WW's Continuity Constants

[Nyssane]

Honestly? That is really the major sticking point for me in Azzarello's run. There are other things I like and that I dislike, but nothing felt like a kick in the gut more than the fact that there is no magic, no super science, no enlightenment (or at least absolutely none that has been shown in any issue).

Diana bringing that glory is good, but in essence, it's a major slap in the face to women and the antithesis of everything Marston set down. I understand the need/desire to bring some drama and variety to the Amazons (although a lot of that has been there over the years), but to essentially say 'when a group of women get together on an island for 3000 years, they don't advance in any way, shape or form and just remain murderous, barbaric thugs (at least the Amazons we've seen) is just a bad precedent in a medium that is already overwhelmingly testosterone driven.

Thomas Wayne (male) was a great doctor and philanthropist, Jor-El (male) was a great scientist and idealist, and Hippolyta was always the enlightened queen but is now an adulterous liar who leads a backwards clan of man hating sex pirates.

Having Diana fix that doesn't change the statement it makes about Diana's family and about women as a whole. To some (a lot? many? a few?) of us, Wonder Woman and the Amazons were an oasis in a sea of masculinity where all the great things were done by men (look at any list of 'smartest people in the dcu' or check out the 100% male Illuminati over in the Marvel universe as examples)

It's bad enough that Diana went from being a genius scientist to a (so far as we've been shown) warrior without any professional skills or superhuman intelligence, but to see the Amazons dragged down so far just sorta smarts. She started from out of the gate in her first appearance as being brilliant (she invented the purple healing ray and was a skilled healer) who has gradually been dumbed down over the decades while her male counterparts rose up.

The Amazons shouldn't start from a position of needing redemption any more than any other hero's pre-established family members/society. It's like saying that the Green Lantern Corps were a bunch of goons and thugs until Hal Jordan came along and taught them to fight to protect and serve.

So although I see that that's where Azzarello is apparently going? It's not enough for me. I want the old Amazons back, please, generally as an enlightened society but with those among them who aren't all on the same page, so to speak.

This is seriously one of the best posts since the WW Board's inception.

I'd like to see everything established for her continuity... yes, other comics have soft reboots all the time, but WW's is bizarrely overwhelming. Nothing seems to stick anymore. I want Steve and Etta as major WW characters, Hippolyta and the other Amazons (Philippus and Mala included) to return to their old selves, I want Cheetah, Giganta, Silver Swan, etc. to be firmly Wonder Woman's rogues gallery. I don't think it's that much to ask.

[numberthirty]

Since elements of this had come up in other threads, it seems like a thread to discuss the bigger picture might be interesting.

While thinking about Moon Knight earlier, I realized that the character's publication history has some things in common with Wonder Woman's. Different runs with different takes on the character. Some would say those changes have hurt chances for the title being more popular. Her role in the larger DCU changing from run to run. This is obviously exaggerated by the universe wide "sort of" reboot.

So, what is your take on how things have worked in the past and how they will work going forward? What would you prefer?

Keep a "set in stone" background/role that does not change?

Keep some elements concrete while giving future creative teams room to make slight alterations?

Allow entire "reboots" of Wonder Woman, her cast, her power set, role in the larger DCU and so on?

[numberthirty]

Seems like it might also be a chance for longtime fans to talk about this aspect of the tile pre-New52.

[Raiden]

I like what Azzarello has done to Wonder Woman, he has given her strong supporting cast and some interesting new villains. Pre-DCnU Wonder Woman had lots of amazing villains but most of them were underdeveloped. I hope future writers follow what Azzarello has established and i pray that creepy villains like Dr.psycho never return to Wonder Woman's book.

[Dr. Poison]

In thinking back about Wonder Woman over the past 3 decades(I became a fan around the time of the live-action TV show), there have been some reboots over the years. Perez and Azzarello's have been the most drastic of them all. In between, we had a mini-boot with Heinberg. Other than that, we had other writers who kept continuity but made distinct adjustments(i.e. Byrne moved Diana from Boston to Gateway City, tied Diana & Donna together as sisters again, and had Hippolyta go back in time to become the World War II Wonder Woman) but I don't see those instances as soft reboots as little about Diana's personality, powers, or history changed. Every writer before Azz used both the myth and superhero aspects of Diana's world. Every writer except Luke and Azz used Cheetah at some point. Every writer used the Olympians at some point with Perez, Luke, and Simone heavily featuring them in their runs. I don't mind changes if they make sense and make the character and her world better(yes I understand 'better" is a matter of opinion) but I don't want more stories like JMS or Azz's in the near future. I'd like to see Diana and her world go back to the basics that Marston set up with a few modernizations such as:


- Clay origin intact.

- Amazons who are shining examples of feminine accomplishment and achievement.

- Wonder Woman regularly interacting with Steve, Etta, Artemis, Donna, Nemesis, Cassie, and Sirracca.

- The Diana Prince ID restored officially with Diana working at A.R.G.U.S. but doing much more than fetching Steve's lattes and taking shorthand for him.

- Diana fighting a variety of foes such as Cheetah, Giganta, Dr. Poison, Angle Man, Ares, Dr. Cyber, Queen Clea, Dr. Psycho, Baron Blitzkreig, Queen of Fables, Kung, Hades, etc.

- Diana training and mentoring both Donna and Cassie.

- The Invisible Jet/Sky Chariot used from time to time like it was in Superman/Wonder Woman #6.

- Keep the romance with Superman going a bit longer but once that ends, put Diana back with Steve.

[numberthirty]

So, reboot Dr. Poison?

[Dr. Poison]

So, reboot Dr. Poison?

Yes. I realize some don't like reboots with Wonder Woman but I still don't see why Azz's version should be the one that sticks with how much it deviates from what Marston set-up. Even if the next creative team simply ignores the more controversial things that Azz put in place, the scars from Azz's run won't go away until the next reboot.

[numberthirty]

That's the thing. To use the Moon Knight comparison, what stops that run from being rebooted by something the way this run was? Marc is not totally insane in the current run.

It seems like DC is currently leaning towards the cancel/replace model. Let alone Future's End.

[dshipp17]

Something that should be constant with Wonder Woman are her strengths and weaknesses.

1) Wonder Woman is Wonder Woman with her bracelets on. Wonder Woman's power level is equivalent to that Carol Danver's at Marvel; this power level is second to Superman, Martian Manhunter, and Captain Marvel. However, those characters are not out of Wonder Woman's league, but the Justice League episode: For the Man Who Has Everything should be the guiding principle by which Wonder Woman's strength is measured. From there, those other characters should be standardized; moving a planet should be retconned away and left back to the Silver Age archives.

2) Removing Wonder Woman's bracelets either boosts her power level and/or makes her go berzerk; her power level goes to that slightly above Superman's power level. Having her bracelets bound by any living entity renders her weak and removes a significant portion of her fighting skills; basically, she only retains her intelligence; like Superman, this is her Kryptonite.

3) The constant villains in in her rogues gallery should be Dr. Psycho (or, Dr. Psycho and Veronica Cale are a special team unit), Cheetah, Duke of Deception, Inversion, Inside Out Man, Egg-Fu, Silver Swan, Giganta, and Circe. Any character not listed can just be a recurring character, every now and than.

4) The constant supporting characters are the Amazons, Hippolyta, Ferdinand, Zola, Steve Trevor (e.g. but not as a love interest, per se), I'Ching, and the Holliday Girls, which includes Etta Candy.

5) Her base of operation is in a location where Dr. Psycho has his base of operation. Here, Wonder Woman poses in her Diana Price guise, but, eventually, Dr. Psycho will make the connection; even so, this will always remain her base of operation.

6) Her personality is like the other Amazons; you should be able to tell that she's an Amazon by personality; Wonder Woman is not in the outside world, as an ambassador of peace; initially, she left Paradise Island, simply because Hippolyta and the Olympians forbid it, and out of curiosity, spurred by Steve Trevor's crash landing; she stays because she doesn't like the way the outside world is operating, in terms of some of the inequalities between men and women, magnified by her Amazon tendencies; she thinks women should be much more assertive and combative towards men; this personality makes the dynamics between Dr. Psycho and Wonder Woman very intriguing, but also makes it difficult for her to be on the Justice League; she's a bit like Wolverine, as far as being on the Justice League; if a plan does not jive with her feelings, she'll try to go at it alone; she'll be interesting trying to operate in a Middle Eastern country, a place where Dr. Psycho likes to frequent on vacations. After a number of years, we'll than get a Wonder Woman more resembling how she's currently depicted.

[Amazon Swordsman]

For the Man Who Has Everything should be the guiding principle by which Wonder Woman's strength is measured

That's not a good place to start to measure her strength. Diana was having difficulty holding up against mongul. She almost died. I think we can do better than that.

[wagthedog]

That's not a good place to start to measure her strength. Diana was having difficulty holding up against mongul. She almost died. I think we can do better than that.

She hurt her hands while punching Mongul. She was powerful enough to bend steel at the time, methinks, but gets her hands hurt while punching him?!?

Yeah, not a good story to base her strength on. The animated show on Justice League didn't show her off very well either.

[Nyssane]

3) The constant villains in in her rogues gallery should be Dr. Psycho (or, Dr. Psycho and Veronica Cale are a special team unit), Cheetah, Duke of Deception, Inversion, Inside Out Man, Egg-Fu, Silver Swan, Giganta, and Circe. Any character not listed can just be a recurring character, every now and than.

Really? Hundreds of interesting villains and you chose those two?

[Thor2014]

Wonder Woman's constant foes should be...

1. Cheetah. She goes way back to the Golden Age and I've always considered her as Wonder Woman's Lex Luthor.

2. Dr. Psycho. Another Martson creation with an interesting MO, and a character who's been in active use by DC during the past decade. Many interesting stories that can be told with him, he just needs to be established as a Wonder Woman foe in the New 52.

3. Dr. Cyber. A credible threat from the Mod Era, would bring the threat of organized crime to Wonder Woman. Could be merged with Julia Sazia the Mafia Queen of Boston from the 90s.

Those are the big three, but a case could be made for others. For the longest time Circe seemed to have the monopoly on WW villainy, so I would give her a break for a bit longer.

[Sacred Knight]

One small thing I would "change" in the next run: I'd reveal that what we've seen of Paradise Island in this run is not all the island has to offer. I'd say the areas we've seen are more of an outer city. The inner city is one of much greater beauty and majesty, and just say it was something we didn't see because the city was essentially on lockdown with Zeus's disappearance and the drama that was unfolding due to that, with the best warriors on the outside protecting the walls.

[Blacksun]

Really? Hundreds of interesting villains and you chose those two?

Egg Fu is just the coolest