because now that he mimics any power he would have been the first line of defense to turn on the avengers if it went that way.
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  7. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolverine12 View Post
    For the sake of keeping her nation safe yes I absolutely think Jean and any mutant worth their salt would’ve found a way to keep state secrets. I also don’t think Williams was doing anything OOC for Emma to prop her up, I do think she was undermining Jean a bit as I said before. Emma is all in on Krakoa and does what it takes to make it work.
    Well, Emma is one of Williams' favorite characters, if not her favorite; she's admitted as much. (The same goes for Hickman, I believe.) She's also taken shots at Jean and her fans on Twitter before, so I wouldn't be surprised if some of her bias is peeking through. However, I give her credit for writing some fantastic moments for Jean - stellar, A-lister stuff, in fact - especially considering that I didn't expect to see her in this at all, really. Quite frankly, for the most part, I have been surprised by and love what she's done with Jean so far in this miniseries. Again, I literally wasn't expecting anything.

    As for how far Jean would go, if we take into consideration how she's slowly moved away from the Krakoan empire, I'd say her loyalties are fragile right now. Of course, she loves her people - that's why she was the one to bring up and technically found the new team to "represent Krakoa," after which Scott agreed and followed - but I think she's also both weary and wary. The whole enterprise is antithetical to where she stood during X-Men: Red. Also, she left X-Force, removed herself from the QC after being made to choose between helping "the people" and staying on as a member, chose not to accept the offer of reappointment to the QC, founded the new team, and moved the hell out. These shifts paint a picture. Just in time for Inferno? We'll see.

    In either case, had the Avengers gotten to see the Hatchery, she would have done something else besides mindwipe them. Perhaps, she would have just telepathically swayed them to be okay with it; to love it, even. She's done as much to others before. The point is, she made clear, "There must be another way," and I believe, based on her history, that she would have done something. She was just caught off guard. When it was revealed that Emma was in the Hatchery all along and was able to cloak the place from the Avengers' view, well, no harm no foul. Remember, Emma didn't do any mindwiping either. She just had the advantage of being there.

  8. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by loke13 View Post
    I don't think the portrayal of telepathic abuse is all over the place in fact it's perfectly in line with the characters in the story people like Hope and Jean Grey arent the type of person to invade friend's/allies mind's without permission and on the flipside Xavier and Emma have no problem abusing their power.
    Neither Jean nor Hope blindly follow orders, and both see somewhat free agents.

    Jean backed out of telepathic torture of Magneto during Fatal Attractions. She disagreed with him on Sabretooth. She went against the voting majority of the Quiet Council. She is not a yes woman.

  9. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    Do you really think that she would have done that to decades-old friends she was just comforting and mourning with? I agree about the tour part and manufactured ethical dilemma being useless. While I think it was in character, I also think Leah needed to get Emma in there somehow, lol. Still, I give her credit for manipulating the situation just enough to serve her fave and not nerf Jean. She was clever about it. Had I written it, though, Jean would have known to start cloaking the minute they mentioned the tour while continuing to hug Vision and Wasp. My girl is a multitasker.

    There would have been no need for a mindwipe because they wouldn't have gotten to see anything.
    The Avengers would have just seen pods at the most and not known what they are.

    Or the X-Men could have simply not taken the Avengers that way.

    I don’t know if her cloaking the gardens would have been great as it is possible either the Vision or Iron Man’s sensors could detect this. This bit of manipulation would destroy any diplomacy for the future as Jean is probably one of the most trusted X-Men.

  10. #175
    Mighty Member pkingdom's Avatar
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    Its kind of disturbing how much they prepared for either killing or messing with the brains of the Avengers when they only came to collect a corpse. Also, Tony literally had psy blockers on for the Hellfire Gala, so its even weirder that he didn't bring them here.

    Talk about tearing one character down to build another, while the Lorna/Magneto stuff is mostly confined to this story, the entire relaunch has been tearing down Jean to hype up Emma. She's weaker than her and constantly needing her help with things, and Emma has totally eclipsed her in importance.

  11. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by WallStreeter View Post
    The Avengers would have just seen pods at the most and not known what they are.

    Or the X-Men could have simply not taken the Avengers that way.

    I don’t know if her cloaking the gardens would have been great as it is possible either the Vision or Iron Man’s sensors could detect this. This bit of manipulation would destroy any diplomacy for the future as Jean is probably one of the most trusted X-Men.
    As I noted earlier in this thread, Jean has been using her telepathy on robots since the 1960s and as a novice (see X-Men #48 [1968]). I don't think she would have had a problem with or been against cloaking the Hatchery. I do get and even like your theory a bit, though: Emma was willing to take the hit. Still, that's not the situation Leah laid out. If that were the case, she would have made it clear that Emma mindwiped them. The truth is, she made the exact opposite evident.

  12. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkingdom View Post
    Its kind of disturbing how much they prepared for either killing or messing with the brains of the Avengers when they only came to collect a corpse. Also, Tony literally had psy blockers on for the Hellfire Gala, so its even weirder that he didn't bring them here.

    Talk about tearing one character down to build another, while the Lorna/Magneto stuff is mostly confined to this story, the entire relaunch has been tearing down Jean to hype up Emma. She's weaker than her and constantly needing her help with things, and Emma has totally eclipsed her in importance.
    At a certain point, it almost felt like they were hiding drugs. It left me feeling a little slimy enjoying the fiasco, lol. Erik going batshit was just... Well, like Wolverine12, "I’m intrigued by the mystery so far and want to see the answers to the questions we all have."

  13. #178
    Extraordinary Member jwatson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    Well, Emma is one of Williams' favorite characters, if not her favorite; she's admitted as much. (The same goes for Hickman, I believe.) She's also taken shots at Jean and her fans on Twitter before, so I wouldn't be surprised if some of her bias is peeking through. However, I give her credit for writing some fantastic moments for Jean - stellar, A-lister stuff, in fact - especially considering that I didn't expect to see her in this at all, really. Quite frankly, for the most part, I have been surprised by and love what she's done with Jean so far in this miniseries. Again, I literally wasn't expecting anything.

    As for how far Jean would go, if we take into consideration how she's slowly moved away from the Krakoan empire, I'd say her loyalties are fragile right now. Of course, she loves her people - that's why she was the one to bring up and technically found the new team to "represent Krakoa," after which Scott agreed and followed - but I think she's also both weary and wary. The whole enterprise is antithetical to where she stood during X-Men: Red. Also, she left X-Force, removed herself from the QC after being made to choose between helping "the people" and staying on as a member, chose not to accept the offer of reappointment to the QC, founded the new team, and moved the hell out. These shifts paint a picture. Just in time for Inferno? We'll see.

    In either case, had the Avengers gotten to see the Hatchery, she would have done something else besides mindwipe them. Perhaps, she would have just telepathically swayed them to be okay with it; to love it, even. She's done as much to others before. The point is, she made clear, "There must be another way," and I believe, based on her history, that she would have done something. She was just caught off guard. When it was revealed that Emma was in the Hatchery all along and was able to cloak the place from the Avengers' view, well, no harm no foul. Remember, Emma didn't do any mindwiping either. She just had the advantage of being there.
    I'm glad it didn't come to that. Some of my fave parts were the Jean hugs and Rachel calling her mom. I feel it would have been a bigger violation to nudge them to feel a certain way as she would have been directly affecting free will than to erase their memories but once again i'm glad she didn't have to do either.

    Edit: Don't drink wine and post, i was thinking about Jean and Leech in the other thread and somehow Tarn was meant for that but ended up here. lol
    Last edited by jwatson; 09-15-2021 at 07:14 PM.
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  14. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    I'm glad it didn't come to that. Some of my fave parts were the Jean hugs and Rachel calling her mom. I feel it would have been a bigger violation to nudge them to feel a certain way as she would have been directly affecting free will than to erase their memories but once again i'm glad she didn't have to do either. Though i guess Tarn is a biological reality warper so theoretically he could do the opposite of what he did to wildchild if he chose to help that is.
    Chiiile... I was like, "OMFG. I can't believe Leah Williams is feeding me and feeding me well." ::chef's kiss:: Those are the kind of moments that transcend and live on beyond the events throughout which they are peppered. I'll die if she has Jean be the one out of all Krakoa to embrace Wanda the most profoundly. She knows a thing or two about causing damage and being reviled...

  15. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by WallStreeter View Post
    Neither Jean nor Hope blindly follow orders, and both see somewhat free agents.

    Jean backed out of telepathic torture of Magneto during Fatal Attractions. She disagreed with him on Sabretooth. She went against the voting majority of the Quiet Council. She is not a yes woman.
    I mean yeah that's what I was saying. That being said Jean still would have delved into Mags mind.

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